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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Ytter wrote:
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter Use tinned, stranded wire. The stranded wire is more flexible and less likely to break. The tinning prevents salt water/air from seeping under the insulation and corroding the wire. Tom of the Swee****er Sea |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring
boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter solid wire work hardens and breaks under vibration. Anyone who suggested you use solid wire is not someone you want to listen to again. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
The normal rolling, rocking and especially pounding that boats do can be
enough to impart some motion on any unsupported wires. It doesn't have to be much, just repeated enough times so that the point where the wire is flexing work hardens. There really is a reason people use the more expensive stranded & tinned wire on boats. Ytter wrote: WHAT KIND OF VIBRATIONS YOU HAVE ON THE SAILBOAT EXCEPT ENGINE AREA ? "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter solid wire work hardens and breaks under vibration. Anyone who suggested you use solid wire is not someone you want to listen to again. -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring
boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
WHAT KIND OF VIBRATIONS YOU HAVE ON THE SAILBOAT EXCEPT ENGINE AREA ?
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter solid wire work hardens and breaks under vibration. Anyone who suggested you use solid wire is not someone you want to listen to again. how many do you need? want more? waves lapping, hobby horsing, harmonics from wind against the rigging, harmonics against the sails, harmonics against the hull, harmonics from climbing the wave ... .... plus second harmonics of all of the above plus others .. plus third harmonics of all of the above plus others .. .... plus fourth harmonics ... |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
wow, amazing informatioin from a guy without any boating experience!
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I've recently wondered about the expense of tinned wire when all my wiring
problems come from the terminals and connections on my 30 year old boat with original wiring. I know tinned is the latest and greatest, but not too many years back the latest and greatest was lamp cord. I'm sure there is a new latest and greatest just around the corner........ MMC "Tom Shilson" wrote in message ... Ytter wrote: I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter Use tinned, stranded wire. The stranded wire is more flexible and less likely to break. The tinning prevents salt water/air from seeping under the insulation and corroding the wire. Tom of the Swee****er Sea |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Subject
If you have to ask that question, don't even consider the job. Boats are wired with tinned stranded wire based on some solid engineering. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Wed, 26 May 2004 18:21:36 -0700, "Ytter" wrote:
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter I'd use stranded. The only application of solid wire I recall was in telephone central offices, and telephone jack wiring in houses. As others pointed out, it doesn't take much flexing to work-harden solid wire and crack. But even stranded needs strain-reliefs and clamps. Norm B |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
WHAT KIND OF VIBRATIONS YOU HAVE ON THE SAILBOAT EXCEPT ENGINE AREA ?
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter solid wire work hardens and breaks under vibration. Anyone who suggested you use solid wire is not someone you want to listen to again. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Never use solid core wire on anything that moves, vibrates, or flexes- Cars,
boats, elevators, trains, etc. Solid wire is for buildings, signs, etc, that never move. Movement will eventually break the wire (or just cause it to weaken, creating a point of resistance that will be a fire hazard) "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
engsol wrote:
On Wed, 26 May 2004 18:21:36 -0700, "Ytter" wrote: I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter I'd use stranded. The only application of solid wire I recall was in telephone central offices, and telephone jack wiring in houses. As others pointed out, it doesn't take much flexing to work-harden solid wire and crack. But even stranded needs strain-reliefs and clamps. Norm B Solid wire like Romex is used where you can attach it to some fixed surface - like a building especially inside of walls. In that application (i.e. stapled or attached to the building) stranded wire will not work because the strands will work against the attachment and eventually the strands will break and cause a short. Stranded wire isn't allowed inside of walls IIRC, nor can you tie or restrict the movement of a stranded wire. Tinned wire is just something to keep the exposed ends from corroding. We've used welding cable to wire up batteries in an electric car and it works fine. It may not have as long a life as tinned wire but it depends on how long you want it to last and whether the cost is worth it to you. I understand that Home Depot in Tampa carries tinned wire, but I've never seen it anywhere else. The main thing is to use a large enough gauge wire for your application. grandma Rosalie |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
HULL FLEXING! WAVE INDUCED VIBRATION! POUNDING! DOCKING! STICK WITH TINNED
MULTISTRAND MARINE WIRE! CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? ;-) -- Keith __ The original point and click interface was a Smith and Wesson. "Ytter" wrote in message ... WHAT KIND OF VIBRATIONS YOU HAVE ON THE SAILBOAT EXCEPT ENGINE AREA ? |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Wed, 26 May 2004 18:21:36 -0700, "Ytter"
wrote (with possible editing): I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter I'll agree with everyone else - tinned, stranded wire is the best wire to use. In addition, if the boat is fiberglass, you should use "wire loom" for conductors which can rub against the hull or any other unfinished fiberglass surface. The reason is that unfinished fiberglass is quite abrasive. You can buy wire loom at auto parts stores - it's like a flexible plastic pipe slit up the side. It provides a smooth interior which will not abrade the insulation. -- Larry Email to rapp at lmr dot com |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Boats are wired with tinned stranded wire based on some solid engineering."
Sounds like a Bush press release none answer. This guy has a legitimate question in spirit with the newsgroup. "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message link.net... Subject If you have to ask that question, don't even consider the job. Boats are wired with tinned stranded wire based on some solid engineering. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
When boat manufacturers install 110v wiring in a boat at
the factory for the "house" 110v circuits (like lights, plugs, A/C, tv, etc..) what do they use? do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going to this expense. anyone? "Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message om... Never use solid core wire on anything that moves, vibrates, or flexes- Cars, boats, elevators, trains, etc. Solid wire is for buildings, signs, etc, that never move. Movement will eventually break the wire (or just cause it to weaken, creating a point of resistance that will be a fire hazard) "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message om...
Never use solid core wire on anything that moves, vibrates, or flexes- Cars, boats, elevators, trains, etc. Solid wire is for buildings, signs, etc, that never move. Movement will eventually break the wire (or just cause it to weaken, creating a point of resistance that will be a fire hazard) Not to mention that stranded wire allows for more, in laymens terms, flow of energy, less resistance in stranded wire... has to do with surface area, but that is another story. Anyway, I almost agree with the guy that said "if you have to ask,...", except I will say, if you have to ask, you have a lot more reading to do :) Hopefully, your origional question has been answered here. Scotty "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
All the reasons given here for the use of stranded wire are for the most
part correct and reason enough to use tinned stranded wire. I am sure that the only reason you are disuaded from using real marine wire is cost, but I just bought 1000' of 14/2 for 24 cents a foot he http://www.blackav.com/bai.php?page=11 their website was out of commission last I checked, but their phone number is 724-379-8628 To answer all the sceptics, YES, this is tinned, stranded, duplex UL1426 CG approved marine wire. David S/V Nausicaa |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Ytter,
As a rule you should use FINE tin plated stranded wire. It should be sheathed with either fiberglass or metal braiding. It can be ordered from an industrial wire supply house. It cost more than other type wire, but the overall cost difference at the job level is minimal. Just as importantly, you should consider the mode of most common failure of wiring. That is corrosion at the wire terminal interface. To avoid the moisture migration cause, you should use crimp terminals without insulation and a crimping tool that provides enough pressure that the terminal to wire connection actually welds. Then shrink tubing is applied and after the terminal is installed the entire connection should be painted with a rubber compound. This also can be ordered from the industrial supplier or directly from OMC. Steve "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? The proper wire to use is stranded. As others have said, the reason for this is that it is better for dealing with vibration. Another reason that YOU should use the proper wire is that it could become very important if you ever plan on selling this boat. If a prospective buyer has a survey done and the surveyor finds (and he should) that the boat has been rewired with solid wire you may be looking at a rather expensive job to restore the boat to a proper wiring configuration. Rod McInnis |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Michael Sutton" wrote in message om... When boat manufacturers install 110v wiring in a boat at the factory for the "house" 110v circuits (like lights, plugs, A/C, tv, etc..) what do they use? Stranded wire. Note that the electrical outlets are different than the typical household outlets as a result. An outlet that is designed for solid wire won't work for stranded. Rod |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thursday 27 May 2004 3:18 pm in rec.boats.cruising L. M. Rappaport wrote:
I'll agree with everyone else - tinned, stranded wire is the best wire to use. In addition, if the boat is fiberglass, you should use "wire loom" for conductors which can rub against the hull or any other unfinished fiberglass surface. The reason is that unfinished fiberglass is quite abrasive. You can buy wire loom at auto parts stores - it's like a flexible plastic pipe slit up the side. It provides a smooth interior which will not abrade the insulation. I prefer to use spirothene because it makes for a tighter bundle and it is easier to drop out individual wires along the way. Another much neater method is to lace the loom with waxed twine. This looks really neat and takes up a lot less space than wireloom or spirothene, but needs separate protection where rubbing is likely. Another very important point is that shrinktube should always be used to protect the transition between the wire and a lug or terminal. This is a weak point where any vibration or movement will naturally be concentrated. -- My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently deleted. Send only plain text. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Rod McInnis wrote: Stranded wire. Note that the electrical outlets are different than the typical household outlets as a result. An outlet that is designed for solid wire won't work for stranded. They are exactly the same. You just don't use the push in connector. Use the screw terminals with crimp on ring terminals. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail.
I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. "Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... Ytter, As a rule you should use FINE tin plated stranded wire. It should be sheathed with either fiberglass or metal braiding. It can be ordered from an industrial wire supply house. It cost more than other type wire, but the overall cost difference at the job level is minimal. Just as importantly, you should consider the mode of most common failure of wiring. That is corrosion at the wire terminal interface. To avoid the moisture migration cause, you should use crimp terminals without insulation and a crimping tool that provides enough pressure that the terminal to wire connection actually welds. Then shrink tubing is applied and after the terminal is installed the entire connection should be painted with a rubber compound. This also can be ordered from the industrial supplier or directly from OMC. Steve "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
QLW wrote:
I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
rhys wrote:
On 27 May 2004 07:54:14 -0700, (Michael Sutton) wrote: do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going to this expense. Well, perhaps my experience will be instructive. The panel is little metal toggle switch with glass fuse holders with a common positive side. Most of the DC power lines are very narrow, 20 or 22 gauge, to a terminal block in the head and aft and forward to running lights. I replaced all mast wires with 12 gauge to spreader lights, steaming and deck lights and 14 gauge to trilight and anchor light. All DC wiring is tinned and stranded. Wow, what a difference. Wait until I upgrade the cabin wiring and replace the panel. The only exception to this is perhaps I will leave the cabin lights with the old wiring, which is not in bad condition, if I switch from 12 VDC auto light bulbs to LEDs...the LEDs draw so little it is hardly worth the effort of drawing the cables through cabinetry, etc. I also replaced the stern light wire with 16 gauge to the panel. Again, a gratifying jump in brightness. This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
dazed and confuzed wrote:
Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. I agree. The crimp is for a solid mechanical connection. The solder gives a good electrical connection and resists corrosion. Tom of the Swee****er Sea |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Glenn Ashmore" writes: They are exactly the same. You just don't use the push in connector. Use the screw terminals with crimp on ring terminals. There are at least 4 grades of duplex receptacles. 1) The "strip and stuff" residential designed for solid wire. You strip the wire then stuff it in the hole on the back of the receptacle. Strictly a low cost residential device. 2) Light Commercial grade designed for either solid or stranded wire, a side wired device. 3) "Spec Grade", heavy duty industrial, designed for either solid or stranded wire. Can be back or side wired. 4) "Hospital Grade", same as spec grade except with better performance characteristics for the most difficult of all receptacle applications, the hospital. Hospital grade devices have a green dot on the face. None of these devices are designed to require terminals, but if used in a side wired application, the terminal certainly should NOT be soldered to the wire. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
what an absurd response! For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; therefore stranded wire is best for high current loads of Dc. If the wire is well supported and larger than necessary for the rated current AND cheap enough vs stranded, then go with it. Otherwise, stranded. rick On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:05:29 GMT, Lew Hodgett wrote: Subject If you have to ask that question, don't even consider the job. Boats are wired with tinned stranded wire based on some solid engineering. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Subject: Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
From: none Date: 5/27/2004 9:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: what an absurd response! For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; therefore stranded wire is best for high current loads of Dc. If the wire is well supported and larger than necessary for the rated current AND cheap enough vs stranded, then go with it. Otherwise, stranded. rick When you go to sell the boat the surveyor will note that the electrical system doesn't meet ABYC electrical standards. Stranded, captive terminals, and no wire nuts. Dennis |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
One argument against soldered connections is that the molten solder can wick
up into the stranded wire and stiffen the wire back to a hard spot which, being concealed by the insulation, can fatigue without being seen. QLW wrote: I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
In article ,
says... For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; Hmm.. Additionally, that's wrong. -- Regards, Terry King ...In The Woods In Vermont "The one who dies with the most parts LOSES! What do you need??" |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
1) Skin effect is of concern - but only at frequencies well above
those used for power transmission. Start thinking about it at perhaps 5 MHz up. Skin effect is actually absent at DC [in response to another well-intentioned post from someone else...] 2) an equal diameter of stranded and solid power line passing equal currents, shows the stranded line getting hotter, with more volt drop, because the resistance per unit length is higher for stranded. Please don't share knowledge with us, willing or not, unless you're sure. There's always someone to spot a misconception. Brian W On Thu, 27 May 2004 22:29:52 -0300, none wrote: what an absurd response! For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; therefore stranded wire is best for high current loads of Dc. If the wire is well supported and larger than necessary for the rated current AND cheap enough vs stranded, then go with it. Otherwise, stranded. rick On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:05:29 GMT, Lew Hodgett wrote: Subject If you have to ask that question, don't even consider the job. Boats are wired with tinned stranded wire based on some solid engineering. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Oh sure they will. You can either put the bare wire there, or fix a terminal
to the wire and fasten it to the screw on the side. -- Keith __ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. "Rod McInnis" wrote in message ... "Michael Sutton" wrote in message om... When boat manufacturers install 110v wiring in a boat at the factory for the "house" 110v circuits (like lights, plugs, A/C, tv, etc..) what do they use? Stranded wire. Note that the electrical outlets are different than the typical household outlets as a result. An outlet that is designed for solid wire won't work for stranded. Rod |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:G5vtc.3$W01.0@okepread01... Note that the electrical outlets are different than the typical household outlets as a result. An outlet that is designed for solid wire won't work for stranded. They are exactly the same. You just don't use the push in connector. Use the screw terminals with crimp on ring terminals. The marine grade electrical outlets that I have used all have a clamp system for securing stranded wire. You insert the wire into the hole in the back, just like the household units. But instead of it being a "one way" catch, the screw on the side tightens down the clamp. Rod |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"none" wrote in message ... For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; You have that backwards. Skin effect is an AC phenomenon. Here, check out this web page from Institute for Telecommunications Sciences: http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-033/_4923.htm Note that skin effect is only significant at high frequencies. There is no significant skin effect at 60 cycle per second. Rod |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I didn't know that. Why is it not safe? What problems can it cause?
Thanks - Dan wrote: On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:47 -0500, dazed and confuzed wrote: QLW wrote: I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
NEVER solder an electrical connection within a vehicle or any machine that
is subject to motion or vibration. The solder creates a stress concentration at the end of the solder, which in time will cause the wire to break right at the joint. That is why it should never be done. Those that have done this and not experienced a failure are simply lucky. Steve "QLW" wrote in message ... I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. "Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... Ytter, As a rule you should use FINE tin plated stranded wire. It should be sheathed with either fiberglass or metal braiding. It can be ordered from an industrial wire supply house. It cost more than other type wire, but the overall cost difference at the job level is minimal. Just as importantly, you should consider the mode of most common failure of wiring. That is corrosion at the wire terminal interface. To avoid the moisture migration cause, you should use crimp terminals without insulation and a crimping tool that provides enough pressure that the terminal to wire connection actually welds. Then shrink tubing is applied and after the terminal is installed the entire connection should be painted with a rubber compound. This also can be ordered from the industrial supplier or directly from OMC. Steve "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
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