I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several
of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two
years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of
all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like
trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand
rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal
on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms
so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of
the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an
international incident what procedures are best in a situation like
this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the
weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could
drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve
them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be
followed?
TIA,
Dennis

Ahoy There Captain:

As a Canadian who sailed extensively along the US East Coast and around
some of the Caribbean, I can only say that ONCE you leave the US
you'll be quite safe.g

In all my years.....and 25,000 miles of cruising.....found it was ONLY
the American sailboats that felt a need to be armed to the teeth.

A Sane.....and Still-Alive.....Canadian
Allan

In article .com,
LEnfantduVent wrote:
Ahoy There Captain:

As a Canadian who sailed extensively along the US East Coast and around
some of the Caribbean, I can only say that ONCE you leave the US
you'll be quite safe.g

In all my years.....and 25,000 miles of cruising.....found it was ONLY
the American sailboats that felt a need to be armed to the teeth.

A Sane.....and Still-Alive.....Canadian
Allan


Well, now that the Krylon vests are found to be no good, we'll have to
be even more aggressive. :-)


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

On 23 Jun 2005 08:20:51 -0700, "twoguns"
wrote:
Since we don't want to have an
international incident what procedures are best in a situation like
this?

To obey the laws regarding firearms in the waters of the countries in
which you sail.


I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the
weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could
drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve
them later.

How this is different from a drug smuggler off-loading bales of drugs
into the sea for "later retrieval" is beyond me. Your hobbies of
sailing and shooting may be incompatible in certain parts of the
world. You'll have to ask country by country. Most places require you
surrender all firearms and all ammo upon first contacting the
authorities/practique/zarpe/what have you. Other places require the
firearms to be locked the entire time aboard. Americans, in
particular, some of whom don't "get it" on how most of the world views
guns on boats, can and will have their vessels seized for violations
of these sort of laws in many places.

Are there any better but legal options that could be
followed?

Almost anything is better than your idea, which may seem clever to
you, but is the equivalent of filling a tank on board with undeclared
rum, or bringing drugs into a country.

Speaking of which, you must carry a "drugs manifest" in many
countries. Some over-the-counter drugs in North America are illegal to
possess without a prescription in some countries, and others are
illegal to possess in the kind of quantities a long-term cruiser might
have on board.

Like bringing foreign fruit in some places, or rabbits to Australia or
uncertified pets to New Zealand, many officials will confiscate or
destroy such items on the spot with no debate.

It's no different from the U.S. banning Canadian beef on suspicion of
BSE, or jailing people with legal medical marijuana outside of their
home jurisdiction. Your country reserves the right to seize my vessel
if Cuban rum is found aboard (perfectly legal to me) or if it is even
suspected I will be travelling to Cuba, without touching a U.S. port.

This is similar.

R.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:07:18 -0400, rhys wrote:



Almost anything is better than your idea, which may seem clever to
you, but is the equivalent of filling a tank on board with undeclared
rum, or bringing drugs into a country.


I agree entirely. From those cruising yachts we have met, it seems
that mainly American yachts feel that carrying guns is necessary. It
should be borne in mind that:

1 Those who are going to attack you are probably more likely to shoot
than you are and probably value life (others) less. We have an
American couple as friends who we have cruised with for a while. He is
a retired IBMer who has never really used a gun. He has an old shotgun
on board that he has so much trouble with every time he enters or
leaves a country - an extra thing to do when you leave. I simply
cannot imagine him pulling the trigger quickly enough to kill someone.
He has different moral values than those that may attack him.

2. Opponents of carrying guns such as Peter Tangveld (lots of cruising
experience) say that if you don't have a weapon you are more likely to
survive - obviously there are exceptions. Tangveld believes that his
wife would not have been shot dead if she had not pointed her rifle.
Their attackers did not harm he or his child but merely took what they
wanted. Peter Blake would not have been shot in the Amazon if he had
not emerged with a firearm. The others with him were not shot.

We personally have met with cruisers who have been attacked by
"pirates" in the Gulf of Yemen; all the boarders wanted was their gear
and money.

3. Legally, guns of any type have to be declared and surrendered to
customs officials or the police on entry in all countries we have
visited so far. There are serious penalties for not doing so. An
Australian customs officer told us that they expect that most US
yachts carry weapons and sometimes search the vessel if none are
declared and the person "seems to be the type who would carry a gun".
An Australian millionare was recently gaoled in Indonesia for not
declaring his weapons. Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore have the
death penalty for having unlicenced firearms (in their countries) and
do hang people for this offence.

4. If you declare your weaponry and surrender it to officials upon
entry to a country then you won't have it when you probably need it
most - few attacks on yachts occur at sea. Most happen whilst at
anchor.

It should be borne in mind that a yacht may be boarded by those with
malice aforethought anywhere. It does not have to be Indonesia or
Brazil. There have been several incidents whilst anchored in the Bay
of Naples and even to a yacht anchored off the city of Messina in
Italy that come to mind. These are acts of piracy too, or are pirates
members of that class only if they wear an eye patch, have a peg leg
and have a parrot on their shoulder?

We have another American friend who sails with his family between
Malaysia and the Phillippines. He has a wooden "replica" of an M-16
that he waves about if suspicious characters come to close. Most
attackers do not want to get hurt either. He dopesn't have to
surrender this to the authorities.

with all of this I admit that I have a 12 gauge flare pistol with
standard flares. It is purely a weapon of final self defence and is
mounted below in its cannister where I can grab it is someone boards
while we are sleeping.

What really worries us and others we have talked to is those who do
carry weaponry. Some Americans are adherents of the gun culture who
seem to think that it is ok to shoot someone even if your property is
being threatened. What if I rowed up to their boat at night for any
reason - might I get shot by a gung-ho John Wayne type?

Peter.
N.Z. yacht Herodotus

If you are right Rhys I guess we will just have to take the slingshots
and bows & arrows and leave the firearms at home. It is not a matter of
feeling a need for protection it is a matter of pure fun. We all enjoy
target shooting in one form or another. As far as know we won't be
entering any pirate infested waters.
Dennis

"Peter Hendra" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:07:18 -0400, rhys wrote:



Almost anything is better than your idea, which may seem clever to
you, but is the equivalent of filling a tank on board with undeclared
rum, or bringing drugs into a country.


I agree entirely. From those cruising yachts we have met, it seems
that mainly American yachts feel that carrying guns is necessary. It
should be borne in mind that:

1 Those who are going to attack you are probably more likely to shoot
than you are and probably value life (others) less. We have an
American couple as friends who we have cruised with for a while. He is
a retired IBMer who has never really used a gun. He has an old shotgun
on board that he has so much trouble with every time he enters or
leaves a country - an extra thing to do when you leave. I simply
cannot imagine him pulling the trigger quickly enough to kill someone.
He has different moral values than those that may attack him.

2. Opponents of carrying guns such as Peter Tangveld (lots of cruising
experience) say that if you don't have a weapon you are more likely to
survive - obviously there are exceptions. Tangveld believes that his
wife would not have been shot dead if she had not pointed her rifle.
Their attackers did not harm he or his child but merely took what they
wanted. Peter Blake would not have been shot in the Amazon if he had
not emerged with a firearm. The others with him were not shot.

We personally have met with cruisers who have been attacked by
"pirates" in the Gulf of Yemen; all the boarders wanted was their gear
and money.

3. Legally, guns of any type have to be declared and surrendered to
customs officials or the police on entry in all countries we have
visited so far. There are serious penalties for not doing so. An
Australian customs officer told us that they expect that most US
yachts carry weapons and sometimes search the vessel if none are
declared and the person "seems to be the type who would carry a gun".
An Australian millionare was recently gaoled in Indonesia for not
declaring his weapons. Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore have the
death penalty for having unlicenced firearms (in their countries) and
do hang people for this offence.

4. If you declare your weaponry and surrender it to officials upon
entry to a country then you won't have it when you probably need it
most - few attacks on yachts occur at sea. Most happen whilst at
anchor.

It should be borne in mind that a yacht may be boarded by those with
malice aforethought anywhere. It does not have to be Indonesia or
Brazil. There have been several incidents whilst anchored in the Bay
of Naples and even to a yacht anchored off the city of Messina in
Italy that come to mind. These are acts of piracy too, or are pirates
members of that class only if they wear an eye patch, have a peg leg
and have a parrot on their shoulder?

We have another American friend who sails with his family between
Malaysia and the Phillippines. He has a wooden "replica" of an M-16
that he waves about if suspicious characters come to close. Most
attackers do not want to get hurt either. He dopesn't have to
surrender this to the authorities.

with all of this I admit that I have a 12 gauge flare pistol with
standard flares. It is purely a weapon of final self defence and is
mounted below in its cannister where I can grab it is someone boards
while we are sleeping.

What really worries us and others we have talked to is those who do
carry weaponry. Some Americans are adherents of the gun culture who
seem to think that it is ok to shoot someone even if your property is
being threatened. What if I rowed up to their boat at night for any
reason - might I get shot by a gung-ho John Wayne type?

Peter.
N.Z. yacht Herodotus

Well, duhhh... just kidding. I guess you never heard about the guy who shot
some kid on Halloween. He warned him off, then shot him. Unfortunately, the
kid didn't speak English.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

HarryKrause wrote:
twoguns wrote:

I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several
of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two
years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of
all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like
trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand
rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal
on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms
so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of
the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an
international incident what procedures are best in a situation like
this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the
weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could
drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve
them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be
followed? TIA,
Dennis



That sounds like a wonderful way to end up the girlfriend of some really
gnarly Mexican prisoner.

You might want to contact the Mexican consulate in your area and get a
take on the proper and legal way to carry firearms into that country.
The outcome likely will be more acceptable to all.


Just in the news this month was a number of American tourists trying to
enter Canada without declaring their firearms. Our border people take
the weapons and fine the guilty party $ 1K.
Some visitors try to hide the firearms in concealed compartments in
their campers. One guy was carrying on a motorcycle. All say they
needed the guns for self-defence. In this end of the country
especially, (Maritime provinces) you will not need protection. bring
lots of Yankee dollahs and we'll make you feel right at
home.....sometimes better than home.
Leave those firearms stateside or at least tell the border guard you
have them. He'll advise you what to do.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:54:02 +1000, Peter Hendra
wrote:

What really worries us and others we have talked to is those who do
carry weaponry. Some Americans are adherents of the gun culture who
seem to think that it is ok to shoot someone even if your property is
being threatened. What if I rowed up to their boat at night for any
reason - might I get shot by a gung-ho John Wayne type?

Peter.
N.Z. yacht Herodotus

Take your "All Americans are pigs" shots to a political group.

Geez

Pride, Integrity, and Guts!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:09:37 -0400, HarryKrause
wrote:

twoguns wrote:
I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several
of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two
years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of
all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like
trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand
rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal
on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms
so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of
the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an
international incident what procedures are best in a situation like
this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the
weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could
drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve
them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be
followed?
TIA,
Dennis

While I'm not sure where you are intending going you do mention "world
cruise" so you may be traveling to my neck of the woods, South East
Asia.

You should be aware that in some countries, Singapore and Malaysia,
for example, the penalty for possession of a firearm or ammunition is
death and before you get any idea that being a U.S. citizen would
protect you if you were to be caught you should be advised that both
Singapore and Malaysia have hung quite a number of foreigners from the
west.

Now, having said that, there are procedures for legally entering both
Singapore and Malaysia with firearms and/or ammunition. Basically you
would advise the Customs and/or Police either prior to entering port
or immediately upon entering port. The Customs/Police would store the
wepons/ammo for you while you were in port and would deliver the
wepons/ammo to your vessel upon your departing - all of this at your
cost.

In Thailand weapons, pistols for example, are classified by caliber or
type. A 9mm might be considered as self protection while a 12 MM (.45)
is considered as a "war weapon" as would an M-16 or AK-47. Posession
of war weapons will certainly get you a number of years in the Thai
prison system. Posession of a "self-defence" weapon will certainly get
you fined, possibly Imprisoned and possibly your boat would be seized.

As for dropping things overboard and logging a GPS position you should
be aware, as the Customs and Police of most countries are, that this
is something that folks who are attempting to deliver "recreational
drugs" sometimes try. They usually get caught.

I'm not trying to scare you or deter you in taking firearms with you
but you should be aware that a large number of countries in the world
are intent on keeping firearms out of the hands of their citizens and
therefore have draconian anti-gun laws that will be appled to anyone
entering the country.









Cheers,

Anon
)