Hi, Neal,

You'll really need to put gauges on both sides to see what's going on.

I spent MONTHS trying to sort out my Frigoboat; ultimately it failed, and I
had to replace it. The cause is known, but the stimulus is uncertain (I'm
one of only hundreds of similar experiences). The end result was the same.

However...

In the time I messed with it, I had wildly varying pressures. My issues
were a blockage which would sometimes move, or not.

Your gauges should have a temperature indication on them, and the suction
side should read colder the lower the pressure. FWIW, +15psi should be
about -8°F 134a temp. If you have a plate-mounted thermistor or equivalent
for on/off, you could compare temps of that point (where it mounts) to the
indicated temperature, with an IR heat sensor. It may not be exact (my and
my technician's didn't agree, even with fresh batteries in both, and neither
agreed with the thermistor's readout, nor the analog thermometer we hung in
there, e.g.) but it will give you an indication of whether your gauges are
correct. I'm assuming you've zeroed the gauge when not using it. I'm also
assuming you purge your gauge line before attaching it, whether by bleeding
or a can, the other way.

When you get the lockdown/restart, where is the frost on your suction side?
Right at the evaporator/cold plate-to-pipe? Somewhat inside it? Somewhere
down the tube? Do you have an expansion valve, capillary tube, or constant
pressure valve controlling your evaporation/boil/superheat point? Do you
have a receiver/drier and sight glass? If so, any bubbles in the sight
glass?

In my new system, there's a CPV, and a pretty good tolerance for over/under
charging as a result. YMMV of course.

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
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- Dr. Samuel Johnson

On Sun, 5 Oct 2014 13:56:12 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Neal,

You'll really need to put gauges on both sides to see what's going on.

I spent MONTHS trying to sort out my Frigoboat; ultimately it failed, and I
had to replace it. The cause is known, but the stimulus is uncertain (I'm
one of only hundreds of similar experiences). The end result was the same.

However...

In the time I messed with it, I had wildly varying pressures. My issues
were a blockage which would sometimes move, or not.

Your gauges should have a temperature indication on them, and the suction
side should read colder the lower the pressure. FWIW, +15psi should be
about -8°F 134a temp. If you have a plate-mounted thermistor or equivalent
for on/off, you could compare temps of that point (where it mounts) to the
indicated temperature, with an IR heat sensor. It may not be exact (my and
my technician's didn't agree, even with fresh batteries in both, and neither
agreed with the thermistor's readout, nor the analog thermometer we hung in
there, e.g.) but it will give you an indication of whether your gauges are
correct. I'm assuming you've zeroed the gauge when not using it. I'm also
assuming you purge your gauge line before attaching it, whether by bleeding
or a can, the other way.

When you get the lockdown/restart, where is the frost on your suction side?
Right at the evaporator/cold plate-to-pipe? Somewhat inside it? Somewhere
down the tube? Do you have an expansion valve, capillary tube, or constant
pressure valve controlling your evaporation/boil/superheat point? Do you
have a receiver/drier and sight glass? If so, any bubbles in the sight
glass?

In my new system, there's a CPV, and a pretty good tolerance for over/under
charging as a result. YMMV of course.

Oh man, thanks for the help but you've made things WAY too complicated.

I'm not concerned with temperature readings on the gauge fittings. Who
cares? I'm perfectly happy when the evaporator is ice cold all around
so that it freezes cans of beer unless the thermostat is turned way
down. It does just that when the pressure in the suction side gauge
fitting is around 15psi when it's running. Neither am I concerned
with pressures on the compressed side. If the pressure on the
suction side is within specs then the pressure on the compressed
side will also be within specs. The only thing that could drive
up the pressure on the compressed side is if the tiny little
capillary in the evaporator should become clogged which it obviously
is not as the evaporator gurgles, hisses and chitters indicating
that compressed r134a is making its way through the capillary where
it then expands and freezes the heck out of my cans of beer which
fill the evaporator to the brim. (It's one of those vertical ones
an it holds about fifteen cans of beer which make a great drinkable
holding plate system)

All that other stuff you mentioned doesn't really apply as the Adler
Barbour doesn't have sight glasses, etc. It has a low pressure cut
off and a high pressure cut off and a high temp cut off and that's
about it. It's never gotten so hot that it cuts off because of that.

It does suffer from connection problems in the spade connectors to
the control panel, though. One must clean them and tighten them
by gentle crimping from time to time lest the resistance build to
the point where they fail to pass current.

It HAS and does cut off due to high pressure. Where the high pressure
in the suction side in the morning after it's sat idle all night comes
from is the question. Nobody seems to be able to answer that simple
question. Instead, everybody wants to go off on oddball tangents.

--
Sir Gregory

On Sun, 05 Oct 2014 13:15:55 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Oct 2014 07:12:58 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Oct 2014 10:47:40 +0700, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Oct 2014 15:28:37 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Oct 2014 07:34:51 +0700, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:38:12 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:


I've been trying to get you to reason rather then just bitch and moan.
Think about why a totally closed system might have a significantly
different pressure for the suction and pressure sides of a compressor
when running and the same pressure on each side when the system is
shut down for a while.

You seem to be saying that your stabilized system pressure is high....
Have you checked the temperature of the system -- usually OAT and
looked at a temperature - pressure table to be sure that it isn't a
temperature problem?

He's misreading the gauges, has bad gauges, or is wrong about the
system being in a stable state.

You two are hopeless as you both can't seem to render things down
to the basics.

The basics are that the suction side and the compressed side will
carry the same psi after the system has sat all night long turned
off. It doesn't matter where one puts the gauge as the pressure
will be the same throughout. The compressor *leaks* and is not
some sort of impermeable membrane. Duh.

And don't say there is
some kind of a check valve in the system as that would also be
silly as the evaporator is a free flow device.

The evaporator is a free flow device? Well yes it is but there is a
valve or other restriction in there. Or is it just another thing that
you don't know?

Silly speculation as to the system being hot might be the problem
are just that - silly as the compressor will be at room temperature
in the morning. Actually it will be closer to water temperature as
it's installed in the bilge.

Well yes, silly. Except of course that with a gas pressure is
associated with temperature.

My question of where does the extra psi come from remains
unanswered.
--
Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 07:02:15 +0700, wrote:

On Sun, 05 Oct 2014 13:15:55 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Oct 2014 07:12:58 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Oct 2014 10:47:40 +0700, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Oct 2014 15:28:37 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Oct 2014 07:34:51 +0700, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:38:12 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:


I've been trying to get you to reason rather then just bitch and moan.
Think about why a totally closed system might have a significantly
different pressure for the suction and pressure sides of a compressor
when running and the same pressure on each side when the system is
shut down for a while.

You seem to be saying that your stabilized system pressure is high....
Have you checked the temperature of the system -- usually OAT and
looked at a temperature - pressure table to be sure that it isn't a
temperature problem?

He's misreading the gauges, has bad gauges, or is wrong about the
system being in a stable state.

You two are hopeless as you both can't seem to render things down
to the basics.

The basics are that the suction side and the compressed side will
carry the same psi after the system has sat all night long turned
off. It doesn't matter where one puts the gauge as the pressure
will be the same throughout. The compressor *leaks* and is not
some sort of impermeable membrane. Duh.

And don't say there is
some kind of a check valve in the system as that would also be
silly as the evaporator is a free flow device.

The evaporator is a free flow device? Well yes it is but there is a
valve or other restriction in there. Or is it just another thing that
you don't know?

Silly speculation as to the system being hot might be the problem
are just that - silly as the compressor will be at room temperature
in the morning. Actually it will be closer to water temperature as
it's installed in the bilge.

Well yes, silly. Except of course that with a gas pressure is
associated with temperature.

My question of where does the extra psi come from remains
unanswered.

===

Someone suggested contamination and I think that is the right track,
especially in view of the fact that you didn't use a vacuum pump on
the system after fixing a leak. All of the professionals that I know
will *always* use a vacuum pump after repairing a leak. They are not
that expensive and a good investment if you are doing you're own work.
If you also get a leak detector, a full gage set and an IR temp gun,
you can not only fix your own system, but also hire out and make some
cash on the side.

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:14:32 PM UTC-4, Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
I can't figure it out. I keep having to let refrigerant out of my Adler Barbour. It runs great with the suction-side pressure set at 15 psi. But, every month or so it will commence to cycle off and on after being off for the night. I put a gauge on it and the suction side pressure is in the beginning of the red range(55 psi). It turns on and the compressor starts compressing, the pressure starts going down but it only gets to about 45 psi until the compressor *clicks off* and the voltage gauge goes up a volt or two because the load comes off the circuit. Then it turns itself off and back on and the compressor starts to compress again and the pressure goes down to about 45 psi, then it cycles off again. So, I let out some pressure until it only starts out around 45 psi and it will finally keep compressing until it draws down the suction side to about 15 psi where it stabilizes. So where does the extra pressure come from. I've had to let out ten pounds of pressure about half a dozen times this summer. I can understand leaks but this is ridiculous! -- Sir Gregory

An Adler Barbour old fixed speed or new variable speed CU models are serviced with 80 to 120 grams of refrigerant. Trying to determine correct refrigerant charge when compressor is not running is of no value as ambient temperatures of complete system are likely never going to be the same pressure.

The important indicators of an AB refrigeration unit's performance is how much amperage it is drawing, frost covering of evaporator and no frost on return line towards compressor.

Once a servicing gauge is connected to one of these very small systems the chances are the refrigerant's purity is probably compromised. If refrigerant is still pure suction pressure will after 20 minutes compressor running time will read 6 to 8 psi for 134a refrigerant and 8 to 11 psi for R12 refrigerant. If thermostat is set for refrigerator temperatures many hours later suction pressure will be the same or a few psi lower if evaporator is very cold.

Once low pressure is correct and frost coverage and amperage is not correct you will know there is a problem with condenser cooling or contaminated refrigerant. As Skip mentioned on another manufactures refrigerant flow problems can not be ruled out. Moisture freezing in refrigerant is possible if refrigerant is contaminated. It is unlikely that Skips problem with refrigerant flow will occur on an AB system.

There is a special section on Refrigerant Charging on my web site covering Adler Barbour Danfoss BD compressors.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 07:40:33 -0700 (PDT), Richard Kollmann
wrote:

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:14:32 PM UTC-4, Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
I can't figure it out. I keep having to let refrigerant out of my Adler Barbour. It runs great with the suction-side pressure set at 15 psi. But, every month or so it will commence to cycle off and on after being off for the night. I put a gauge on it and the suction side pressure is in the beginning of the red range(55 psi). It turns on and the compressor starts compressing, the pressure starts going down but it only gets to about 45 psi until the compressor *clicks off* and the voltage gauge goes up a volt or two because the load comes off the circuit. Then it turns itself off and back on and the compressor starts to compress again and the pressure goes down to about 45 psi, then it cycles off again. So, I let out some pressure until it only starts out around 45 psi and it will finally keep compressing until it draws down the suction side to about 15 psi where it stabilizes. So where does the extra pressure come from. I've had to let out ten pounds of pressure about half a dozen
times this summer. I can understand leaks but this is ridiculous! -- Sir Gregory

An Adler Barbour old fixed speed or new variable speed CU models are serviced with 80 to 120 grams of refrigerant. Trying to determine correct refrigerant charge when compressor is not running is of no value as ambient temperatures of complete system are likely never going to be the same pressure.

The important indicators of an AB refrigeration unit's performance is how much amperage it is drawing, frost covering of evaporator and no frost on return line towards compressor.

Once a servicing gauge is connected to one of these very small systems the chances are the refrigerant's purity is probably compromised. If refrigerant is still pure suction pressure will after 20 minutes compressor running time will read 6 to 8 psi for 134a refrigerant and 8 to 11 psi for R12 refrigerant. If thermostat is set for refrigerator temperatures many hours later suction pressure will be the same or a few psi lower if evaporator is very cold.

Once low pressure is correct and frost coverage and amperage is not correct you will know there is a problem with condenser cooling or contaminated refrigerant. As Skip mentioned on another manufactures refrigerant flow problems can not be ruled out. Moisture freezing in refrigerant is possible if refrigerant is contaminated. It is unlikely that Skips problem with refrigerant flow will occur on an AB system.

There is a special section on Refrigerant Charging on my web site covering Adler Barbour Danfoss BD compressors.



Thanks, I might just have to try vacuuming the damned thing out and
putting new r134a into it. It could be that it gets a blockage from
time to time which could conceivably drive up the suction pressure
so high that the high pressure cut-off switch cuts in.

I know somebody who has a vacuum pump I can borrow. I suppose a little
water vapor in the system could wreak havoc. I tend to be sloppy with
connecting the little can of r134a and I never even thought about
purging the supply hose.

--
Sir Gregory

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 07:40:33 -0700 (PDT), Richard Kollmann
wrote:



There is a special section on Refrigerant Charging on my web site covering Adler Barbour Danfoss BD compressors.


Link please.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 20:16:13 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 07:40:33 -0700 (PDT), Richard Kollmann
wrote:



There is a special section on Refrigerant Charging on my web site covering Adler Barbour Danfoss BD compressors.


Link please.

===

http://www.kollmann-marine.com/servicing%20sml%20refrig.aspx#INDEX

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 20:50:49 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 20:16:13 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 07:40:33 -0700 (PDT), Richard Kollmann
wrote:



There is a special section on Refrigerant Charging on my web site covering Adler Barbour Danfoss BD compressors.


Link please.

===

http://www.kollmann-marine.com/servicing%20sml%20refrig.aspx#INDEX

Thanks, it looks like a lot to read. But at first glance it looks like
my suction side pressure might still be a bit too high although the
evaporator is frozen all the way around. It's not possible to tell where
the frost line is as the tubing exits the icebox and is immediately
enshrouded by a rubberized sleeve that goes almost all the way to the
compressor. The tubing about a two feet from the compressor where it
enters the rubberized shroud is only slightly cold to the touch so the
frost line is somewhere inside the insulation.

The amperage draw is lower as the suction pressure is lower. I can tell
by the volt meter. When running in the bright sunshine with 20 amps of
solar panels keeping the batteries charged the voltage will be about
13.2 with the fridge running. I can lower the voltage (thus upping the
amperage) by adding more refrigerant. I can easily whack it down to 12.5
volts by adding about 5-7 pounds more than the fifteen pounds which
seems optimal. This is with a hot system that has stabilized itself
with a completely frosted evaporator. Kollman is suggesting 8psi or
lower for optimization. Perhaps I need to let out more pressure. But,
where is the extra pressure coming from. I'd still like to know that.

I can understand leaks which lower the pressure but I just can't
understand what can constantly cause pressure increases.

As of now, my freaking beer has ice crystals and I have to turn the
thermostat down, way down so the fridge only runs about 20 minutes
per hour. The amp draw is low because the voltage is high. I'm
happy until it stops working again and I find too much pressure again.

You don't get too much pressure from nowhere. ?????



--
Sir Gregory

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 21:24:15 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

You don't get too much pressure from nowhere. ?????

===

Best guess is water vapor freezing or some other contaminant. You
can eliminate water vapor by pumping it down with a vacuum pump and
being very careful to purge the hoses properly.