Is there a better group than this for sailing? The ones I found were pretty
dead.

Yesterday I went out to sail my 13' boat, for what might be about the last
day this year. It is pretty narrow with big sails (a Starwing) and the wind
was rather stronger than forecast, about 15-20. That is way too strong for
me, so I didn't use the jib. In hindsight I should have reefed the main,
but that takes too long.

Had real problems on jibes and tacks. On tacks the boat would just stall
out, and I had to wait for a wind shift to help me out. That never happens
with my jib up. Any tips, or is it just a problem with not using the jib.
The jibes were much worse. The boom swung around violently, and the boat
nearly capsized twice. Again, I have never had that problem; but I have
also never had an unreefed main out in wind like that. Any tips for this
one? (I mean, other than "Learn to sail")

Finally, when I was just trying to sail straight, I was pretty much hiked
out as far as I could go. What do you do in that situation with an even
stronger wind gust? Without the jib, I steer a bit into the wind; with the
jib all I can think to do it let the main out to shed wind. Is there
anything better?

Thanks much.

Finally, when I was just trying to sail straight, I was pretty much hiked
out as far as I could go. What do you do in that situation with an even
stronger wind gust? Without the jib, I steer a bit into the wind; with
the
jib all I can think to do it let the main out to shed wind. Is there
anything better?

Shorten sail as you were over powered

Leanne

John wrote:
Is there a better group than this for sailing? The ones I found were pretty
dead.

Yesterday I went out to sail my 13' boat, for what might be about the last
day this year. It is pretty narrow with big sails (a Starwing) and the wind
was rather stronger than forecast, about 15-20. That is way too strong for
me, so I didn't use the jib. In hindsight I should have reefed the main,
but that takes too long.

Had real problems on jibes and tacks. On tacks the boat would just stall
out, and I had to wait for a wind shift to help me out. That never happens
with my jib up. Any tips, or is it just a problem with not using the jib.
The jibes were much worse. The boom swung around violently, and the boat
nearly capsized twice. Again, I have never had that problem; but I have
also never had an unreefed main out in wind like that. Any tips for this
one? (I mean, other than "Learn to sail")

Finally, when I was just trying to sail straight, I was pretty much hiked
out as far as I could go. What do you do in that situation with an even
stronger wind gust? Without the jib, I steer a bit into the wind; with the
jib all I can think to do it let the main out to shed wind. Is there
anything better?

Thanks much.



Your instincts were OK. Though now you see you should have reefed prior
to departure, it happens that sometimes the wind comes up and you can't
(or more accurately, don't reef, cause it seems like as much risk doing
it as being overpowered).

Flattening your sail with downhaul, (cunningham), and outhaul, and vang
are good ways to depower your main.

Easing the main, in a puff, so that there is a portion of the leading
edge not filled with wind also helps. Giving the boat its head, so to
speak, and letting her head up a little in the puffs works well, too, as
you found.

A sloop can be very sluggish tacking with out a jib, as you learned.
Sometimes you might want to fall off a little and get up some boat speed
before you try to tack might help.

Pulling in the main and letting the friction of the blocks and
mainsheet slow it on a jibe as the stern passes through the wind and
pulls it out should help keep control. Getting your weight over on the
soon to be windward side is important.

All in all it sounds like you have figured out the basics. The rest is
practice.

Jonathan

--
I am building a Dudley Dix, Argie 10, for my daughter. Check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

Many small boats NEVER reef or need to.

In heavy wind, just flatten the sails by excess halyard and outhaul
tension to 'depower' the sails. If possible put an exagerated bend
(bowing in the middle towards the bow) in the mast, opening the 'slot'
between main and jib by moving the jib fairleads outboard and/or moving
the jib fairleads aft will also help to depower. The technique using
very flat sails is called 'blading' and is very effective for control.
Pulling the daggerboard or centerboard up a bit will give less 'bite'
when broadsided by gusts.... but be prepared slip sideways a bit.

Not using the jib probably caused the boat to gain weather helm and the
steering can get 'cranky'.
On a small boat that normally uses a jib+ mainsail and you are only
using the main, sometimes you can 're-balance' the helm by simply
sitting as far forward as you can .... this will artifically rake the
mast forward and tend reestablish the correct center of effort. Also,
increasing the halyard tension will move the position of maximum draft
forward and will help 'rebalance' the center of effort.

If your jib has some overlap (trailing edge ends 'behind' the mast,
many times just sailing on the jib alone will be suitable .... but you
have to experiment in moderate conditions first to see if thats
suitable/possible. With just the (overlaping) jib flying, you wont be
able to 'point' as well as with both raised, but you will have decent
control in the higher wind ranges.

With any boat, the higher the wind speed the greater the need to
'force' the boat through a tack .... the increased wind pressure is
stopping you. Bear off a bit before tacking to get maximum speed,
look for a 'flat spot' in the waves and 'power through' the tack.
Practice will enable you to do this without losing much needed
speed/momentum. Do a websearch for 'roll-tacking' for additioinal
info/help.

Jibing when overpowered isnt safe. Pull the board up a bit (or up
enough to 'just' maintain control), pull the main to the centerline,
THEN slowly gybe until the mainsail gets 'winded' from the other side,
then slowly release the mainsheet and drop the board back to normal.
Allowing the boom to swing violently from one side to the other when
jibing is a called a 'slam dunk' jibe ... and you can guess the reason
for that name. If gybing with board almost all the way up and you
begin to lose control, dont attempt to bring the bow 'towards' the wind
(or you'll wind up upside down) but do just the opposite and bear off -
.... and hold onto your hat when the boat speed drastically increases -
speed will increase 'stability' in a lightweight boat.
With the board all the way down during a jibe, you get a LOT of 'bite'
from it and if the gybe isnt perfect the boat will potentially greatly
heel (to windward OR leeward ... called a broach). Reduction in the
exposed area of the board will allow the boat to 'slip' a bit and not
lose control by excess heel if something goes wrong.

There's a lot more to it; but, this should get you started ... and
thinking. If you are asking questions like these .... then you will
arrive at where you want to be with good sailing technique soon!
Sailing is learned by doing .... asking questions .... and getting back
out there and doing it again and again and again. If you have your
eyes/mind open, your boat will 'teach' you.

hope this helps

;-)

One does not learn how to walk without falling.
It sound like you are learning. At times you may have to accept to good and
bad moves and learned from them. A good mentor and sailing courses are
highly recommended.
You should call your local sailing association and make your intention
known. They in-turn will suggest different alternatives.
Sailing is not learned in the classroom or books. Its learned on the water.
One thing you should master well is to right your boat up once it capsized.
Learn about the weather forecast before going for a sail.
I do not know exactly what type of boat you have. Each design handles
differently.
As mentioned by others you have to empty your sails. That is like a door.
When the wind struck the door it opens and the wind goes through. On small
boats you have to move quickly to avoid getting hit by the boom. When the
wind gets strong, at times, I pinch the wind until I can adjust my sails
accordingly. That is I turn into the wind just enough not to get it right
on the nose, the boat almost comes to a stop and it gives time to adjust to
the situation. The other thing is that your boat has to be equipped with
good sheet stoppers. I prefer the quick release clutch type.
If it takes you to long to release a sheet, haylars or other ropes for
adjustment its going to take you much longer to adjust your sails and that's
no fun.
When you are out on the water make sure that people know you sail plan and
wear an approved floating jacket. Ideally someone should be on shore with a
crash boat monitoring your activities.

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...

Many small boats NEVER reef or need to.

In heavy wind, just flatten the sails by excess halyard and outhaul
tension to 'depower' the sails. If possible put an exagerated bend
(bowing in the middle towards the bow) in the mast, opening the 'slot'
between main and jib by moving the jib fairleads outboard and/or moving
the jib fairleads aft will also help to depower. The technique using
very flat sails is called 'blading' and is very effective for control.
Pulling the daggerboard or centerboard up a bit will give less 'bite'
when broadsided by gusts.... but be prepared slip sideways a bit.

Not using the jib probably caused the boat to gain weather helm and the
steering can get 'cranky'.
On a small boat that normally uses a jib+ mainsail and you are only
using the main, sometimes you can 're-balance' the helm by simply
sitting as far forward as you can .... this will artifically rake the
mast forward and tend reestablish the correct center of effort. Also,
increasing the halyard tension will move the position of maximum draft
forward and will help 'rebalance' the center of effort.

If your jib has some overlap (trailing edge ends 'behind' the mast,
many times just sailing on the jib alone will be suitable .... but you
have to experiment in moderate conditions first to see if thats
suitable/possible. With just the (overlaping) jib flying, you wont be
able to 'point' as well as with both raised, but you will have decent
control in the higher wind ranges.

With any boat, the higher the wind speed the greater the need to
'force' the boat through a tack .... the increased wind pressure is
stopping you. Bear off a bit before tacking to get maximum speed,
look for a 'flat spot' in the waves and 'power through' the tack.
Practice will enable you to do this without losing much needed
speed/momentum. Do a websearch for 'roll-tacking' for additioinal
info/help.

Jibing when overpowered isnt safe. Pull the board up a bit (or up
enough to 'just' maintain control), pull the main to the centerline,
THEN slowly gybe until the mainsail gets 'winded' from the other side,
then slowly release the mainsheet and drop the board back to normal.
Allowing the boom to swing violently from one side to the other when
jibing is a called a 'slam dunk' jibe ... and you can guess the reason
for that name. If gybing with board almost all the way up and you
begin to lose control, dont attempt to bring the bow 'towards' the wind
(or you'll wind up upside down) but do just the opposite and bear off -
... and hold onto your hat when the boat speed drastically increases -
speed will increase 'stability' in a lightweight boat.
With the board all the way down during a jibe, you get a LOT of 'bite'
from it and if the gybe isnt perfect the boat will potentially greatly
heel (to windward OR leeward ... called a broach). Reduction in the
exposed area of the board will allow the boat to 'slip' a bit and not
lose control by excess heel if something goes wrong.

There's a lot more to it; but, this should get you started ... and
thinking. If you are asking questions like these .... then you will
arrive at where you want to be with good sailing technique soon!
Sailing is learned by doing .... asking questions .... and getting back
out there and doing it again and again and again. If you have your
eyes/mind open, your boat will 'teach' you.

hope this helps

;-)

It sounds like your boat isn't well balanced under main alone, and as you
already indicated it would have been better to put up the right amount of
sail for the conditions (ie, reef).

To avoid the stall on the tack there are a few things you can do. First,
make sure you have plenty of speed going into the tack. Second, don't turn
too tightly as the rudder can act as a brake. Third, lean-in and heel the
boat to leeward to help the boat turn-up to the wind using body weight (then
you don't have to use as much rudder). If you had a jib up, you could allow
it to backwind briefly to help bring the bow down onto the new tack, and
also ease the main a few inches.

When jibing in heavy winds, I think there is a natural tendency for us all
to want to slow down a little first. That is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Make sure you are moving as fast as possible in strong winds when you jibe.
This way, the apparent wind speed is low (since you are heading downwind),
and the boom won't come across with as much force as it would if you were
going slow. You can center the main before the stern crosses the wind if
you like, in order to keep control. But you have to be ready to let it out
very quickly once you've jibed, and shift your weight to the new windward
side, to keep control.

Another option for jibing in strong winds is to s-jibe. Basically, just as
the boom starts to move across, head up slightly (on the original tack).
This will slow the boom, and once it has slowed you can head down again and
finish the jibe.

You mentioned hiking out as much as possible and pinching up into the wind a
little to dump power as needed. That's called "feathering", and is an okay
thing to do. I prefer not to do this when I sail Vanguard V-15s. I find it
more efficient to keep the jib tight, and then ease the main in the puffs,
hike out harder, then trim the main back in (ease, hike, trim). If you try
this, you might want to adjust your vang to hold sail shape and just use the
main sheet to adjust the angle of attack.

Also, make sure you adjust your rig properly for the wind conditions. As a
rule of thumb, the higher the wind speed the tighter the rig. When the boat
starts getting overpowered I usually pull on some additional downhaul as my
first adjustment. This moves the draft position forward, easing weather
helm. Additional outhaul will help flatten the foot of the sail.
Tightening the jib halyard will help rake the mast forward, also reducing
weather helm.

Okay, that's it. I'm playing hooky this afternoon and sailing a dinghy!

There have been a number of good answers here but of course I must add
my 2 cents.

John wrote:
Yesterday I went out to sail my 13' boat, for what might be about the last
day this year. It is pretty narrow with big sails (a Starwing) and the wind
was rather stronger than forecast, about 15-20. That is way too strong for
me, so I didn't use the jib. In hindsight I should have reefed the main,
but that takes too long.

Why does it take too long?

Many small boats don't reef at all, in a 15-20 knot wind it should be
possible to sail the boat full sail with good practice.


Had real problems on jibes and tacks. On tacks the boat would just stall
out, and I had to wait for a wind shift to help me out.

I bet the problem here is that the increased drag from the stronger wind
is stopping the boat. The answer here is to be well practiced at making
smart tacks, and know how to get the boat around a little differently in
different conditions... for example, in light air you tack more slowly
with lots of roll.

In heavy air, there are a few keys to good tacks.
1- be close hauled, pointing high, and moving well, before the tack.
Starting a tack when going slow, or from a close reach, or when you're
unprepared to shift sides quickly, is only going to result in embarassment!

2- turn the boat quickly. As somebody else pointed out, the rudder is a
brake and it's possible to slow the boat down turning too quick, but I
think it's more likely the opposite problem unless you've slamming the
tiller hard over instantly.

3- as the boat starts to turn, pull the main sheet in to keep the sail
drawing as long as possible and to help the boat turn (this is good
tacking practice generally). Take the sheet OUT of the cleat though!

4- Shift your weight in advance, be prepared for the boat to heel over
on the new tack, and only trim in the main when it will fill properly
and drive the boat forward. Otherwise the boat will act like a
weathervane and try to turn back into the wind. This is the one
situation a jib helps.


... That never happens
with my jib up. Any tips, or is it just a problem with not using the jib.

I don't think so, a 13' boat should balance well enough under main alone
unless the main is really blown out & baggy. How old are your sails?

The jibes were much worse. The boom swung around violently, and the boat
nearly capsized twice. Again, I have never had that problem; but I have
also never had an unreefed main out in wind like that. Any tips for this
one?

Hah! If you only "nearly capsized" then you weren't trying hard enough!
Capsizing is a normal part of sailing a small boat in strong winds. You
should practice capsize drills in calm weather. Actually, it's fun as
well as good for safety.

One thing to do is practice. Learn exactly how far by the lee you can go
before the boom comes over, learn exactly how much mainsheet to pull to
get it started & keep it from snagging on anything (on many boats, the
mainsheet loves to get tangled in the middle of a gybe). Leanr how to
hold the sheet, pulled in somewhat, and then ease quickly as the boom
reaches it's limit to cushion the force. Learn how to anticipate the
boom coming over & shift weight accordingly. Sailing a small boat is
somewhat like dancing in that you need the footwork.

The S-gybe mentioned by others is good. Also for extreme situations
there's the "North River" gybe which is turning the boat very quickly
through a gybe, around to a close reach, so that the boom does not reach
it's limit but instead luffs harmlessly on the new side.



Finally, when I was just trying to sail straight, I was pretty much hiked
out as far as I could go. What do you do in that situation with an even
stronger wind gust? Without the jib, I steer a bit into the wind; with the
jib all I can think to do it let the main out to shed wind. Is there
anything better?

As others have mentioned, putting extra tension on the halyard, outhaul,
and cunningham (if you have one) is good. Also don't neglect the vang,
especially for downwind sailing. But if your sails are blown out then it
won't help much. New sails are relatively expensive but it will make a
huge difference in the way your boat sails, in speed & handling.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"John" wrote:

Wow, John, what a good bunch of responses you've gotten. I'll throw
my two cents in too. It may be redundant but I've found if something
is said in different ways it often helps the learning process.

Yesterday I went out to sail my 13' boat, for what might be about the last
day this year. It is pretty narrow with big sails (a Starwing) and the wind
was rather stronger than forecast, about 15-20. That is way too strong for
me, so I didn't use the jib. In hindsight I should have reefed the main,
but that takes too long.

Well I guess you now know the advantages of a balanced boat.

Had real problems on jibes and tacks. On tacks the boat would just stall
out, and I had to wait for a wind shift to help me out. That never happens
with my jib up. Any tips, or is it just a problem with not using the jib.

Every type of boat is different of course. Trying not to repeat what
others have written and hoping it works on your boat:

Try a constant *pressure* on the helm (tiller). Very little helm at
first, then slowly increasing helm as the boat slows and turns. Don't
go past about 40 degrees of rudder. Ease the main as the boat goes
through the "eye" of the wind then, as you complete the tack, ease it
back in and straighten the helm out so the boat can accelerate.

Too much helm and/or keeping the main in tight while tacking in strong
winds (especially without a jib) will keep you from being able to fall
off (turn away from the wind) and complete your tack. The main wants
to head you up into the wind - - - good for the start of a tack, bad
for the last half of a tack. As you found, a jib will help cover for
any improper technique which is only magnified in strong winds. (And
the technique will probably be a little different in strong winds
too.)

If you're stuck in irons (head to wind) you'll have to back out of
trouble. Push the main boom and the tiller in the direction you want
the bow to be pointed. Not too much rudder for the same reason you
don't want too much when going forward - - - it's a big speed break
and you must be moving for it to be effective. The mainsail will try
to point into the wind. To do this it will have to pivot the boat
away from the eye of the wind and in the direction you want to go.
You're backing around and the rudder and mainsail are working
together. When you're headed in the right direction and you think you
can sail close hauled, pull the main in slowly and straighten the
rudder out. If you pull the main in too fast the boat will head up
into the wind again because there won't be enough speed for the rudder
to counter the tendency. You can practice this in light air as well.

With a jib the same technique works but it must go out to the opposite
side the main is pushed out to so it can be "backwinded". For
instance if you want to fall off to starboard, pull the jib in on the
port side and it will fill on the "wrong" side (be backwinded) and
push the bow around to starboard. Actually, you can probably get out
of irons with a jib alone as long as you leave the mainsheet slack and
the helm is amidships (centered) or pushed over slightly in the
direction you want to go.

The jibes were much worse. The boom swung around violently, and the boat
nearly capsized twice. Again, I have never had that problem; but I have
also never had an unreefed main out in wind like that. Any tips for this
one? (I mean, other than "Learn to sail")

I'll repeat what others have said: have the centerboard up at least
half way so the boat doesn't "trip" over it (broach) and be going fast
so the relative wind is low.

To increase speed before jibing you might try heading up slightly
before bearing off for the jibe. The boat will pick up a little speed
with the wind, say, 20 degrees or so off the stern before you start
the jibe. To keep speed up through the jibe, continue the turn as the
boat jibes until the wind is 20 degrees off the stern on the opposite
side from when you started the jibe. Finally, return to your downwind
course. This manoeuver is best done "smartly" - - - quickly, but not
in haste, if you take my meaning.

If you fear for your rig (or life!) you can always just tack around to
the opposite jibe. (I know this as a "Chinese jib" but I'm sure
that's politically incorrect.)

Finally, when I was just trying to sail straight, I was pretty much hiked
out as far as I could go. What do you do in that situation with an even
stronger wind gust? Without the jib, I steer a bit into the wind; with the
jib all I can think to do it let the main out to shed wind. Is there
anything better?

The way to work to windward is to come up in the puffs so you're doing
the right thing. Coming up is first priority, easing the main second.
(There may be nanoseconds between the two actions if you feel you're
going to capsize!)

Thanks much.

Let me emphasize what someone said about wearing a life jacket and add
that practicing capsize recovery is time well spent. Practice in
light air first.

Also, if you find yourself in the water after righting the boat and
find it difficult to get back aboard, think about a way to do this. I
tried an oddball thing once and it worked for me. I ran a line from
the base of the mast all the way aft and over the stern into the
water. I tied a foot loop about two feet under water and another loop
to grab onto a couple of feet forward of the transom to help pull
myself aboard and keep my foot and leg from going horizontal under the
boat if I just tried to stand up in the foot loop.

TomT

thank you all for your help. It is a lot to read...