Not all PWCers are "all for it"

wrote:
Well, the pwc'ing COMMUNITY at large is all for it

Of course. The jerk-ski drivers give you all a bad name...
as well as putting you just as much (perhaps more) at risk
of injury than the rest of us who are unlucky enough to be
on the water near them.



... PWC rights advocacy groups and IMO all of us more responsible,
informed, thinking riders, have advocated and supported, mandatory
education and certification, for ALL boaters as long as I've been
involved, and it seems like an excellent idea to me.


Why? Because you are saddled with a peer group that includes
reckless noisy fools?

I have been sailing for 40 years, have never injured myself
or anybody else with any boat, in fact I have rescued people
numerous times & received official commendations twice for
rescues.

Do I need a "license" to sail a boat, in your opinion?

Bear in mind a sailboat that goes 5 knots presents none of
the same risks... in fact one of the biggest risks is
getting hit my some motor boater. Will taking a course &
getting a license reduce this risk?






.... there are still a lot of
jetski drivers who operate their boats dangerously &
offensively.


Yes, and operators of other size and shape power boats too. That is
why it seems look a great idea to try to guarantee that anyone driving
one has at least been instructed in the basics.


I disagree. A better strategy would be for the state to
ENFORCE already existing laws regarding liability & safe
action. For a skipper who damages his own property or
injures himself, tough luck. For one who injures somebody
else... perhaps you or perhaps me... there are already laws
by which he can be made to pay for damage & injury, as well
as suffer civil penalties. This should be pursued but very
rarely is... not only pursued but given enough publicity
that anyone in the boating community will be aware of it.



The reason why PWC's were the first to be regulated & to
have a license required was due to the large number of
incidents wherein PWC drivers injured others. Injuring
yourself is not the state's business IMHO.



I don't follow your thinking at all. Power boaters with bigger boats
than pwc's can certainly do lots of damage to others

Not with the frequency that PWC drivers seem to.




I don't really see what the big burden is. The class is 8 hours and
free, here in New York State anyway.


It is a burden on my time that I do not have now, and it is
a burden to the taxpayers... do you genuinely believe it is
free?

And if the state thinks it's a great idea to force people to
take an 8 hour class now, and not charge them, how long will
it be before some busybody decides that boat statistics
haven't improved enough, and increases the time required? Or
before the state decides that boaters can afford to help
relieve more of the tax burden on other citizens?



I don't know that the "it's a free country" platitude dissuades me from
thinking that this is a good idea,

I think it's a great idea for jetskis and vroom-vroom boats.
I don't want to be run down by some drunk bonehead going at
a speed that would be illegal on any interstate highway.



.... I guess
you're not in favor of automobile licensing either? After all, I
suppose, it's anyone's free choice to get onto a crowded road they know
is populated by tons of dangerous uneucated maniacs.....every man for
himself, why would the government have any interest in stepping on my
freedom by insisting that I learn to drive and get tested before I get
behind the wheel? I guess I must be some kind of communist.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter.

What you're suggesting is that *I* ought to be force to take
a class so that *you* can operate a vessel that is a hazard
to me.

This is more like insisting that bicyclists have to get
licenses because car drivers do... or pedestrians.





Sounds to me like some people just think they're too good to take the
course

Exactly.

I never needed it before and I don't need it now... and I
know thousands of other recreational sailors who don't either.

When was the last time anybody was injured by being run into
by an aggressive sailboat driver?

DSK

"Dave" wrote

Well spoke. Roger's totally full of **** on this one.

Your opinion. People have, and have, worse.

Actually, I was trying to find out whether he has the perspective of
actually having learned to fly a plane for some reasons valid to the
discussion.

Flying is surprisingly easy. Walking the length of a foot wide board
is quite easy. Put the board between two tall buildings and it
suddenly becomes something different. Then add a couple other tasks
to do as you walk across.

Most aviation accidents are ultimately pilot error but the things that
often kill pilots are not things that you can train for. There is a
saying that applies to this conversation, "You can't teach judgement."
Over and over in aviation accident accounts you see experienced and
proficient pilots killing themselves doing bone head things that they
had probably sagely counseled younger pilots not to do many times.
I'm sure the same think happens on the water although aviation
licensing keeps most (but far from all) of the total yahoo's out of
the air.

The one thing that does make me a bit sympathetic to basic training
requirements for boating is the right of way rules. It would be nice
if everyone out there knew them and I wouldn't have had my one boating
accident (hole on the port side).

--

Roger Long

And even more importantly, have the knowledge and/or common sense to make
decisions when things get "different".
MMC

I don't want your 11-year-old driving around the harbor in a CC with twin
250s, no matter how stupid you are to let him do it. His little CGAux
safe boating course didn't tell him how to drive the boat, how to
navigate, how to use the power to dock it.

On 3 Apr 2006 10:50:55 -0700, wrote:

all of us more responsible,
informed, thinking riders

Both of them, where ever they may be.

Much as I dislike PeeWCs and most of the people who ride them, I am
very, very reluctant to get the government involved in another aspect
of our sport.

Once the camel gets its nose into the tent it is very difficult to get
it out.

On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:29:01 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote:

PSSSSSSS ... where do you think the money for the license is going to go?
For boating safety?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,,, right in some corrupt pocket.

What are you thinking? Are you entirely crazy?

You are right on the money with that one Tom.

On 3 Apr 2006 14:22:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

But the number of boaters in miniscule in comparison. So instead of
licensing everybody, the State should keep a record of the small number of
boaters whose boating privileges have been revoked. The CG and the water
cops could quickly verify that info by radio when they board a vessel for
violations.

Where does it say that government has the authority to revoke your
right to boating ?

By advocating a licensing program you would creat that authority. Be
careful what you ask for.

Wayne.B wrote:
On 3 Apr 2006 14:22:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

But the number of boaters in miniscule in comparison. So instead of
licensing everybody, the State should keep a record of the small number of
boaters whose boating privileges have been revoked. The CG and the water
cops could quickly verify that info by radio when they board a vessel for
violations.

Where does it say that government has the authority to revoke your
right to boating ?


I don't get this overheated knee-jerk right-wing reaction to this issue
based simply on stating the fact that the government would be involved.
Hey it's not like they are going to "revoke your right to boating"
just because they don't like the way you like. Anybody willing to put
in the time to learn the basics required for safety of themselves and
everyone else out there, and able to demonstrate that they were paying
at least minimal attention, is in. It sounds almost like you don't
want any government at all, or not one with the right to regulate
anything. Does it make me some kind of left-wing loony to think it's a
good idea to try to verify that people have had some training in how to
read navaids, f'rinstance, before they hit the water?

By advocating a licensing program you would creat that authority. Be
careful what you ask for.

Seems to me it's very analogous to licensing automobile use.

richforman

On 3 Apr 2006 14:35:01 -0500, Dave wrote:

Once the camel gets its nose into the tent it is very difficult to get
it out.

Right idea, but wrong implementation, Wayne. The saying is that once the
camel gets its nose under the tent it's hard to keep the rest of him from
following.

Thank you for clarifying that important detail... :-)

Well, lots of people who've been boating already are "too good for the
course" in that sense. But obviously you, like me, didn't feel so far
above it as to refuse to comply, but rather grinned and bore it, sat
down for the little eight-hour course, and MAYBE just maybe still
learned a little something from someone (the Coast Guard Auxiliary guys
who give the courses seem outstanding to me, and certainly give the
impression that they feel THEY THEMSELVES can always learn something
new.)

When I (a lowly pwc'er who's been a safe, responsible, educated
operator for, well, at least most of my nine years riding) took the
safety course a couple years back, I knew most of the material in it,
but even if I knew all of it, I would have had no objection to
participating, sacrificing 8 hours of my time, to support what is so
clearly to me, an excellent idea in terms of making the water safer for
ALL of us out there.

richforman

You seem to be saying that the law should be administered on a
case-by-case
wherein we decide in the case of every individual boater whether or not
they
have the pre-existing skills and experience to just get out of having
the take the class.

Seems ridiculous to me and I just don't see what the big deal is. You
say the 8-hour
course is "a burden on my time that I do not have now," but then
describe yourself
(stating the obvious) as a recreational sailor, so this would be the
equivalent of one good
day on the water you might have to give up. I still don't think the
burden is that onerous.

Maybe you're just saying that there should be a distinction made
between sailors and
power-boaters. I don't know that I disagree vehemently with that, I
think the licensing is
an excellent idea for pwc'ers and all other power-boaters, and the
proof is in the pudding in
the accident statistics states where these laws have already been
booked. Lives have been
saved, the water is safer overall in those places, I think it's well
worth it. But in the spirit of taking one for the team, I still don't
think it's terrible for the same rule to be in effect for ALL boaters,
but maybe I
would agree that blow-boats are in a different category; I don't think
certification should be required
for, say, kayakers.

richforman

richforman