Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
 

I like the idea of shore power connectors at both ends of
a longer boat...less clutter. I've stepped on more power
cords (and rolled my ankle) on the side decks than I care
to admit. Of course, I've rolled my ankle on lines too..:)

The below postings bring up an interesting question though.
If a "dual feed" setup was desired,what would be the proper
configuration?
1. Both shore power lines brought to the AC panel, and wired
to a 2-pole 2-throw center-off switch, followed by a circuit
breaker....(ensures no power to the inactive "branch")
2. Each shore power line fed to their own circuit breakers,
then to the switch...(just in case the switch somehow goes foobar)
3. A "box" inside of which the shore power lines terminate in
female receptacles, and a short jumper cord selects which
ever circuit was desired...( two more connections to worry about)
4. Any other methods? How would you wire it?
Another question...would it be wise to leave the safety grounds and
nuetrals connected together, and only select only the hot side?
(My answer would be no...the reason should be obvious)
Norm B


On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:15:52 -0400, Sam wrote:


Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:


My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.


In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both
the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore
power system. This is potentially very dangerous.

The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words
metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and
apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone
opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise.

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.

And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said.

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
 

Sam,
That is really good advice, but I should add that a GFCI will also save very
serious electric corrosion if a leak should occur. Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line. Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection. Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard and any leak anywhere in that distribution
net will use your hull as the preferred return path. This will create severe
electric corrosion on your boat and you will never know why.
Steve
"Sam" wrote in message
...

Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:


My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.


In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both
the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore
power system. This is potentially very dangerous.

The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words
metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and
apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone
opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise.

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.

And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I
said.

Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
 

"dazed and confuzed" wrote in message
...
wrote:


if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are
sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the
terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not
melt before the breaker trips.

AND both the wire and terminal were properly heated to the proper
temperature during soldering (no cold joints) AND the connection was free of
contaminants ( no old corroded wires or terminals)

In general, solder should not be used as a means of mechanical connection.

I am not familiar with the various codes and standards related to boats. I
am familiar with various codes and standards as related to standard industry
and household, primarily Underwriter's Laboratories (UL) and CSA. For these
safety agencies, no primary wires may be secure by means of solder alone.

Solder can give you a superior connection over crimp. In the event that the
connection is bad, however, a soldered connection can deteriorate very
quickly.

Rod

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
 

Sam,,
You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected. Just
have them in every circuit. You can also install a GFCI circuit breaker
which also protects that circuit. But in all, good advice.
Paul

"Sam" wrote in message
...
snipped
Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I
said.

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
 

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...


Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line.


To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct
violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never
pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it
wire this way it could create issues with the insurance.

You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to
separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity of
the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the
weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause
problems.

Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection.

Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you
could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then
make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in
water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't corroded
away.


Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard

Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying
that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path
through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true.

Rod

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
 

"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote...

You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected.
Just
have them in every circuit.

ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, and ONLY if it is the first
outlet in the circuit and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired
correctly!

Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
 

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:46:12 GMT, wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:21:58 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote:

Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was
superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales
tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley
uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in
a heartbeat if it was better.

And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any
manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head
since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is
probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none
do. How about that?


Please explain why no boat manufacturers use solder. Be specific, and
provide examples, cites and anything else you wish as evidence. The
claim that no manufacturers use solder because of cost is absurd, and
I have pointed out why.

Lol. You really don't believe the extravagent cost of properly
soldering the wiring for a marginal benefit in conductivity is why they
don't do it? You're too funny.:)

Ok, let me ask you this: how many boat manufacturers do you think
properly crimp every connection? And by properly, I mean by using a
racheting type mil-spec crimp tool that makes a 360 degree crimp that
cold welds the connector to the wire, not just a dimple that most crimp
tools make.

I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you?

According to Steven Shelikoff, (at least that's the "name" he uses on
usenet) no manufacturers use solder for boat wiring.

Um, no. Please get it right. It's according to the anonymous
that no manufacturers use solder for boat
wiring. I'm just willing to let that slide because I don't feel like
trying to prove you wrong on that point since whether or not
manufacturers use solder has no bearing on the discussion of whether
it's ok for YOU to use solder. You have yet to provide any evidence of
your claim that the reason boat manufacturers don't properly solder
their wiring is due to product liability lawsuits. Can you find ONE
manufacturer who will support that allegation? Can you find ONE
successful lawsuit arising from a problem with properly soldered wiring?
If you are correct that liability lawsuits is the reason manufacturers
don't do it, there will be at lease one case.

Now I don't think you'll find a single manufacturer who gold plates
their tiller either. But that doesn't mean you can't gold plate your
tiller if you want to, and it will still pass an insurance survey. Do
you think manufacturers don't gold plate their tillers because of
product liability reasons? lol

Can you
provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations?


I just did.

You did? Where? Where's the single shred of evidence that supports
your claim that if you have soldered connections on your boat it will
not pass an insurance survey? Where's the single shred of evidence that
supports your claim that the reason boat manufacturers don't use
properly soldered connections is because of product liability lawsuits?

You have yet to provide ONE manufacturer who says the reason they don't
properly solder their wiring is because of product liability reasons and
have yet to provide ONE example of a boat that didn't pass an insurance
survey due to properly soldered wiring.

In trying to defend your position, you've disagreed with the ABYC, NASA,
Navy, Calder and many marine surveyors.

Now that it's been proven you're wrong and you have nothing to support
your assertions, there's no shame in admitting you're wrong, learning
from it and moving on. Continuing to try and defend the indefensible
and stooping to personal insults out of your frustration from not being
able to provide any proof of your wild unsubstantiated allegations only
makes you look foolish.

Steve

Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
 

schlackoff, go to sleep. come back three days from now.



On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:46:12 GMT, wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:21:58 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote:

Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was
superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales
tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley
uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in
a heartbeat if it was better.

And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any
manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head
since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is
probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none
do. How about that?


Please explain why no boat manufacturers use solder. Be specific, and
provide examples, cites and anything else you wish as evidence. The
claim that no manufacturers use solder because of cost is absurd, and
I have pointed out why.

Lol. You really don't believe the extravagent cost of properly
soldering the wiring for a marginal benefit in conductivity is why they
don't do it? You're too funny.:)

Ok, let me ask you this: how many boat manufacturers do you think
properly crimp every connection? And by properly, I mean by using a
racheting type mil-spec crimp tool that makes a 360 degree crimp that
cold welds the connector to the wire, not just a dimple that most crimp
tools make.

I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you?

According to Steven Shelikoff, (at least that's the "name" he uses on
usenet) no manufacturers use solder for boat wiring.

Um, no. Please get it right. It's according to the anonymous
that no manufacturers use solder for boat
wiring. I'm just willing to let that slide because I don't feel like
trying to prove you wrong on that point since whether or not
manufacturers use solder has no bearing on the discussion of whether
it's ok for YOU to use solder. You have yet to provide any evidence of
your claim that the reason boat manufacturers don't properly solder
their wiring is due to product liability lawsuits. Can you find ONE
manufacturer who will support that allegation? Can you find ONE
successful lawsuit arising from a problem with properly soldered wiring?
If you are correct that liability lawsuits is the reason manufacturers
don't do it, there will be at lease one case.

Now I don't think you'll find a single manufacturer who gold plates
their tiller either. But that doesn't mean you can't gold plate your
tiller if you want to, and it will still pass an insurance survey. Do
you think manufacturers don't gold plate their tillers because of
product liability reasons? lol

Can you
provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations?


I just di

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
 

In article ,
engsol wrote:


Norm B


I sent you an nice return email, Norm, but it bounced due to a
nonexistant
email address..... email me a good address and I will send it again....


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
 

Somebody wrote:

Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was
superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales
tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley
uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in
a heartbeat if it was better.

Boat builders are basically carpenters, not electrical engineers.

When it comes to things electrical, boat builders have a tough time figuring
out how to get out of the rain.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures