"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ps.com...
90% of which are from one source, it should be noted.

BTW if you want to call yourself "Captain" why don't you



Look up the word Captain, Doug. You might also ask the Coast Guard
exactly what a captain is. Here's a hint. It does not have to involve a
license. I think plenty of people here know who we are and may even
know that you no longer sail and have a trawler, but I won't engage in
any nonsense here since this is a real group.
You're welcome to fire away....I won't fire back. Have fun.

Well, you're certainly not a licensed captain. I suppose you can call
yourself whatever you want, but the typical definition of Captain is someone
licensed by the USCG or other authority.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:43:55 -0500, Jeff wrote:

if you like
gensets and A/C's, the cat can lose any advantage.

Pretty much mandatory in the tropics in my opinion unless you REALLY
enjoy being hot.

Capt. Rob wrote:
I find it interesting that this ultimately pragmatic thread has not
touched on the actual sailing experience itself. I've sailed two cats,
a Gemini and PDQ 36. In both cases my wife and I were bored to tears.
The PDQ was fast off the wind and there was some novelty in that for a
few minutes, but it didn't last. The heeling and motion of a monohul is
part of the romance of sailing for many of us. It feels right, even if

I agree - the feel of a boat heeled over and the romance of
spilling your drinks can't be beat. My cat sails like
driving a bus most of the time.

But when we hit 15 knots there were a lot of big smiles
aboard. Biggest smile was the woman driving, who had
only ever been on a sailboat once before.

The turning point for me and my wife:

We were anchored at Isla Providencia, a small island in the
Carib. that belongs to Columbia. It's about 100 miles east
of the Nicaraugan coast. Long way from anywhere. We were
sitting out a norther on our monohull. The swell was
wrapping around the headland and was on the beam. The wind
was strong enough that we didn't want to bridle the boat to
face the swells as this would increase the windage. All the
monos in the anchorage were rolling their guts out. One
furthest out was rolling +/- 30 degrees. We wer feeling
seasick at anchor!

There was a single cat in the anchorage. The folks aboard
were having a picnic lunch in the cockpit. Their 2 year old
was having a swing under the davits on their home made
swing. THEIR boat just bobbed up and down and they smiled
as we rowed to shore to escape the rolling aboard...

Evan Gatehouse

Capt. JG wrote:

I guess most people prefer to be upside-down-but-floating compared to
upright-on-the-bottom of the Atlantic. The next question though, is what
are
chances of such events to happen? When I cross the Atlantic (or whatever
waters) I rather opt for a 1% chance to sink my monohull (and trust on my
liferaft) than a 20% chance of capsizing my cat. Now, both figures are
probably
far from accurate, so my question is, what are chances that such things
will
happen?

Regards,
Marc
www.marineyacht.com


I don't think I recall hearing about any cruising cats that have capsized.
Where are you getting 20% or even 5%?

Incidences of cruising cats are pretty infrequent. I only
know of the following;

- PDQ 32 capsizing while entering a cut in the Bahamas while
a "rage" was blowing. Pitchpoled in very shallow water in
the huge breakers

- a Gemini capsizing in Texas; sailed over due to too much sail

- a Fountaine Pajot 35 capsized in the Caribbean; sailed
over with a charter group aboard

- a Catana in the Med; capsized due to a sudden squall
hitting with the chute up at night.

- a Heavenly Twins 26 or 27 capsizing in Force 10+ north of
the British Isles during a rare summer severe storm.

I have also heard of the F-P Maldives 32 being pretty
susceptible to capsize but that's more innuendo that actual
facts and the Iriquois but I don't know if they were
capsized during racing or while cruising.

Most of the above are smaller, narrower beam cats by the way
of fairly old design; the exceptions being the FP 35 and the
Catana.

When the Wolfson Unit of Southhampton University did a study
of trying to capsize cruising cat models the only way they
could do it was a beam on breaking wave beam of the boat
(similar to a monohull by the way)

"MODEL TESTS TO STUDY CAPSIZE AND STABILITY OF SAILING
MULTIHULLS"
Deakin B.
The 15th Chesapeake Sailing Yacht Symposium, January 2001

Evan Gatehouse

http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/IJSCT/Discuss/deakin.pdf

is the link to the Wolfson study I mentioned earlier. Good
reading and not too technical...

Evan Gatehouse

In article .com,
"Capt. Rob" wrote:

I find it interesting that this ultimately pragmatic thread has not
touched on the actual sailing experience itself.

I've chartered a half dozen 45-48' cats, been on smaller ones, and of
course a bunch of monohulls. I can get either type to go well, so
that's not an issue.

The space of a cat is wonderful -- and horrible. From experience, if we
have space, we'll fill it up. We'll make a cat heavy pretty fast. There
goes any speed advantage.

Price is certainly a factor. We can cruise for a few years on the cost
difference for the same amount of space.

My major question, though is how long will cats be serviceable? Our
little Xan is 33 years old and seems destined to celebrate 50
comfortably. That seems not unusual for most well-maintained monohulls
I see.

I saw what happened to a Gemini that smacked a wall. It wasn't going
that fast, but both hulls shattered and the construction revealed
wasn't pretty. (Truth be told, our old Macgregor seemed more solidly
constructed.) Friend on an "older" (late 80's) cat is discovering some
interesting structural projects.

Cats are built relatively lightly, and that's a good selling point, but
will it hurt them in the long run? New Hunters and Macgregors certainly
are capable of what they're designed for, but I wouldn't trust older
ones for serious cruising.


--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Peter HK wrote:

There are occasional sea patterns that are uncomfortable on a multi, usually
with beam seas, but the magnitude of the event needs to be considered. Cats
reach max stability at about 5 degrees of heel (when a hull lifts). As this
never happens on cruising cats, all heel angles are less than 5 degrees.
Short sharp waves can occasionally exceed this a little due to the hulls
being in a trough and crest. Compare to a mono rolling downwind where heel
angles can be 30 degrees side to side.

Monohulls do not normally rock from side to side, nor do they heel over 30
degrees
unless you are racing. With the proper sail trim, they should not heel that
much.
You missed the point of the sails acting like a shock absorber in union with
the'
pendulum action of the keel.



Multis do have a different motion- shorter and sharper compared to slower
but much more amplitude on a mono.
Personally I find it quite comfortable. As stated in a previous post a glass
never spills, which is a significant observation on the severity of the
motion.

When a multi capsizes it floats- most are now equipped with hatches to enter
a secure part of the hull in a capsize.

And what if you are on deck at the time? And what do you do in this secure
section of the hull? Wait and hope for rescue because you won't be able to
get yourself out of trouble.

When a mono sinks however- dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

Any boat that fills with water is going to sink. The idea about mono hulls
is that
they will right themselves before the boat fills with water.



It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

I prefer the self righting. At least I have a chance to recover and continue

sailing, in that case. If it sinks, then the life raft is your backup.



Peter HK

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Peter HK wrote:

There are occasional sea patterns that are uncomfortable on a multi,
usually
with beam seas, but the magnitude of the event needs to be considered.
Cats
reach max stability at about 5 degrees of heel (when a hull lifts). As
this
never happens on cruising cats, all heel angles are less than 5 degrees.
Short sharp waves can occasionally exceed this a little due to the hulls
being in a trough and crest. Compare to a mono rolling downwind where
heel
angles can be 30 degrees side to side.

Monohulls do not normally rock from side to side, nor do they heel over
30
degrees
unless you are racing. With the proper sail trim, they should not heel
that
much.
You missed the point of the sails acting like a shock absorber in union
with
the'
pendulum action of the keel.

You're right, but they can in sudden gusts with a relatively inattentive
cruising crew.

Multis do have a different motion- shorter and sharper compared to slower
but much more amplitude on a mono.
Personally I find it quite comfortable. As stated in a previous post a
glass
never spills, which is a significant observation on the severity of the
motion.

When a multi capsizes it floats- most are now equipped with hatches to
enter
a secure part of the hull in a capsize.

And what if you are on deck at the time? And what do you do in this
secure
section of the hull? Wait and hope for rescue because you won't be
able to
get yourself out of trouble.

Well, the same argument can be made for a mono if you're on deck and she
heels dramatically or takes on water suddenly.

Why would you be unable to get yourself out of trouble if you're fairly
secure in a hull?

When a mono sinks however- dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

Any boat that fills with water is going to sink. The idea about mono
hulls
is that
they will right themselves before the boat fills with water.

Not completely true, as most modern cats will not sink. Of course, never is
an absolute, so I suppose it's possible though remotely so.

It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

I prefer the self righting. At least I have a chance to recover and
continue

sailing, in that case. If it sinks, then the life raft is your backup.

Many who sail cats don't carry a liferaft, because the cat or tri is the
liferaft.

Now I'm not claiming that a multi is the end all and be all of safety at
sea, but most of the time, the prime consideration is crew durability, not
boat durability. Crews get tired on a boat that's heeled all the time for
long distances. Tired crew make more mistakes.

Well, you're certainly not a licensed captain. I suppose you can call
yourself whatever you want, but the typical definition is licensed by the
USCG or other authority.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Capt. Rob" wrote:

I find it interesting that this ultimately pragmatic thread has not
touched on the actual sailing experience itself.

I've chartered a half dozen 45-48' cats, been on smaller ones, and of
course a bunch of monohulls. I can get either type to go well, so
that's not an issue.

Same here.

The space of a cat is wonderful -- and horrible. From experience, if we
have space, we'll fill it up. We'll make a cat heavy pretty fast. There
goes any speed advantage.

And, safety. One should not overload a multi.

Price is certainly a factor. We can cruise for a few years on the cost
difference for the same amount of space.

Yup... they are more expensive.

My major question, though is how long will cats be serviceable? Our
little Xan is 33 years old and seems destined to celebrate 50
comfortably. That seems not unusual for most well-maintained monohulls
I see.

I saw what happened to a Gemini that smacked a wall. It wasn't going
that fast, but both hulls shattered and the construction revealed
wasn't pretty. (Truth be told, our old Macgregor seemed more solidly
constructed.) Friend on an "older" (late 80's) cat is discovering some
interesting structural projects.

Cats are built relatively lightly, and that's a good selling point, but
will it hurt them in the long run? New Hunters and Macgregors certainly
are capable of what they're designed for, but I wouldn't trust older
ones for serious cruising.

Definitely interesting questions/points... no idea really, but there are a
lot of older multis out there that are still going.

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...

My major question, though is how long will cats be serviceable? Our
little Xan is 33 years old and seems destined to celebrate 50
comfortably. That seems not unusual for most well-maintained monohulls


To be frank, one needs to compare apples with apples. Many modern day
performance monos are very lightly built and not destined for longevity. The
same is true for higher performance multis.

There are many cruising monos that last an age and certainly, here in Oz,
many examples of cruising multis that are well built, will never win a race
because they are a bit heavier, but last very well.

My last cruising cat was built in 1983 and when I sold it at age 21 years
the survey found no issues with the structure of the boat. The gelcoat was a
bit faded but had not a single crack. Being vinylester/airex there was no
osmosis.
It surely had at least another 21 years.

She was a little slow by multi standards- 150 mile days were routine but 200
mile days would have needed a racing crew pushing hard. Nothing ever broke.

Everything is a compromise.

Peter HK