There was a bit of a too-do here recently about bowlines in jib sheets
coming undone. I think it was roughly 50-50 between those who had
experienced it and those who were sure that anyone it had happened to
was a complete lubber who couldn't tie their shoe laces without their
mother's help. Maybe it was 60-40, anyway....

In my continuing obsession with the nearly one hundred bucks worth of
Sta-Set X in my basement, I tried tying some bowlines in it. Maybe
I'm getting weak in my old age but no amount of finishing and
tensioning would produce a knot that I couldn't loosen with some
shaking. I assure you, I know how to tie a bowline. I was tying them
before most of you were born. This rope is pretty springy. I
wouldn't trust a jib sheet bowline in this stuff without a back up
seizing on the bitter end until it had been used for a few sails in a
good wind.

--

Roger Long

wrote

Never had any trouble with the bowlines coming out, and I think you
will find you don't in
practice either.

I doubt you would with the well disciplined sail handling of a racer.
A few tacks to set the knots may be enough for even the flogging of a
botched tack. I wouldn't want to tie one of these on and then go
right out and let it flog though.

Thanks for the insight on the gloves. That's exactly the information
I was looking for in my other post.

OTOH, if half the stretch (1.5% vs. 3% at 15% load) would save having
to uncleat and do a half crank after full load comes on the sheet
after each tack, there could be less wear and tear on the hands in the
close in daysailing we do a lot of. That difference works out to just
about the amount of sheet I often find myself sweating in shortly
after each tack.

Then again, I can't think back to figure out if I could just make that
up by cranking until the sail curls around the spreader end a little
harder. Probably I can and use softer sheets without the recranking.

You can tell my previous sailing was about 15 years ago and a lot of
that was in larger and more traditional boats.

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
....
OTOH, if half the stretch (1.5% vs. 3% at 15% load) would save having
to uncleat and do a half crank after full load comes on the sheet
after each tack, there could be less wear and tear on the hands in the
close in daysailing we do a lot of. That difference works out to just
about the amount of sheet I often find myself sweating in shortly
after each tack.
....

I think you're thinking too much! It's actually good form to let
the boat come up to speed before taking in that last bit of sheet.
It's nice to have a self tailing winch for the tweaking. As a datum, on
my 42 foot catamaran I use double braid dacron for my jib sheets and
don't find the strech to be an issue even though we're doing ocean
voyaging and putting huge loads on them. I like having a bit of give
in them and I don't wear gloves. I use spectra sheets and guys on my
mast-head ace because I don't want any give in the guys and want light
sheets. I use bowlines on the jib and spin sheets and a spikable
shackle on the guys.

But, I don't think that you will have any problems with ssx for jib
sheets and bowlines should work okay in the stuff.

Good luck, GO SAILING!

-- Tom.

wrote

I think you're thinking too much!

You can say that again. The boat is out of the water, my kid is sick
so I can't go work on it, and it's raining.


It's actually good form to let the boat come up to speed before
taking in that last bit of sheet.

Agreed. But, you're thinking like a racer and I'm thinking like the
one armed paper hanger singlehanding around in narrow busy waters. I
get help a lot of the time but often end up short tacking home up a
narrow channel while the tired kids read down below. I lose more
speed trying to crank and steer at the same time than I would bearing
off a bit with the jib too tight, but I need the boat to point.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
wrote


Agreed. But, you're thinking like a racer and I'm thinking like
the one armed paper hanger singlehanding around in narrow busy
waters. I get help a lot of the time but often end up short
tacking home up a narrow channel while the tired kids read down
below. I lose more speed trying to crank and steer at the same
time than I would bearing off a bit with the jib too tight, but
I need the boat to point.

Hmmmm. Time to start the engine.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas

"News f2s" wrote

Hmmmm. Time to start the engine.

Why? It's very satisfying to do and excellent exercise. That's why I
want to end up with exactly the right jib sheets.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"News f2s" wrote

Hmmmm. Time to start the engine.

Why? It's very satisfying to do and excellent exercise. That's
why I want to end up with exactly the right jib sheets.

Bit like doing an inverted spin. And needing exactly the right
instruments and a tail end parachute before trying it :-)

Don't worry, I'm just getting old and doing things the easier way
nowadays. Good to see you're still full of **** and vinegar. Or is
it testosterone? I keep forgetti . . . . where was I?

Ah, yes. "There's old pilots, and there's bold pilots, but there
ain't many old, bold pilots". Quite a lot of old, bold sailors out
there though. Nahhh - wrong thread, sorry!
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 11:24:27 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Hmmmm. Time to start the engine.

Why? It's very satisfying to do and excellent exercise. That's why I
want to end up with exactly the right jib sheets.

Single handing a 30 something in close quarters is a nice bit of
seamanship when you get it right but I'm not sure it passes the
"prudent man" test.

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:14:02 GMT, in message

"Roger Long" wrote:

OTOH, if half the stretch (1.5% vs. 3% at 15% load) would save having
to uncleat and do a half crank after full load comes on the sheet
after each tack, there could be less wear and tear on the hands in the
close in daysailing we do a lot of. That difference works out to just
about the amount of sheet I often find myself sweating in shortly
after each tack.

Keep in mind that some of that stretch under load is in your sail and
in your forestay sag, not to mention the line setting up on the winch.
There may not be a lot of improvement by going to low stretch lines if
you are still flying Dacron sails. On my 35 with a 135 genoa the
length of the sheet to the winch close hauled is less than 8 feet.
1.5% of eight feet is about an inch and a half. If the problem is
bigger than an inch and a half, then you may have to look elsewhere
for a solution.

As an alternative, consider sailing low and loose while cruising, as
much as that goes against the grain. You'll make up in speed a lot of
what you lose in point, and you will probably not notice the VMG
difference in any practical way. I find it a lot more relaxing to sail
a few degrees lower while cruising.

Ryk

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

"Wayne.B" wrote

Single handing a 30 something in close quarters is a nice bit of
seamanship when you
get it right but I'm not sure it passes the "prudent man" test.

I think that's an amazingly broad application of the concept of
prudence. It's kind of hard ultimately to argue that anything with
un-necessary risks like boating is prudent at all. After all, there
are 500 channels on TV now.

The individual balance of skill and challenge and current conditions
is much more significant than such a blanket judgement.

That said, I'll admit to probably having to compensate a bit for some
genetic deficiencies in the prudence genes. When I was an instructor
and member at the Boston Harbor Sailing Club, I used to do things like
pick up a girl who had never been in a boat before and go out on a
busy Sunday afternoon and set a spinnaker. Jibing a chute in those
conditions with someone who just knows how to "hold this" is a real
character builder. BTW I'm sure BHSC is a much tighter ship now but
this was very early days.

I'm not a risk taker in any other aspects of my life and was a very
conservative pilot doing the same thing, balancing my abilities
against the challenges. In 44 years of sailing I have only once
returned to the dock with a boat that needed repair due to decisions
or actions of my command. That was one of the BHSC Solings with a big
hole in the port side and my first, only, and current wife sitting
there asking if this kind of thing happens often. It was only about
three hours after I met her.

Boston Harbor used to (and probably still is) be full of hot shots who
like to port tack five feet from your transom. The stand on vessel
has an equal duty to maintain a steady and predictable course and this
was the one time my judgement about the conflicting duty to avoid a
collision despite right of way came up short. By the time I realized
that he wasn't going to do the hot shot transom pass, it was too late
to take any action. I did learn something though, if you don't see
the helmsman's sunglasses bobbing up and down under the Genoa, assume
they don't see you.

The OG (other guy) later claimed that he had the right of way since he
was proceeding in a marked channel and I was crossing it. Since the
channel was a big ship channel of about 50 foot depth surrounded by
20 - 30 foot deep water, the insurance company laughed at him.

I'm pretty careful and cautious actually and I've mellowed a bit with
age. I did sail up the Royal River for the first time on a dark windy
night and a falling tide alone without an engine and dock under sail
last fall but it was the prudent thing to do at the time. You can
read why he

http://www.points-east.com/

in the June issue of "Points East".

Little things are important. Flaking each lazy sheet down with one
hand while you steer with the other even though it's only 100 yard
tacks up the Peaks Island channel is the kind of thing that is more
relevant to the prudence question in my mind than whether you turn on
the engine.

--

Roger Long