Right. BoatUS and the Ohio Deparment of Natural Resources are zealous
pro-pwc propogandists. The reports of pwc's being used in Katrina
rescue operations and marine life rescues and other law enforcement and
safety operations are made up, just like the so-called stories of moon
landings. Your "observations" obviously supercede any facts or reports
that suggest that your prejudices, preconceptions and stereotypes might
not be up to date or fully accurate.

The fact that four-strokes have replaced about 90% of 2-strokes in the
new pwc market over the last five years resulting in some of the very
cleanest-running, most fuel-efficient and very quietest power boats on
the water today, is something I just made up, with no facts behind it
to support it. Your "observations" tell you so and I don't blame you
for refusing to consider that there might be more to the issue than
you're aware of.

The fact that the vast overwhelming majority of pwc's sold are
three-seaters for use with their families is a lie. The idea that
mandatory training requirements have decreased accident, injury and
conflict statistics in all states that have instituted them is also
fiction, to be ignored by you because of the wisdom and infallibility
of your "observations."

The fact that enviromental impact analyses have resulted in proposed
pwc bans being rolled back and rejected is another fiction I made up.
(Or is due to the influence of an incredibly powerful pwc industry
lobby? Uh huh.) Your personal observations tell you all you need to
know about the noise level, environmental impact, and pollution level
of modern 4-stroke pwc's that have been increasingly the rule among new
units sold since 2002. You should continue to make insulting
pronouncements about thousands of your fellow boaters including myself,
my wife, and many of my friends, without bothering to acquire any
further information on the topic...based of course on your
observations.

Why can't you just admit that maybe your information is out of date and
that you don't know everything, and that it's very likely that a lot
of what you think you know could be very wrong? It's obvious that you
don't care to be more informed on the matter, and that's certainly your
right, but you should at least admit that your chosen ignorance and
stubbornly clung-to beliefs, inform your opinion on the matter, rather
than any actual curioisity, open-mindedness or knowledgeability on the
topic.

richforman

Dave wrote:
On 6 Apr 2006 09:18:38 -0700, said:

Why can't you just admit that maybe your information is out of date and
that you don't know everything, and that it's very likely that a lot
of what you think you know could be very wrong?

Rich, one doesn't learn how PWC operators behave from a propaganda sheet. He
learns it from being out a boat each weekend and observing them.

Seems like a weak argument unless you can dispute any of my facts or
sources. Just dismissing everything that doesn't support your
"observations" as automatically being simply "propoganda" isn't very
compelling.

Once again (and you just keep ignoring me) - specifically -

Is this article propoganda, or fiction? Is BoatUS an organization with
a pro-PWC bias?

http://www.shawnalladio.com/pwc/pwcD...pwc_detail=205

How about the "PWC operators" that your observations make you such an
expert on....do those featured in the following article fit your
preconceptions? (And it's from Surfer magazine, surfers not
traditionally being generally much of a radically pro-PWC-biased
contingency as far as I know.)

http://surfermag.com/features/online...atrina-intrvu/
(part one)
http://www.surfermag.com/features/on...sro-no-prttwo/
(part two)

You still don't conceded it's possible that your "observations" don't
really tell you the whole story or make you very knowledgeable about
the pwc world in general?

If you observed ME and all the people I ride with all the time, you'd
be confronted with the realization that your preconceptions and
prejudices are misinformed, outdated, based on a limited sample, and
simply don't tell anywhere near the story. You'd respect and
appreciate my behavior on the water, and it's not just mine, it's that
of all the people I talk to and ride with all the time, the same as you
would any courteous, experienced, responsible safe boater.


But you just keep insisting that you're an expert and fact or evidence
that challenges your firmly held views should just be dismissed.
Never reconsider your views and just pretty much ignore and dismiss
anything I have to say, simply because I own a pwc.

richforman

Rich, one doesn't learn how PWC operators behave from a propaganda sheet. He
learns it from being out a boat each weekend and observing them.


wrote:
Seems like a weak argument unless you can dispute any of my facts or
sources.

WHAT???

You are genuinely claiming that links on the internet should
trump real world observations?


.... Just dismissing everything that doesn't support your
"observations" as automatically being simply "propoganda" isn't very
compelling.


I don't think anybody has "dismissed everything," just
weighed your claims against their own real-world experience.


Once again (and you just keep ignoring me) - specifically -

Is this article propoganda, or fiction? Is BoatUS an organization with
a pro-PWC bias?


http://www.shawnalladio.com/pwc/pwcD...pwc_detail=205


As far as I see, this is an unabashedly pro-PWC feel-good
article... do you think the title "This Is Not Your Father's
Jetski" indicates serious journalism? And the quotes from a
Kawasaki rep?



If you observed ME and all the people I ride with all the time, you'd
be confronted with the realization that your preconceptions and
prejudices are misinformed, outdated, based on a limited sample, and
simply don't tell anywhere near the story.

So, I guess if we observed that you and your buddies don't
buzz anchored boats, jump wakes dangerously close to vessels
underway, play chicken with swimmers, harrass sailboats, etc
etc, then we'd just forget about every time we observed a
larger number of jetskiiers doing those exact things?

That sure makes a lot of sense.

Actually, I'm sure there are a number of PWCers who use
their boats decently and interact with other boaters just
fine. But there are a lot that don't; and frankly the image
of blasting around the waterway not giving a damn is part of
what sells PWCs in the first place.

DSK

Mys Terry wrote:
You are genuinely claiming that one poster's personal and highly
biased observations posted in usenet trump multiple references to well
known organizations?


WHAT!

You're claiming that simple observation of fact is "biased?"

I guess water doesn't really run downhill unless you can
google up a few references... preferably well-known
organizations, I'm sure....

DSK

So, I guess if we observed that you and your buddies don't
buzz anchored boats, jump wakes dangerously close to vessels
underway, play chicken with swimmers, harrass sailboats, etc
etc, then we'd just forget about every time we observed a
larger number of jetskiiers doing those exact things?

It would indicate that your prejudices and preconceptions about pwc'ers
were not accurate, and that there's a lot that you don't know and would
apparently surprise you to learn about pwc's and their owners.

Of course it's not incumbent on you to become more informed about them.



Actually, I'm sure there are a number of PWCers who use
their boats decently and interact with other boaters just
fine

Well there you go, we're getting somewhere, this is the first time
you've acknowledges this truth that I've been trying to point out -
that your blanket condemning and insulting of all pwc riders including
me, my wife, my children, and many of my friends (and your insulting us
is why I'm so passionate about this) is unfair and innacurate.

But there are a lot that don't;

True; same goes for all segments of power boating, this is another of
my main points, and the reason I favor mandatory training in safety
basics.

and frankly the image
of blasting around the waterway not giving a damn is part of
what sells PWCs in the first place.

Well there you go talking about things you know nothing about again.
Come on, you have to admit you really know nothing about why most of
the people who buy pwc's, buy them. You're just projecting your
prejudices and stereotypes into the heads of people you don't know much
about. You should check out the marketing materials, that is, the ads
in boating magazines for the last ten years or so, to see how they
market the machines....mostly as family fun craft, with pictures of
dads riding with their small children on board, obviously on vacation,
the kids sitting in or jumping off the back swim platforms to go
snorkeling, enjoying the sights of caribbean waters, or a couple riding
off into the horizon....just like pretty much any other recreational
pleasure boats in their ads.

Read the reviews of pwc's in mainstream, non-pwc-oriented boating
magazines like Boating. They talk about ride comfort, storage space,
watersports ability, design features....pretty much just like they
would with any other recreational power boat.

And I, unlike you, know first-hand what I'm talking about. I've bought
pwc's, I use them regularly, and talk to and ride with other people who
do, every weekend, eight months a year. You should be humble enough to
defer my word over your own guesses as to how they're sold, why they're
bought, and how they're used.
The fact is they're not only about the quiestest and cleanest-running
power boat you can buy, but the most affordable, easiest/cheapest to
store, trailer and maintain, most fuel-efficient, kids love
them...THESE, DSK, are a much bigger part of what sells them than "the
image of blasting around the waterway not giving a damn." Honestly
and I know what I'm talking about. I don't know why it's so difficult
for you to just admit that really, on this topic, you don't.

richforman



richforman

Sounds like you're twisting things around with a kind of word game
here. I don't know what your profession is but it seems to me that
"observed evidence" is only convincing with reference to the specific
event observed, and is not a (legal? if that's what you're getting at)
basis for jumping to generalized conclusions about what always or
usually happens.

And to simply dismiss out of hand any source whose information
contradicts your anecdotal and personal observations, is not a
compelling argument technique. It sounds like circular logic to me -
you won't accept any testimonial that counters your beliefs, because
you automatically assume the source is biased propoganda. Makes it
hard to convince you that there might be anything worth knowing that
you don't already know.

richforman

Well your source for information is obviously way out of date because
SeaDoo hasn't made the GTX RFI in a few years.

Here's Seadoo's marketing blurb for their current flagship model on the
CURRENT web site:
"Roughing it is relative on the GTX and GTX SC. Packed with two
powerful engine options, luxury to spare and smooth maneuverability. A
top-notch boat that takes riding to a new place. Like your favorite
camping spot. Or a little island hopping."

Here's their description of another model:

"If the journey is the reward, you may never reach your destination.
Thanks to the uncompromising luxury of the 2006 GTX Limited. With a 215
HP engine, and 18 features that make fully-loaded an understatement.
Perfect for carving up some serious glass at dusk. A weekend out of
town. Or a shopping spree in Venice."

Here's how they want to sell you on their current entry level model:

"We figure the best way to get you on the water is to design a PWC with
technology, ergonomics and convenience you feel great about. At a price
you still feel good about. So we totally redesigned our GTI recreation
models. And it goes well beyond the brand new, 3-Star Certified 130 HP
four-stroke Rotax engine. With 20 more horses than its closest rival
for an extra jolt of top speed, acceleration and handling that could
only come from a Sea-Doo watercraft. And a quiet efficiency that makes
competitive models seem downright obnoxious.

We went further. We rebuilt the entire hull. It's flatter and wider,
for more stability. It's easier to board, thanks to a larger rear
platform and reboarding ladder. In the highly unlikely event of a tip,
it's easier than ever to pop it back up. And since where the water
takes you sometimes depends on what you can take with you, there's the
exclusive Sea-Doo removable waterproof 10.6-gallon storage bin. The
Sea-Doo Learning Key is preprogrammed to limit RPMs, giving novices
more control and confidence.

Put simply, the design, technology, comfort and convenience packed into
these watercraft are unrivaled by anything in their class. And you'll
know it the minute you hop on an all-new GTI and take it for a spin.
Kind of makes you want to redefine a little thing called value, doesn't
it?"

The web site blurb for Yamaha's flagship model on their web site reads:
"The performance to get your family excited, the comfort to keep you
relaxed." They want us to know this about the boat: "With its all-new
ergonomically designed dash, the FX Cruiser High Output has an
automotive-like feel in the way it keeps riders comfortable and
invigorated at the same time. This WaveRunner offers a unique, Cruiser
style of riding - a contoured Cruiser seat, adjustable raised
handlebars and foot chocks create a three-point contact system that
gives the driver support while reducing tension on the arms and legs.
And because the passenger also has a supportive seat and handholds, the
driver is never crowded. Power, performance and comfort - all rolled
into one very full-featured flagship."

For their VX110 Deluxe model, the headline blurb reads "Family weekends
are even more valuable when they're affordable," there's a picture of a
grinning couple riding one of the boats. Let's look at the marketing
description for that watercraft on Yamaha's web site. Hmmm: "The VX110
Deluxe was designed to deliver fun and performance, while pairing
Yamaha's unparalleled reliability with a stylish design. The VX110
Deluxe is longer than comparable models, providing a rider-forward
design that not only accommodates a roomier, more comfortable seat, it
allows for a larger rear platform. This makes reboarding easy and
offers a great place to hang out and relax with the family." Wow,
really aggressive and testosterone-fueled marketing slant.

For their FX HO for '06 (I've got an '05, most versative and
comfortable pwc I've ever owned, I use it primarily for ambitious
long-distance cruises and overnight trips, and some of idle-speed
sightseeing explorations of scenic shallow creeks): "The FX High Output
doesn't just look like a sports car, it performs like one. Underneath
its new, sleek aerodynamic surface lies the most powerful four-stroke
engine in our arsenal - a High Output Yamaha Marine engine. Add to
that an ultralight high-strength hull, a high-pressure pump,
extraordinary handling and an exceptional power-to-weight ratio, and
you've got an ultimate performance machine. So if you're looking
for a high-performance WaveRunner that's quick, nimble and great for
offshore riding, prepare yourself for the FX High Output." Nothing
about attitude or leaving anybody in any wake. Wonder why I'm not
getting the same results you got?

Even their race model, the GP1300R, just goes this far: "Lots of
watercraft that offer performance, but the GP1300R is the WaveRunner
that blows right by them. With a technologically advanced,
fuel-injected, 170-horsepower Yamaha Marine engine, the GP1300R offers
enough power and control to make every ride exhilarating. Plus, with
features like Quick Shift Trim System and adjustable sponsons, you can
customize the handling to suit your individual preferences. If you want
the WaveRunner with the best performance and highest top speed, the
GP1300R is waiting." I don't know if powerful performance or
exhiliration upset you...still a far cry from the lines you pulled out
of I don't know where. (I know that advertising blurbs in recent
magazines I"ve seen say stuff like this, one has a dad riding two kids
through what looks lke canyons in Lake Powell or somewhere similar, the
blurb mentions the fact that it's a vacation with screaming happy kids
but no oversized rodents selling overpriced souvenirs...nothing like
the ones you cite. Did you make them up? I know you didn't, you just
used old, out of date ones to support your outdated perceptions.)

Let me check Kawasaki's web site.

Stx-15f, their current flagship mode:
With its fuel-injected, four-stroke engine and racing-inspired hull,
aggressive turning and high-speed stability are key performance
attributes of the STX-15F. It's not only loaded with features, but
the STX-15F has earned a coveted Three-Star Ultra-Low Emissions rating
from the California Air Resources Board (CARB). That's what Kawasaki
calls leading-edge technology. Dressed in new colors for 2006, it is
available in Jet White / Kawasaki Lime Green, and Firecracker Red /
Galaxy Silver. Available late 2005.

stx-12f:
"The STX-12F boasts a sporty design with its stylish deck and angular
seat, offering a muscular look befitting a high-performance watercraft.
The handlebars are located in a cab-forward position to provide plenty
of room for the rider. Plus, abundant floor space provides room for the
rider's feet. There are even footrests to help stabilize a
rear-facing spotter when pulling a skier, wake boarder or tuber. The
model that started Kawasaki's four-stroke watercraft revolution, also
earned CARB's Three-Star Ultra-Low Emissions rating, a full five
years prior to the mandated deadline. Dressed in new colors for 2006,
it is available in Jet white / Candy Thunder Blue. Available late
2005."

Once again, I'm looking for the words "attitude," "wake," "power trip"
(although I don't really think there's anything that wrong with
suggesting that the boats are fast and powerful; the emphasis in most
cases seems to be, JUST LIKE I SAID, on features, comfort, family
friendliness, reliability, clean-running engines, etc.

Here's how Kawasaki describes their stand=up model:
For riders who like to stand up in the breeze and lean into turns while
accelerating over the water, the 800 SX-R is the ultimate stand-up Jet
Ski watercraft. A descendant of the original 400cc model, this
watercraft thrills riders with a 781cc two-stroke engine and the most
power available in a production Kawasaki stand-up. Light and
quick-handling, it's the favorite among hard-core watercraft
enthusiasts and racers everywhere. Dressed in new colors for 2006, it
is available in Jet White / Kawasaki Lime Green, and Jet White / Pearl
Citrus Yellow. Available late 2005.

Let the good times roll.™

Maybe it supports your thesis because they mention that the watercraft
gives a thrilling and exciting ride? Still doesn't really sound too
aggressive or like it's about blasting around without caring about
anybody, in fact, this model is marketed towards athletic, dedicated
stand-up riders (the few, the proud, not me!), who are probably the
most responsible and knowledgeable pwc riders of all, in the sense
that, like with sailboats, it takes a lot of practice and skills just
to make one go in the first place.

Here's what Honda brags about with their flagship mode, the F-12X
GPScape: "its features continue to impress; 1235cc turbocharged
four-stroke engine, off-throttle steering system, selectable speed
limiter and electronic keyless ignition." Good reasons to give anybody
you see driving one the finger or assume the worst of them.

For their fastest and presumably most aggressively-oriented model, the
turbo-powered smaller two-seather the R-12X this is what they have to
say: "The sleek, specially-designed hull cuts through the water like a
scalpel. The two work seamlessly together to provide the perfect blend
of agility and stability. And since the R-12X is the world's only turbo
four-stroke two-seater, you can share the fun." Sounds like they're
really trying to appeal to on-water terrorists to me, agility and
stability, share the fun.

Really it still sounds to me like you're desperately trying to support
and refuse to change all of your outdated preconceptions. You've
cherry-picked a few brief quotes from some obviously outdated source,
I've quoted almost the entire current marketing materials from the
current web-site of ALL the pwc manufacturers in the market, and it
sounds like there just MIGHT be a little truth to what I said in the
first place, that they're marketing to families, to boaters, and
emphasizing comfort, features, technology, family use, rather than
sheer brute power and aggressive irresponsible riding.

But you know a lot more about this subject than I do.

Based on your observations.

richforman

Dave wrote:
On 6 Apr 2006 13:28:02 -0700, said:

Nothing
about attitude or leaving anybody in any wake. Wonder why I'm not
getting the same results you got?

Dunno. I just grabbed parts of the result of a very quick Google search that
led me to:

http://www.hanksmarine.com/SeaDoo.htm


Hmmm, guess we're both stumped, maybe it's because you just grabbed the
first result you saw from your search without bothering to find out if
the information was anywhere near current, that is, had anything to do
with what we were talking about (the current, modern state of the
industry and the market).

Okay. Fair enough. Did the pretty exhaustive representative sampling
from the current marketing materials (did you read them?), or any of
the other information I've provided, make you think that maybe your
statements or preconceptions could be a little out of date or
inaccurate? About the way pwc's are marketed, why they're bought, who
buys them, or how they're used these days? ...and about the machines
themselves?

Or are you still satisfied that pwc's are pretty much about hooligans,
belching smelly smoke and doing doing circles around ramps pretty much
just to annoy people?

richforman

Maybe (pure poetry I'm sure), but "well spoke" is not very, uh, well
spoke.

richforman

In article .com,
wrote:

Well your source for information is obviously way out of date because
SeaDoo hasn't made the GTX RFI in a few years.

Here's Seadoo's marketing blurb for their current flagship model on the
CURRENT web site:
"Roughing it is relative on the GTX and GTX SC. Packed with two
powerful engine options, luxury to spare and smooth maneuverability. A
top-notch boat that takes riding to a new place. Like your favorite
camping spot. Or a little island hopping."

Here's their description of another model:

"If the journey is the reward, you may never reach your destination.
Thanks to the uncompromising luxury of the 2006 GTX Limited. With a 215
HP engine,

215 f*****g HORSEPOWER? For *ONE* or *TWO* people on a goddam toy? My
6.5 tonne workboat only has 2 225 HP turbo diesel engines driving
Hamilton jets, and it'll do in excess of 40 knots unladen!

Thanks for that, you've confirmed my opinion. Those damn things should
be banned from all public waterways. Far too much HP for any rational
purpose.

PDW