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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
yeah, steveie, that is why crimped/then soldered has been the industry
requirement fot nearly four decades. Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one. No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically superior to a crimped joint. And if it's properly supported, that removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and vibration on the solder junction. I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite the ABYC allowing it? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. In fact, it's a rare boat indeed that doesn't violate any of the ABYC rules. One that meets all of them is pretty much a gauranteed pass. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:12:42 GMT, "MMC" wrote:
Rhys, Have you come up with a model/plan for your LED lighting? No, not other than replacing the cabin "spot" lights (the ones primarily for reading placed over berths and so on) with the bayonet style LEDs that cost $19 but are alleged to last 100,000 hours (I may not last that long, so it's good to go for me!) There was a guy some time ago (in this newsgroup) who had used 12vdc LED trailer lighting (I believe from JC Whitney) in his boat. It gave an amber glow and was mounted under the decks on either side of the cabin. Looked good. That msg string included some very high tech-high price options. I might get string of those LEDs and experiment.... I think that's a great idea. Area lighting and spot or purpose lighting on a boat are two different things. Generally, I have little use for the former: if I have people over for drinks and nosh, a few candles and maybe a kerosene lamp provide all the light and "atmosphere" I require. Essentially, I am talking about cabin spots for reading and maybe for the nav station. Using LEDs for running lights is still an unknown quantity for me, but I am considering equipping my Zodiac tender with an LED tricolour run off the Honda OB alternator (magneto?), all of which is 12 VDC. As I am under 10 HP, I don't legally require nav lights, but I prefer to be seen as I use the calm late nights to plane around Toronto Island, which is heavily trafficked with "disco boats". R. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:06:08 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote: This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire. yes, I agree. Older boats seem to have "cheaped out" with wire runs, and it's a no-brainer to get thicker wire--stranded is preferred--and to see immediate results at the amp meter and the masthead. R. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Actually the National Electrical Code is updated every three years, not
every year. While it does date back to the early years of the last century, it has kept up to date with new materials and technology. As an example, they added a section on recharging stations for electric powered cars some time ago. There are sections on computer networks and wiring systems to allow for the use of switching power supplies. ( They can overload the neutral conductor.) Some areas do not 'adopt' the NEC as their standards. The state of Oregon reviews it each issue, adds their own 'Adendum' and adopts the package about six months after issue. The NEC has been re-written to make itself more universally accepted. Some foreign countries are considering using it for their requirements. It is far from obsolete. Rusty O |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Does MacGregor count?
SV wrote Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... BB |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by doing it, they don't do it. Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just crimped. Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits are not a factor. Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more money to solder. I'd love to see that. Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as you have claimed. Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs, noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring. Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to who's just blowing smoke. Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc. Steve |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea: My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I think, would be to have a second plug at the bow end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck that way as well. In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore power system. This is potentially very dangerous. The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise. If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time. And, since I have already barged in he Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance that should be followed, but bigger is better. Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have happened to me if it hadn't popped? GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air, expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 23:05:13 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by doing it, they don't do it. Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just crimped. Wow! You've just dropped all the way to MORON with that statement! You can't defend your position with anything better than that? You're finished. Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits are not a factor. Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more money to solder. I'd love to see that. Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as you have claimed. Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none do. How about that? Now, you provide at least ONE successful product liability lawsuit on a boat manufacturer that was due to properly soldered and supported connections. If you're claiming that's why they don't solder, you should be able to back that claim up. Of couse, you can't. Because it's wrong. Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs, noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring. Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to who's just blowing smoke. Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc. You are as anonymous as I am, or maybe even more so, and you have yet You don't even know the meaning of the word anonymous? Sheesh! to provide a contact at even ONE manufacturer who will support your wild theories. If the whole world agrees with you, then surely you can come up with ONE manufacturer? Nope, you can't! Even though there probably are manufactures that solder their wiring, I've already agreed several times (above and in previous post) that manufactureres don't use solder on their wiring because I just don't care to find any that do since it doesn't matter a single bit to my argument that it's ok for *you* to solder your wiring as long as it's done properly. How much more do you want then me agreeing that manufacturers don't solder their wiring? Are you going to show your lack of comprehension again and ask me yet another time to find ONE manufacturer that solders? Oh, and I wouldn't say that the whole world agrees with me. But the ones who do a 1) ABYC allows soldered wiring on boats if it conformes to ABYC E-8.15.19. 2) NASA allows soldered wiring on all vehicles (including the Space Shuttle) and critical support system if it conforms to NSTS 5300.4(1D-2), NASA-STD-8739.3, or NHB 5300.4(3A-1). 3) US Navy allows soldered wiring on aircraft and ships if the joint is properly made and supported. I've had cables made and installed on Navy aircraft that used soldered connections between stranded wire and cup pins which passed inspection since they were supported by a strain relief built into the plug. 4) Calder 5) All of the marine surveyors I've personally dealt with who have passed boats for insurance surveys that have at least some wiring connections soldered. Now it's your turn to provide a single lawsuit due to properly soldered wiring. You've claimed that's why they don't solder so you should be able to support that claim. Or show where a boat failed an insurance survey due to properly soldered wiring. You've claimed a boat with properly soldered wiring will fail an insurance survey so you should be able to support that claim as well. Those are both specific allegations you've made, both of which are unsubstantiated and just plain wrong. I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you? Can you provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations? Steve |
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