genee/rickie claim that oil pumps have to spin for some time to draw a prime.

I am trying to visualize how an oil pump draws a prime, particularly on oil at
say 15 degrees. In order to draw a prime the pump would have to evacuate the
air above the oil and below the pump, the difference in air pressure on the
evacuated side vs ambient air pressure leaves no more than a few pounds of
pressure total (can't be more than 14.7# total, for that is atmospheric
pressure). Then the oil would have to vaporize and then be drawn into the
pump, then to be compressed back to liquid to then be pumped to the bearings
needing pressure oil.

At even normal room temperature engine starts -- let alone cold weather engine
starts -- it would seem an oil pump requiring a prime to work might take
several minutes engine run time to begin to pump even small amounts of oil.
Anyone know how the engine designers allow for this and still make the engines
last more than a minute or so? Anyone know of which engine designs have oil
pumps that have to pull oil up before pressurizing it? How do they get the oil
volume on such oil pumps?

On 27 Jun 2004 13:49:19 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say:

I am trying to visualize how an oil pump draws a prime, particularly on oil at
say 15 degrees.

You should take up a new hobby. Glassblowing can be relaxing.

you mean their are no weird ducks like genee or rickie or stevie in glass
blowing?

I do suppose those who try to fix glass using a hammer don't stay at it as long
as those who fix engines with a hammer.

From: "Steve Daniels, Seek of Spam"
Date: 6/27/2004 11:14 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On 27 Jun 2004 13:49:19 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say:

I am trying to visualize how an oil pump draws a prime, particularly on oil
at
say 15 degrees.

You should take up a new hobby. Glassblowing can be relaxing.

On 27 Jun 2004 15:35:46 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say:

you mean their are no weird ducks like genee or rickie or stevie in glass
blowing?

No, actually I was thinking you could put all that hot air to
some good use.

see, there is your problem. you thought you were thinking.

btw, wanna inform us as to how an oil pump draws a prime? We were wondering.

From: "Steve Daniels, Seek of Spam"
Date: 6/27/2004 11:59 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On 27 Jun 2004 15:35:46 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say:

you mean their are no weird ducks like genee or rickie or stevie in glass
blowing?

No, actually I was thinking you could put all that hot air to
some good use.

On 27 Jun 2004 16:11:01 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say:

see, there is your problem. you thought you were thinking.

You know, with a little effort you might be able to write some
interesting flames. "You're stupid" is getting a bit worn 'round
the hems, wouldn't you say?

btw, wanna inform us as to how an oil pump draws a prime? We were wondering.

A careful reading of the thread will show that I have no
position, opinion, nor interest in the operation of various oil
pumps.

A careful reading of the thread will show that I have no
position, opinion, nor interest in the operation of various oil
pumps.


so, why you open your mouth?

see, there is your problem. you thought you were thinking.

You know, with a little effort you might be able to write some
interesting flames. "You're stupid" is getting a bit worn 'round
the hems, wouldn't you say?

wasn't intended to be a flame, stevie, but rather an expression of disgust at
the mentally lazy.

JAXAshby wrote:
genee/rickie claim that oil pumps have to spin for some time to draw a prime.

I am trying to visualize how an oil pump draws a prime, particularly on oil at
say 15 degrees. In order to draw a prime the pump would have to evacuate the
air above the oil and below the pump,

correct

the difference in air pressure on the
evacuated side vs ambient air pressure leaves no more than a few pounds of
pressure total (can't be more than 14.7# total, for that is atmospheric
pressure).

correct

Then the oil would have to vaporize and then be drawn into the
pump, then to be compressed back to liquid to then be pumped to the bearings
needing pressure oil.

The pumped fluid doesn't vaporize. At this point, the ambient air
pressure through the vent (e.g. the PCV on an engine crankcase) is
higher than the pressure in the line evacuated by the pump. The
differental pressure (even if only a couple of psi) pushes oil up to the
impeller or positive displacement device in the pump. The differential
pressure must be greater than the weight of the oil in the line to prime
the pump (ambient air pressure inlet pressure plus weight of pumped
fluid). The greater the difference, the faster the prime and the greater
the available suction head (distance pump can be above steady state
fluid level). I believe in most conditions that the effect of viscosity
is limited to "how long" and not "if" priming takes place. This assumes
the pump can run dry indefinitely and ignores second-order effects like
friction of the fluid against the line.

dave

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news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
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I once got so worried about start-up oil pressure on an engine I'd just
built that I made up a small accumulator with a solinoid valve run from the
ignition. The idea was to isolate about 100cc of oil under pressure when the
engine was turned off and re-introduce that back into the system when the
ignition was turned on next time.

Supposedly 40% of engine wear occures when the engine is cold but that
wasn't why I did it, the engine was required to go on full load immediately
on startup and I hoped the instant oil pressure would protect it better.

It did produce almost instant start-up pressure but I've got no idea how
much it would affected engine life, that engine has only done 200 Hrs in the
last 10 years or so.

Mark..


"Dave Skolnick" wrote in message
news:VIDDc.1384$fd3.81@lakeread04...
JAXAshby wrote:
genee/rickie claim that oil pumps have to spin for some time to draw a
prime.

I am trying to visualize how an oil pump draws a prime, particularly on
oil at
say 15 degrees. In order to draw a prime the pump would have to
evacuate the
air above the oil and below the pump,

correct

the difference in air pressure on the
evacuated side vs ambient air pressure leaves no more than a few pounds
of
pressure total (can't be more than 14.7# total, for that is atmospheric
pressure).

correct

Then the oil would have to vaporize and then be drawn into the
pump, then to be compressed back to liquid to then be pumped to the
bearings
needing pressure oil.

The pumped fluid doesn't vaporize. At this point, the ambient air
pressure through the vent (e.g. the PCV on an engine crankcase) is
higher than the pressure in the line evacuated by the pump. The
differental pressure (even if only a couple of psi) pushes oil up to the
impeller or positive displacement device in the pump. The differential
pressure must be greater than the weight of the oil in the line to prime
the pump (ambient air pressure inlet pressure plus weight of pumped
fluid). The greater the difference, the faster the prime and the greater
the available suction head (distance pump can be above steady state
fluid level). I believe in most conditions that the effect of viscosity
is limited to "how long" and not "if" priming takes place. This assumes
the pump can run dry indefinitely and ignores second-order effects like
friction of the fluid against the line.

dave

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.