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Head questions galore
I just bought a new boat (to me) and have some head questions.
First some info: Boat - Hunter 34, 1983 Head - Jabsco manual head Now my problems and questions: 1. My toilet is filling up with water after it is pumped dry. I am assuming this is fresh water (lake inlet) but am not usre 2. My holding tank seems to be filling up a lot faster than it should. I have about a 20 gallon holding tank and it is full after a day sail with light use. Keep in mind this includes a week's worth of sitting without use. 3. I'm not familar with one part of the unit...Right next to the head there is a manual pump. A hose comes in through a thru-hull and does a loop that wraps back through the pump and to the holding tank. Is this to pump out of the tank to the lake or the opposite? Any help would be appreciated. |
Head questions galore
Your first mistake was buying a Hunter. sorry.
G wrote in message oups.com... I just bought a new boat (to me) and have some head questions. First some info: Boat - Hunter 34, 1983 Head - Jabsco manual head Now my problems and questions: 1. My toilet is filling up with water after it is pumped dry. I am assuming this is fresh water (lake inlet) but am not usre 2. My holding tank seems to be filling up a lot faster than it should. I have about a 20 gallon holding tank and it is full after a day sail with light use. Keep in mind this includes a week's worth of sitting without use. 3. I'm not familar with one part of the unit...Right next to the head there is a manual pump. A hose comes in through a thru-hull and does a loop that wraps back through the pump and to the holding tank. Is this to pump out of the tank to the lake or the opposite? Any help would be appreciated. |
Head questions galore
|
Head questions galore
wrote:
I just bought a new boat (to me) and have some head questions. Hoooboy...:) Head - Jabsco manual head Now my problems and questions: 1. My toilet is filling up with water after it is pumped dry. Most likely that's because the toilet is below the waterline, there is no vented loop in the head intake, and you're leaving the pump in the "wet" mode. See (download and print) the installation instructions and operation manual for your toilet he http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overv...10-0000_ds.pdf 2. My holding tank seems to be filling up a lot faster than it should. I have about a 20 gallon holding tank and it is full after a day sail with light use. Keep in mind this includes a week's worth of sitting without use. Always flushing only in the "wet" mode and leaving the head intake seacock open will do that. 3. I'm not familar with one part of the unit...Right next to the head there is a manual pump. A hose comes in through a thru-hull and does a loop that wraps back through the pump and to the holding tank. Is this to pump out of the tank to the lake or the opposite? I'm not sure from your description of it. Can you email me a photo or a sketch of the installation? peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Any help would be appreciated. Start by reading what passes for a manual at the link I gave you. I'll be glad to answer any more questions after you've read it (and I'm 99% sure your first will be "what's a vented loop?") -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
That's not a very nice answer. It's still a sailboat.
If working properly, the manual pump will pump whatever is in the bowl out, and can also pump seawater into the bowl if desired. My experience is w/ a newer Jabsco, but should be the same. Sounds like your pump needs a rebuild kit, also a vented loop in the hose between the top of the pump and the top of the bowl. I think the lake is slowly filling your tank all the time. "G&G" wrote in message . .. Your first mistake was buying a Hunter. sorry. G wrote in message oups.com... I just bought a new boat (to me) and have some head questions. First some info: Boat - Hunter 34, 1983 Head - Jabsco manual head Now my problems and questions: 1. My toilet is filling up with water after it is pumped dry. I am assuming this is fresh water (lake inlet) but am not usre 2. My holding tank seems to be filling up a lot faster than it should. I have about a 20 gallon holding tank and it is full after a day sail with light use. Keep in mind this includes a week's worth of sitting without use. 3. I'm not familar with one part of the unit...Right next to the head there is a manual pump. A hose comes in through a thru-hull and does a loop that wraps back through the pump and to the holding tank. Is this to pump out of the tank to the lake or the opposite? Any help would be appreciated. |
Head questions galore
Sounds like your pump needs a rebuild kit, also a vented loop in the hose
between the top of the pump and the top of the bowl. I think the lake is slowly filling your tank all the time. I agree with your diagnosis, but only part of your recommended cure....neither rebuilding nor replacing the joker valve can solve every problem...in fact, actually doesn't solve 99.999% of problems. Rebuilding the toilet (replacing all the rubber parts in the pump) will not prevent water from flooding the bowl via an open through-hull if the pump in left in the "wet" mode. In the absense of a vented loop, a failed wet/dry valve (VERY common in Jabsco toilets unfortunately) could allow water to flood the bowl even if the lever is in the dry mode...but rebuilding the toilet won't cure that because the necessary replacement part isn't in the rebuild kit. So as long the toilet is bringing in flush water and pushing bowl contents out, rebuilding ANY toilet (rebuilding a Jabsco for any reason is just throwing good money after bad) would be a waste of time, energy and money. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
I figured the rubber valve at top of the pump could leak and bypass water.
And you are certainly right about the possibility of the lever being left in the wet position. My old boat csme with no vented loop, and if someone was careless, the water would nearly fill the bowl. "Peggie Hall" wrote in message . net... Sounds like your pump needs a rebuild kit, also a vented loop in the hose between the top of the pump and the top of the bowl. I think the lake is slowly filling your tank all the time. I agree with your diagnosis, but only part of your recommended cure....neither rebuilding nor replacing the joker valve can solve every problem...in fact, actually doesn't solve 99.999% of problems. Rebuilding the toilet (replacing all the rubber parts in the pump) will not prevent water from flooding the bowl via an open through-hull if the pump in left in the "wet" mode. In the absense of a vented loop, a failed wet/dry valve (VERY common in Jabsco toilets unfortunately) could allow water to flood the bowl even if the lever is in the dry mode...but rebuilding the toilet won't cure that because the necessary replacement part isn't in the rebuild kit. So as long the toilet is bringing in flush water and pushing bowl contents out, rebuilding ANY toilet (rebuilding a Jabsco for any reason is just throwing good money after bad) would be a waste of time, energy and money. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Peter Bennett wrote:
On most sailboats, the bottom of the head is below the waterline, so the outside water is likely to flow (or seep) through the pump into the bowl. If it looks like the water will overflow the bowl while sailing, it may be necessary to keep the intake seacock closed except while flushing the head. Productions boat builders put intake seacocks in locations that can make that so impractical as to be impossible. My guess (till I hear more from him) is that a) he doesn't know what the wet/dry lever is for...he's been leaving it in the wet mode all the time...b) there is no vented loop in the head intake (which should be between the pump and bowl, btw...not between the thru-hull and the pump)...and c) he doesn't know that all thru-hulls should be closed when leaving the boat. There should be a pump immediately to the right of the head bowl, and mounted on the same pipe that supports the bowl. This pump has two parts, and will pump outside water into the bowl for flushing, as well as pumping waste from the bowl to the holding tank. Do you have a second pump there? A Jabsco toilet--which is what he has--has only one dual action pump. In the "wet" mode, it brings in flush water AND pushes bowl contents out...in the "dry" mode, it pushes bowl contents out without bringing in any flush water. I would think that the only thing that can get into the holding tank is what you pump there while flushing the head. Since he's indicated that his bowl is filling with clean water, it's unlikely that his holding tank is filling to overflowing and running back toward into the bowl. Nor is it likely that a fouled joker valve has any bearing on it. Whizzit that everyone wants to blame the joked valve for ANY toilet problem, even flush water intake issues??? -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Garland Gray II wrote:
I figured the rubber valve at top of the pump could leak and bypass water. And you are certainly right about the possibility of the lever being left in the wet position. My old boat csme with no vented loop, and if someone was careless, the water would nearly fill the bowl. So it's safe to assume that you DID install a vented loop? Which, btw, should NOT be installed in the intake line between the thru-hull and the pump..it has to go between the pump and the bowl...to replace the short piece of hose the mfr uses to connect 'em. There are exceptions...electric macerating toilets--in which case it's necessary to add an electric solenoid valve--and some very high end manual toilets that have dual pumps and don't have that short piece of hose. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Peggie Hall wrote:
wrote: I just bought a new boat (to me) and have some head questions. Hoooboy...:) Head - Jabsco manual head Now my problems and questions: 1. My toilet is filling up with water after it is pumped dry. Most likely that's because the toilet is below the waterline, there is no vented loop in the head intake, and you're leaving the pump in the "wet" mode. See (download and print) the installation instructions and operation manual for your toilet he http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overv...10-0000_ds.pdf 2. My holding tank seems to be filling up a lot faster than it should. I have about a 20 gallon holding tank and it is full after a day sail with light use. Keep in mind this includes a week's worth of sitting without use. Always flushing only in the "wet" mode and leaving the head intake seacock open will do that. 3. I'm not familar with one part of the unit...Right next to the head there is a manual pump. A hose comes in through a thru-hull and does a loop that wraps back through the pump and to the holding tank. Is this to pump out of the tank to the lake or the opposite? I'm not sure from your description of it. Can you email me a photo or a sketch of the installation? peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Any help would be appreciated. Start by reading what passes for a manual at the link I gave you. I'll be glad to answer any more questions after you've read it (and I'm 99% sure your first will be "what's a vented loop?") A vented loop can be made from half of a 2 part "P" trap intended for use under your kitchen sink. The proper style has a drain plug on it's normal bottom. The plug may be fitted with a shraeder valve, like on your bicycle inner tube or car wheel if you care to roll your own. The shraeder valve must be adjusted for a very low pressure seal by adjusting it with a shraeder valve tool. You should be able to blow through it, but not suck. The vented loop is created by mounting the trap upside down on the top of two vertical pipes connected to the remainder of the piping in use. If vibration tolerant couplings are used, rigid pipe may couple to other piping, or semi flexible plastic pipe. I would use an MJ, or mechanical joint Have used several with excellent results. The MJ was invented for the Diefenbunker, nuclear defence against toilets backing up with over pressure shock waves. The p trap should be situated at a point that does not usually go below the waterline, but that is negotiable. It's function is to allow low atmospheric pressure inside the piping to "suck in" air, thus defeating any syphon effect which would otherwise occur. Proper anti syphon loops are available in cast platinum at marine stores. Lesser metals like bronze are almost as expensive. You should be able to see if the head is pumping water into it's self when you pump the pump. If it is, flip the little lever switch you will find if you look, and pumping again, observe the head is pumped dry and your tank will not fill so quickly. This limits slopping contents when at sea. I not, you will need to replace, or possibly only clean the duck billed, or joker valve. Buy one, since you will need a spare, then disassemble the pump to replace it. If the old one is torn or warped you will need to replace it, if not, you may be able to clean it. It would probably tear the day after you return the un needed spare, or be just wrong enough that it won't work if you need it. This should illustrate why it is called a joker valve. The joke would be on you. Three lobed valves mimic heart valves, but without ligaments, are not as reliable as possible. Crap overboard when you can. A flexible snow slider carpet may be of assistance keeping topsides clear for neccessary bodily functions. It can be towed by floating line to rinse, and seized up using the commissionaire knot, a crochet, over the bulwark to be used. That funny, unused alladin clip on the backstay is to permit a good rig to suspend the stern ladder horizontally for use as a sea head frame with backrest "sissy bars" support and dinghy dock towing harness. The horse shoe MOB float makes a good seat cushion. With a proper umbrella, a shower curtain, the times, a good cigar, LED headlight and an ipod, how could life be better than with an autopilot and self tacking jib? Clinging desperate and naked to it, you are legal to do that for which fishes and birds need no license. A proper harness developed from this arrangement might enable a sea bath under way, even body surfing. Rinse with a fresh water washcloth to avoid salt water boils. Wash clothing during rainy periods. There is never enough toilet paper at sea, Billy. Terry K |
Head questions galore
Thanks for all the info. I am familiar with the toilet and the wet/dry
mode. That definitely isn't the issue as I move the lever to dry after each use. Even in the dry mode, water is entering the head. As simple as it sounds, I believe the issue is that I've been leaving the seacock during the week when I'm not using the boat. I guess I need to close the seacock between uses as well. This is inconvenient, but possible as I have pretty easy access to the seacock. I am still not sure about the second pump that I have. I will take pictures and send, but here's a bit better explanation of if: The pump is a hand pump similar to a manual bilge pump. It forms an upside down "T". 1. Hose enters boat through seacock and does a loop to about 5' in the air. This is a 2nd seacock - not the one used for water to enter the head. It is also larger. Probably 1 1/2" hose vs. the smaller used for the head intake. 2. It goes back to form the stick part of the T. 3. On the "across" part of the T (bottom of pump), there is flow going from holding tank to the pump out access on the deck. I am assuming this is used to help push the material out and to flush the system. |
Head questions galore
Hobieshane wrote: Thanks for all the info. I am familiar with the toilet and the wet/dry mode. That definitely isn't the issue as I move the lever to dry after each use. Even in the dry mode, water is entering the head. As simple as it sounds, I believe the issue is that I've been leaving the seacock during the week when I'm not using the boat. It's actually two issues--open seacock AND the wet/dry cam in the pump has failed...it's not cutting off the flow of flush water any more. That's a VERY common problem in Jabsco toilets made in the 5-6 years, due to either a design or tooling defect. And apparently Jabsco has no intention of correcting it till the mold for that little part wears out. It also provides an excellent illustration of why relying on the wet/dry valve instead of closing the seacocks when leaving the boat is VERY risky...'cuz while it's a common problem in Jabsco toilets, no toilet is immune from wet/dry valve failure. I guess I need to close the seacock between uses as well. This is inconvenient, but possible as I have pretty easy access to the seacock. A vented loop in the head intake would prevent water from rising in the bowl while the boat is at rest, but would not prevent it while the boat is underway. So, yes...till you replace the wet dry valve--or better yet, replace the toilet with one that's better quality--you will have to keep the seacocks closed between uses while underway, but if you install a loop, you could leave 'em open at the dock. I am still not sure about the second pump that I have. I will take pictures and send, but here's a bit better explanation of if: The pump is a hand pump similar to a manual bilge pump. It forms an upside down "T". 1. Hose enters boat through seacock and does a loop to about 5' in the air. This is a 2nd seacock - not the one used for water to enter the head. It is also larger. Probably 1 1/2" hose vs. the smaller used for the head intake. That's your head DISCHARGE...the hose EXITS the boat at that thru-hull. There should be a y-valve in that line that allows you to choose between flushing directly overboard or into the tank. What passes for a manual for your toilet is on the Jabsco website he http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overv...UAL_TOILET.PDF You can see a drawing and illustrations of typical installations...I think if you compare those illustrations to what you have, what you have will become a lot clearer. 2. It goes back to form the stick part of the T. 3. On the "across" part of the T (bottom of pump), there is flow going from holding tank to the pump out access on the deck. I am assuming this is used to help push the material out and to flush the system. None of that makes any sense...I'm gonna have to see some photos and sketches of the plumbing runs to know what you have. What you SHOULD have: 3/4" ID hose from intake through-hull to the pump...at the back on the bottom of the "compartment" that houses the wet/dry lever and cam. There should be no loop in that line. 3/4" hose coming off the top of the pump to the inlet fitting on the back of the bowl. The should be a vented loop in that line that's high enough to be at least 6-8" above the waterline at any angle of heel...but there may not be...it may be only a short piece of hose between the pump and bowl. Both the pump and the bowl rest on a cross piece called the base. It's not a pump...the Jabsco manual only has one dual action pump. 1" or 1.5" hose off the back of the bottom of the pump that MAY go only to a tank, or may go to a y-valve...one side of the y-valve up and over a vented loop (same height as the intake loop) and to a thru-hull..the other side to a fitting at or on the top of the tank. 1/5" hose coming off the tank at the bottom...it will either go directly the deck pumpout fitting, or MAY go to either a y-valve or tee fitting...one side to the deck pumpout fitting, the other side to a pump (manual diaphragm...i.e. Whale Gusher, or electric macerator pump), then up and over yet a 3rd vented loop to a thru-hull--which may be separate from the direct toilet discharge thru-hull, or may be teed into that line to use the same thru-hull. If what you have is much different from that, it's plumbed incorrectly and needs to be corrected...but I suspect that's pretty much what you have--+/- some or all vented loops. If you aren't sure what things like manual discharge pumps, macerators, y-valves (aka diverter valves) and vented loops look like, do a search for 'em on any of the marine retail sites. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
It's starting to make more sense now.
First, I need to replace my wet/dry cam. Second, It looks like I have two options for pumping out the holding tank: 1. Through the deck fitting or 2. Through the 1.5" hose exiting the hull next to the fresh water intake seacock. The whale pump appears to pump from the tank, go through a vented loop, and exit the thru-hull. What I am still confused about is that the pump out deck hose is connected to this as well. Is it as simple as when the thru-hull is open, the whale pumps out through it? Otherwise, I would pump out through the deck fitting. I do want to note to everyone that I know to not pump directly to the lake as I am inland. |
Head questions galore
Hobieshane wrote:
First, I need to replace my wet/dry cam. Sincee that may cost you half the price of whole new Jabsco toilet (which gives you an idea of their quality), I'd replace the whole toilet with a better one if it were my boat...but that's up to you. The whale pump appears to pump from the tank, go through a vented loop, and exit the thru-hull. What I am still confused about is that the pump out deck hose is connected to this as well. Is it as simple as when the thru-hull is open, the whale pumps out through it? Otherwise, I would pump out through the deck fitting. If there's only a tee or wye fitting in that line, yup...it's that simple. If there's a y-valve, it's almost that simple...you just have to turn the handle on the y-valve to direct the flow from the tank to the pump instead of the deck pumpout fitting. However, I forgot to mention one more hose that comes off the tank: the tank vent line, which will come off the tank at or on the top and go to an above-waterline thru-hull fitting (btw, all your tanks--water, waste and fuel--have vents, so this applies to 'em all) that'll most likely be somewhere near the toe rail. It's essential to make sure the vent line never becomes clogged...'cuz if it does, air displaced by incoming flushes has nowhere to escape...the tank will become pressurized--which can have disastrous consequences, from an eruption in the toilet or out the deck pumpout fitting to a burst tank--and it will also be impossible to empty the tank, because the pumpout will pull a vacuum. A strong pumpout can even implode a tank. So check your vent thru-hull regularly...backflush it each time you pumpout and/or wash the boat. And cease all use of the toilet immediately if you start to experience increasing backpressure or the toilet "burps" or backs up till the vent has been cleared. I do want to note to everyone that I know to not pump directly to the lake as I am inland. In that case, you need to check with local law enforcement to find out whether you'll have remove the manual pump and all plumbing from the toilet and/or tank to the overboard discharge thru-hulls. Although simply "securing" the system from "accidental" overboard discharge as prescribed by federal law is legal in coastal waters, some states have made it illegal even to have the ability to discharge the toilet or tank on inland waters. As a new Hunter owner, you might want to check out this site: http://www.hunterowners.com/index.htm I think you'll enjoy it AND learn a lot from the other owners there. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Actually, at the time I didn't know better, so I did not install a vented
loop. I'm sure I thought you couldn't put one on the intake side. (This was a catamaran, so heeling didn't make the risk greater. ) Now that I think about it, the survey (it was a 6 month old demonstrator boat) didn't make mention of this deficiency. But let me ask you about a related "theory" I have. My old boat w/o a vented loop had very little odor from the raw water after the head had not been used for a week or two or more. Only briefly after the first flush. My present boat w/ a vented loop has a much stronger odor from the raw water for many flushes. The longer raw water line because of the way the vented loop is run must affect this, but I wonder if the contact with air in the vented loop doesn't cause a greater odor problem ? "Peggie Hall" wrote in message . net... Garland Gray II wrote: I figured the rubber valve at top of the pump could leak and bypass water. And you are certainly right about the possibility of the lever being left in the wet position. My old boat csme with no vented loop, and if someone was careless, the water would nearly fill the bowl. So it's safe to assume that you DID install a vented loop? Which, btw, should NOT be installed in the intake line between the thru-hull and the pump..it has to go between the pump and the bowl...to replace the short piece of hose the mfr uses to connect 'em. There are exceptions...electric macerating toilets--in which case it's necessary to add an electric solenoid valve--and some very high end manual toilets that have dual pumps and don't have that short piece of hose. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Thanks !
"Terry Spragg" wrote in message .. . Peggie Hall wrote: wrote: I just bought a new boat (to me) and have some head questions. Hoooboy...:) Head - Jabsco manual head Now my problems and questions: 1. My toilet is filling up with water after it is pumped dry. Most likely that's because the toilet is below the waterline, there is no vented loop in the head intake, and you're leaving the pump in the "wet" mode. See (download and print) the installation instructions and operation manual for your toilet he http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overv...10-0000_ds.pdf 2. My holding tank seems to be filling up a lot faster than it should. I have about a 20 gallon holding tank and it is full after a day sail with light use. Keep in mind this includes a week's worth of sitting without use. Always flushing only in the "wet" mode and leaving the head intake seacock open will do that. 3. I'm not familar with one part of the unit...Right next to the head there is a manual pump. A hose comes in through a thru-hull and does a loop that wraps back through the pump and to the holding tank. Is this to pump out of the tank to the lake or the opposite? I'm not sure from your description of it. Can you email me a photo or a sketch of the installation? peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Any help would be appreciated. Start by reading what passes for a manual at the link I gave you. I'll be glad to answer any more questions after you've read it (and I'm 99% sure your first will be "what's a vented loop?") A vented loop can be made from half of a 2 part "P" trap intended for use under your kitchen sink. The proper style has a drain plug on it's normal bottom. The plug may be fitted with a shraeder valve, like on your bicycle inner tube or car wheel if you care to roll your own. The shraeder valve must be adjusted for a very low pressure seal by adjusting it with a shraeder valve tool. You should be able to blow through it, but not suck. The vented loop is created by mounting the trap upside down on the top of two vertical pipes connected to the remainder of the piping in use. If vibration tolerant couplings are used, rigid pipe may couple to other piping, or semi flexible plastic pipe. I would use an MJ, or mechanical joint Have used several with excellent results. The MJ was invented for the Diefenbunker, nuclear defence against toilets backing up with over pressure shock waves. The p trap should be situated at a point that does not usually go below the waterline, but that is negotiable. It's function is to allow low atmospheric pressure inside the piping to "suck in" air, thus defeating any syphon effect which would otherwise occur. Proper anti syphon loops are available in cast platinum at marine stores. Lesser metals like bronze are almost as expensive. You should be able to see if the head is pumping water into it's self when you pump the pump. If it is, flip the little lever switch you will find if you look, and pumping again, observe the head is pumped dry and your tank will not fill so quickly. This limits slopping contents when at sea. I not, you will need to replace, or possibly only clean the duck billed, or joker valve. Buy one, since you will need a spare, then disassemble the pump to replace it. If the old one is torn or warped you will need to replace it, if not, you may be able to clean it. It would probably tear the day after you return the un needed spare, or be just wrong enough that it won't work if you need it. This should illustrate why it is called a joker valve. The joke would be on you. Three lobed valves mimic heart valves, but without ligaments, are not as reliable as possible. Crap overboard when you can. A flexible snow slider carpet may be of assistance keeping topsides clear for neccessary bodily functions. It can be towed by floating line to rinse, and seized up using the commissionaire knot, a crochet, over the bulwark to be used. That funny, unused alladin clip on the backstay is to permit a good rig to suspend the stern ladder horizontally for use as a sea head frame with backrest "sissy bars" support and dinghy dock towing harness. The horse shoe MOB float makes a good seat cushion. With a proper umbrella, a shower curtain, the times, a good cigar, LED headlight and an ipod, how could life be better than with an autopilot and self tacking jib? Clinging desperate and naked to it, you are legal to do that for which fishes and birds need no license. A proper harness developed from this arrangement might enable a sea bath under way, even body surfing. Rinse with a fresh water washcloth to avoid salt water boils. Wash clothing during rainy periods. There is never enough toilet paper at sea, Billy. Terry K |
Head questions galore
Garland Gray II wrote:
Actually, at the time I didn't know better, so I did not install a vented loop. I'm sure I thought you couldn't put one on the intake side. (This was a catamaran, so heeling didn't make the risk greater. ) Now that I think about it, the survey (it was a 6 month old demonstrator boat) didn't make mention of this deficiency. If the toilet is completely above the waterline, it wasn't. But let me ask you about a related "theory" I have. My old boat w/o a vented loop had very little odor from the raw water after the head had not been used for a week or two or more. Only briefly after the first flush. My present boat w/ a vented loop has a much stronger odor from the raw water for many flushes. The longer raw water line because of the way the vented loop is run must affect this, but I wonder if the contact with air in the vented loop doesn't cause a greater odor problem ? The longer head intake line is likely to be the cause, because the longer the line, the more sea water is left in it to sit and stagnate. But the vented loop has nothing to do with it. For one thing, it doesn't passively allow any air into the line, it only pulls air into a line through which water is actively being pulled. But even if it did, adding air (oxygen) would reduce odor, not increase it...'cuz the more aerobic the conditions, the less odor can be produced. However, if the vented loop is in the intake line between the thru-hull and the pump, it is likely to create another problem: interfere with the pump's ability to prime by introducing air into the line that the pump is trying to start by priming. It needs to be between the pump and the bowl where it can't interfere with toilet flushing because flush water is being pushed, not pulled, from the pump to the bowl. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Wait a sec...
A vented loop can be made from half of a 2 part "P" trap intended for use under your kitchen sink. The proper style has a drain plug on it's normal bottom. The plug may be fitted with a shraeder valve, like on your bicycle inner tube or car wheel if you care to roll your own. The shraeder valve must be adjusted for a very low pressure seal by adjusting it with a shraeder valve tool. You should be able to blow through it, but not suck. If I'm understanding what you're saying, it should be just the opposite...'cuz the function of a vented loop is twofold...1) it creats an arch in the line above the waterline...and 2) it's suppose only alow INTO a line, nothing out. The vented loop is created by mounting the trap upside down on the top of two vertical pipes connected to the remainder of the piping in use. If vibration tolerant couplings are used, rigid pipe may couple to other piping, or semi flexible plastic pipe. I would use an MJ, or mechanical joint Have used several with excellent results. The MJ was invented for the Diefenbunker, nuclear defence against toilets backing up with over pressure shock waves. The p trap should be situated at a point that does not usually go below the waterline, but that is negotiable. It's function is to allow low atmospheric pressure inside the piping to "suck in" air, thus defeating any syphon effect which would otherwise occur. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler and cheaper to simply drill a hole in the trap and buy an air valve to put in the hole? Proper anti syphon loops are available in cast platinum at marine stores. Lesser metals like bronze are almost as expensive. PVC vented loops are also availalble, and priced pretty reasonably. You should be able to see if the head is pumping water into it's self when you pump the pump. If it is, flip the little lever switch you will find if you look, and pumping again, observe the head is pumped dry and your tank will not fill so quickly. Simply put, the most water efficient way: ahead of use, pump the head a couple of times to wet the bowl...switch to dry. After use, pump enough times in the dry mode to move the bowl contents all the way to the tank (or out the thru-hull if at sea beyond the "3 mile limit")...switch to "wet" for only enough pumps to rinse the bowl...then back to "dry" to pump the "rinse water" all the way through the system. Before you ask...any marine toilet that's working anywhere near spec can move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode. If your tank or thru-hull is significantly further away than 6', it's a badly designed system. you will need to replace, or possibly only clean the duck billed, or joker valve. As a live-aboard, replace it once a year...the average "weekend warrior" should replace it at least every two years. Buy one, since you will need a spare, then disassemble the pump to replace it. Why should you need to do that? The joker valve is in the head discharge fitting, which isn't part of the pump, but only attached to it. Replacing a joker valve only requires removing the screws that hold the discharge fitting onto the pump. If the old one is torn or warped you will need to replace it, if not, you may be able to clean it. If it's more than a year or two old, the slit will no longer be a slit, but a hole...no longer able to function as the one-way valve it's designed to be. Regardless of any other condition, if you can see ANY daylight when you look through it, replace it. I've never seen one torn that shouldn't have been replaced at least a decade earlier. Three lobed valves mimic heart valves, but without ligaments, are not as reliable as possible. Joker valves don't have lobes...the most common are a cup with a single slit...a few are a cup with a + in the bottom instead of a slit...but they're all just cup shaped doodads with a flange (that doubles as the gasket between the fitting and the pump), a single - or + slits in the bottom, and "lips" on the outside of the cup. Crap overboard when you can. A flexible snow slider carpet may be of assistance keeping topsides clear for neccessary bodily functions. It can be towed by floating line to rinse, and seized up using the commissionaire knot, a crochet, over the bulwark to be used. Wouldn't a bucket on a long line be a lot cleaner and easier? As for the rest...you have a wonderful imagination, Terry..but not a lot of practical experience. If I'm wrong about that last part, please send demonstration videos shot in 4-6' seas at least 20 miles offshore...I'll add narration, send 'em to "America's Funniest..." and split the take with you. :) -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
"Peggie Hall" wrote in message . net... Garland Gray II wrote: Actually, at the time I didn't know better, so I did not install a vented loop. I'm sure I thought you couldn't put one on the intake side. (This was a catamaran, so heeling didn't make the risk greater. ) Now that I think about it, the survey (it was a 6 month old demonstrator boat) didn't make mention of this deficiency. If the toilet is completely above the waterline, it wasn't. It was almost completely below waterline. But let me ask you about a related "theory" I have. My old boat w/o a vented loop had very little odor from the raw water after the head had not been used for a week or two or more. Only briefly after the first flush. My present boat w/ a vented loop has a much stronger odor from the raw water for many flushes. The longer raw water line because of the way the vented loop is run must affect this, but I wonder if the contact with air in the vented loop doesn't cause a greater odor problem ? The longer head intake line is likely to be the cause, because the longer the line, the more sea water is left in it to sit and stagnate. But the vented loop has nothing to do with it. For one thing, it doesn't passively allow any air into the line, it only pulls air into a line through which water is actively being pulled. But even if it did, adding air (oxygen) would reduce odor, not increase it...'cuz the more aerobic the conditions, the less odor can be produced. I expect that the water between the vented loop and the bowl that is higher than the top of the bowl eventually drains to the bowl, to be replaced by air. But I'll trust your knowledge of bacteria. However, if the vented loop is in the intake line between the thru-hull and the pump, it is likely to create another problem: interfere with the pump's ability to prime by introducing air into the line that the pump is trying to start by priming. It needs to be between the pump and the bowl where it can't interfere with toilet flushing because flush water is being pushed, not pulled, from the pump to the bowl. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Garland Gray II wrote:
Now that I think about it, the survey (it was a 6 month old demonstrator boat) didn't make mention of this deficiency. If the toilet is completely above the waterline, it wasn't. It was almost completely below waterline. In that case, it WAS! I expect that the water between the vented loop and the bowl that is higher than the top of the bowl eventually drains to the bowl, to be replaced by air. But not before it stagnates in the anaerobic environment inside the hose...and could very well stay till it's flushed out if the wet/dry valves in the toilet is working as it should. However, you're overlooking the water that's also left in the intake tank between the thru-hull and the top of the loop, that has nowhere to go till it's flushed out when the seacock is opened again. I suspect that's where the worst of the problem occurs. It's easy to solve: Tee the head intake into the head sink drain. Flush using sea water...then, when leaving the boat, after you've closed all the seacocks, fill the sink with clean fresh water...flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink, rinsing all the sea water out of the WHOLE system (just pouring water down the toilet only rinses out the head discharge line...it doesn't ever get into the intake). Or, you can flush with fresh water all the time by keeping the seacock closed and adding water to the sink..though you really don't gain anything over just flushing all the sea water out before the boat sits. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Dave wrote:
First, if it's fairly well-known that air into the holding tank is the key to odor-free operation, why doesn't one see more holding tanks with two vent lines instead of one? Tank locations don't always make two vents better than one. And, at least as when it comes to OEM installations, cost. And, two vents aren't necessarily better than one. A short straight vent 1" vent line can keep a tank just as odor-free as two "standard" size 5/8" vents...maybe even do a better job. When it comes to venting a tank, there isn't a "one size fits all" solution for every installation. 10 vents couldn't make some tanks aerobic enough to prevent odor..tanks buried way low on a deep keel, or the centerline of a large boat...tanks much deeper than about 20"...most bladders... For some tanks, the only solution is an aeration system. I'm also wondering whether a single vent tank might be improved by putting a T fitting at the tank outlet and running a second vent hose to the other side of the boat from where the current outlet runs. That won't work...air flow would just be across the top of the tee instead of going through the tank. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
I plumbed the heads just that way about 4 years ago...following your
suggestion . And rinse w/ fresh water religiously before leaving the boat. But we are greeted w/ a stench each time. Perhaps the intake lines need a clorox treatment since the replumbing was not done for the first year, but I don't really want to send clorox to the tank (discharge goes straight there). "Peggie Hall" wrote in message . com... Garland Gray II wrote: Now that I think about it, the survey (it was a 6 month old demonstrator boat) didn't make mention of this deficiency. If the toilet is completely above the waterline, it wasn't. It was almost completely below waterline. In that case, it WAS! I expect that the water between the vented loop and the bowl that is higher than the top of the bowl eventually drains to the bowl, to be replaced by air. But not before it stagnates in the anaerobic environment inside the hose...and could very well stay till it's flushed out if the wet/dry valves in the toilet is working as it should. However, you're overlooking the water that's also left in the intake tank between the thru-hull and the top of the loop, that has nowhere to go till it's flushed out when the seacock is opened again. I suspect that's where the worst of the problem occurs. It's easy to solve: Tee the head intake into the head sink drain. Flush using sea water...then, when leaving the boat, after you've closed all the seacocks, fill the sink with clean fresh water...flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink, rinsing all the sea water out of the WHOLE system (just pouring water down the toilet only rinses out the head discharge line...it doesn't ever get into the intake). Or, you can flush with fresh water all the time by keeping the seacock closed and adding water to the sink..though you really don't gain anything over just flushing all the sea water out before the boat sits. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Garland Gray II wrote:
I plumbed the heads just that way about 4 years ago...following your suggestion . And rinse w/ fresh water religiously before leaving the boat. But we are greeted w/ a stench each time. Perhaps the intake lines need a clorox treatment since the replumbing was not done for the first year.... Noooo! If you plumbed your head intake to the sink drain line, and you religiously flush ALL the sea water out of the system before the boat will sit, you shouldn't have any odor in the first flush when you return. If you do, we need to find out why and figure out how to eliminate the problem. Email me: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Peggie Hall wrote:
Noooo! If you plumbed your head intake to the sink drain line, and you religiously flush ALL the sea water out of the system before the boat will sit, you shouldn't have any odor in the first flush when you return. If you do, we need to find out why and figure out how to eliminate the problem. Email me: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Peggie, We're considering a couple of different fresh water flushing arangements for our system. If we use the "tee" to the sink, we would need to flush with the drain plug in place to use salt water. Is that correct? In our system, it would probably be easier to "tee" to a capped hose which could be uncapped and stuck in a bucket when we want to flush with fresh water. Is there any reason why this would be a bad idea? Also, can you recommend a good pump lubricant for a Raritan Compact II head? I found some Wilcox Criton head lubricant, but it says it contains mineral spirits which I don't think would be good for the parts. Thanks Cindy -- The email address above is a spam trap. Don't expect a response. Reach me using firstname at lastname dot net |
Head questions galore
Cindy Ballreich wrote:
We're considering a couple of different fresh water flushing arangements for our system. If we use the "tee" to the sink, we would need to flush with the drain plug in place to use salt water. Is that correct? Correct. In our system, it would probably be easier to "tee" to a capped hose which could be uncapped and stuck in a bucket when we want to flush with fresh water. Is there any reason why this would be a bad idea? Not a bad idea, but a lot more work than it needs to be unless you only plan to use it to flush out the system before the boat will sit. If you want to flush all the time with fresh water, and if teeing the intake directly into the head sink drain is impractical, consider going with this "Plan B:" Stuff an unvented bladder into any location that'll work...connect the head intake to the bladder...tee the fill line for the bladder into the head sink drain line using a garden hose y-valve that you can get from any hardware store for about $3. When the bladder needs refilling, open the y in the sink drain to go it, run water down the sink. A y-valve in the head intake line--one side to the bladder, the other to the thru-hull--will let you have it both ways...flush with sea water while well away from shore in clean water...switch to the bladder while in the marina or other waters polluted by runoff. Also, can you recommend a good pump lubricant for a Raritan Compact II head? I found some Wilcox Criton head lubricant, but it says it contains mineral spirits which I don't think would be good for the parts. Mineral spirits won't hurt 'em. Mineral OIL (baby oil) works just as well and costs less. But anything thin enough to be poured down the toilet is just gonna wash out in a few flushes...it's a never ending battle. Every toilet leaves the factory slathered with thick teflon grease that lasts at least a full season, sometimes two season. So if you only want to have to lube the toilet once a year, buy a tube of the stuff (SuperLube is what Raritan uses, and IMO the best quality...but any teflon grease from bike shops and swimming pool supply stores will do)...it'll cost you about $5 and one tube will last longer than you'll prob'ly keep the boat. Loosen the hex nut on the top of the pump so you have access to the inside of it...stick the nozzle of the tube in and give it healthy squirt. Pump a couple of times to spread it all over the inside of the pump cylinder...repeat if you want to...re-tighten the hex nut...you're done. The toilet will pump smoothly all season without any need for any more lubrication. Best time to do it: as part of spring recommissioning preventive maintenance. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Head questions galore
Peggie Hall wrote:
In our system, it would probably be easier to "tee" to a capped hose which could be uncapped and stuck in a bucket when we want to flush with fresh water. Is there any reason why this would be a bad idea? Not a bad idea, but a lot more work than it needs to be unless you only plan to use it to flush out the system before the boat will sit. Yes, this would only be used between trips. We don't have enough fresh water on the boat to flush with it all the time. Besides, when were on a trip the head gets used enough that smells aren't a problem. Mineral spirits won't hurt 'em. Mineral OIL (baby oil) works just as well and costs less. But anything thin enough to be poured down the toilet is just gonna wash out in a few flushes...it's a never ending battle. Every toilet leaves the factory slathered with thick teflon grease that lasts at least a full season, sometimes two season. So if you only want to have to lube the toilet once a year, buy a tube of the stuff (SuperLube is what Raritan uses, and IMO the best quality...but any teflon grease from bike shops and swimming pool supply stores will do)...it'll cost you about $5 and one tube will last longer than you'll prob'ly keep the boat. Loosen the hex nut on the top of the pump so you have access to the inside of it...stick the nozzle of the tube in and give it healthy squirt. Pump a couple of times to spread it all over the inside of the pump cylinder...repeat if you want to...re-tighten the hex nut...you're done. The toilet will pump smoothly all season without any need for any more lubrication. Best time to do it: as part of spring recommissioning preventive maintenance. This is exactly the info I was looking for! Thanks!! Cindy -- The email address above is a spam trap. Don't expect a response. Reach me using firstname at lastname dot net |
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