In 1998 my father-in-law had a simple 35 mile range Raytheon radar (sorry don't have the model
available) that had an old style CRT for a display and just simple controls such as range, wave
return adjustment, frequency adjust, brightness, etc. etc.. and nothing fancy like collision
detection or DSP. The radar antenna was of the waveguide type.

He was over 20 nm from shore off the coast of British Columbia, Canada one day and had his radar
operating. Visibility was unlimited and he could see the distant shore in the east on his radar
display. Out towards the open Pacific Ocean at approx the 30 mile mark on his 12 inch display was a
perfect square about the size of an eraser found on the end of a typical pencil. The return was
stationary and changed aspect whenever he manouvered his vessel. The "square" was hollow in
appearance. Adjusting the range showed that it was something at about the 30 mile mark and did not
appear on the closer range settings. Tuning adjustments did nothing to alter it. His C-Map and
paper charts showed nothing in that location and examining the area from the roof of his boat with a
pair of binoculars didn't reveal anything. Eventually, near the end of his day, he turned back for
shore to anchor for the night. The radar return drifted off the edge of his screen as he left the
area.

Anyone have any idea what it may have been? He had that radar for 3 years previous and still has it
today and has never seen anything like that appear on his display before or since. I thought
perhaps it may be the wave height buoys the CCG has planted in various places in the general
vicinity but posing the question to some coast guard techs I am friends with say as far as they know
they don't register returns like that. The Soviet "trawlers" left the waters years ago thanks to
glasnost! heheh! so I can't see it being that. Perhaps something military was in the area playing
"games". ????

I'm curious to know if anyone else has had an experience like this.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:43:52 GMT, "Richard P." wrote:

In 1998 my father-in-law had a simple 35 mile range Raytheon radar (sorry don't have the model
available) that had an old style CRT for a display and just simple controls such as range, wave
return adjustment, frequency adjust, brightness, etc. etc.. and nothing fancy like collision
detection or DSP. The radar antenna was of the waveguide type.

He was over 20 nm from shore off the coast of British Columbia, Canada one day and had his radar
operating. Visibility was unlimited and he could see the distant shore in the east on his radar
display. Out towards the open Pacific Ocean at approx the 30 mile mark on his 12 inch display was a
perfect square about the size of an eraser found on the end of a typical pencil. The return was
stationary and changed aspect whenever he manouvered his vessel. The "square" was hollow in
appearance. Adjusting the range showed that it was something at about the 30 mile mark and did not
appear on the closer range settings. Tuning adjustments did nothing to alter it. His C-Map and
paper charts showed nothing in that location and examining the area from the roof of his boat with a
pair of binoculars didn't reveal anything. Eventually, near the end of his day, he turned back for
shore to anchor for the night. The radar return drifted off the edge of his screen as he left the
area.

Anyone have any idea what it may have been? He had that radar for 3 years previous and still has it
today and has never seen anything like that appear on his display before or since. I thought
perhaps it may be the wave height buoys the CCG has planted in various places in the general
vicinity but posing the question to some coast guard techs I am friends with say as far as they know
they don't register returns like that. The Soviet "trawlers" left the waters years ago thanks to
glasnost! heheh! so I can't see it being that. Perhaps something military was in the area playing
"games". ????

I'm curious to know if anyone else has had an experience like this.


There are a couple of anomalous modes that people occasionally spot:
1) an echo off a side lobe - so its not where the dish is pointing.
2) An echo off a second sweep. On a 30 mile range, a 20 mile echo
might emanate from 20 miles + 30 miles + some interpulse delay

Brian W

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:43:52 GMT, "Richard P." wrote:

Out towards the open Pacific Ocean at approx the 30 mile mark on his 12 inch display was a
perfect square about the size of an eraser found on the end of a typical pencil. The return was
stationary and changed aspect whenever he manouvered his vessel. The "square" was hollow in
appearance.

============================================

Some of the Raytheon sets use a hollow square to denote a target that
is being tracked. My guess is that the set inadvertantly went into a
mode where it thought it was tracking a distant object.

Rich, I'm not sure what your problem was, but your definately not going
to see a target from 30 miles away with binoculars. I'm from NY, and
prior to 9/11 we used to spot the twin towers from somewhere like 15 or
16 miles off the beach on a very good day. We do, on occasion, pick up
aircraft on the radar, but the image it leaves looks like a bananna, as
it moves across the screen. Could it be a helocopter? Or a strange
bounce of the signal? Could it have been a sail boat, not under sail
power, with a radar reflector in it's mast? With a little bit of
overcast on the horizen it would be easy to miss. You need something
pretty big to pick it up at 30 miles.

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:43:52 GMT, "Richard P." wrote:

Out towards the open Pacific Ocean at approx the 30 mile mark on his 12 inch
display was a
perfect square about the size of an eraser found on the end of a typical
pencil. The return was
stationary and changed aspect whenever he manouvered his vessel. The
"square" was hollow in
appearance.

============================================

Some of the Raytheon sets use a hollow square to denote a target that
is being tracked. My guess is that the set inadvertantly went into a
mode where it thought it was tracking a distant object.


Nope, not something that a RADAR as discribed could do. These were
analog Reatime video displays, and didn't have any ARPA features
included.

I suspect that it could have been one of the early Xband Transponders
but how it could be triggered at that distance without being at some
altitude, would be an interesting question.


Me

Richard,
Perhaps a sub?
Paul

Richard P. wrote:
In 1998 my father-in-law had a simple 35 mile range Raytheon radar (sorry don't have the model
available) that had an old style CRT for a display and just simple controls such as range, wave
return adjustment, frequency adjust, brightness, etc. etc.. and nothing fancy like collision
detection or DSP. The radar antenna was of the waveguide type.

He was over 20 nm from shore off the coast of British Columbia, Canada one day and had his radar
operating. Visibility was unlimited and he could see the distant shore in the east on his radar
display. Out towards the open Pacific Ocean at approx the 30 mile mark on his 12 inch display was a
perfect square about the size of an eraser found on the end of a typical pencil. The return was
stationary and changed aspect whenever he manouvered his vessel. The "square" was hollow in
appearance. Adjusting the range showed that it was something at about the 30 mile mark and did not
appear on the closer range settings. Tuning adjustments did nothing to alter it. His C-Map and
paper charts showed nothing in that location and examining the area from the roof of his boat with a
pair of binoculars didn't reveal anything. Eventually, near the end of his day, he turned back for
shore to anchor for the night. The radar return drifted off the edge of his screen as he left the
area.

Anyone have any idea what it may have been? He had that radar for 3 years previous and still has it
today and has never seen anything like that appear on his display before or since. I thought
perhaps it may be the wave height buoys the CCG has planted in various places in the general
vicinity but posing the question to some coast guard techs I am friends with say as far as they know
they don't register returns like that. The Soviet "trawlers" left the waters years ago thanks to
glasnost! heheh! so I can't see it being that. Perhaps something military was in the area playing
"games". ????

I'm curious to know if anyone else has had an experience like this.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:30:12 GMT, Me wrote:

Nope, not something that a RADAR as discribed could do. These were
analog Reatime video displays, and didn't have any ARPA features
included.

I suspect that it could have been one of the early Xband Transponders
but how it could be triggered at that distance without being at some
altitude, would be an interesting question.
===================================

My last boat had a Raytheon R41xx with an analog display, circa 1983
or so. It was capable of tracking targets via ARPA.

That was my 2nd thought. I have heard stories from some friends in the military of navy and air
force crews "spoofing" civilian sets for practice and for a bit of fun. Not enough to cause harm,
but just playing around for sure. I don't really know what to say. This radar was just a basic
radar with no real advanced features, and the image of the anomaly on his screen was that of a
perfect hollow square... no bluring or anything. Unfortunately, his fishing buddy although within
radio range, was too far to see anything with his more modern radar.

I thought I would run this by the readers of this forum to see if anyone else has experienced
anything like this. It's one of those nagging little mysteries that just sit there and pick at your
brain.

Maybe with the recent reports of malicious civilians flashing commercial aircraft with lasers on the
US eastern seaboard, there's a few others with surplus radio jamming equipment fooling around.
heheheh.. probably not.

"Paul Schilter" wrote:
Perhaps a sub?

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:52:45 GMT, "Richard P." wrote:

Maybe with the recent reports of malicious civilians flashing commercial aircraft with lasers on the
US eastern seaboard, there's a few others with surplus radio jamming equipment fooling around.
heheheh.. probably not.

===================================

Radio jamming gear does not generate perfect squares, more like
intense clutter.

"Richard P." wrote in message
news:x_kId.139449$8l.14285@pd7tw1no...
That was my 2nd thought. I have heard stories from some friends in the
military of navy and air
force crews "spoofing" civilian sets for practice and for a bit of fun.
Not enough to cause harm,
but just playing around for sure.

As an ex B52G Electronic Warfare officer, I am certain that no military
platform would be "spoofing" any civilian for practice or fun. That would be
the end of the guilty party's military career. Electronic emissions are
strictly controlled and allowed only in training areas. We even had to worry
about NASA space missions relaying data to ground stations and at times were
forbidden to even turn on our counter measure systems, much less transmit.
The electromagnetic spectrum is as crowded as our airspace.

Most likely the return was what you would think, a ship just sitting there
for whatever reason.
And visually, boats/ships would not be visible beyond 8ish miles, given
curvature of the earth, height of POV above SL, that sort of thing.


I don't really know what to say. This radar was just a basic
radar with no real advanced features, and the image of the anomaly on his
screen was that of a
perfect hollow square... no bluring or anything. Unfortunately, his
fishing buddy although within
radio range, was too far to see anything with his more modern radar.

I thought I would run this by the readers of this forum to see if anyone
else has experienced
anything like this. It's one of those nagging little mysteries that just
sit there and pick at your
brain.

Maybe with the recent reports of malicious civilians flashing commercial
aircraft with lasers on the
US eastern seaboard, there's a few others with surplus radio jamming
equipment fooling around.
heheheh.. probably not.

"Paul Schilter" wrote:
Perhaps a sub?