Shen44 wrote:
From: "Armond Perretta"
Shen44 wrote:

Again .... never approach closer than two miles at sea, and if you
miss the ship and it's close aboard or within that distance,
figure it's up to you to avoid .... worry about some rule later.

Always a sound approach, but consider this. I have a 4 to 4.5 knot
sailboat. Offshore the commercial traffic I encounter (neglecting
for the moment commercial fishermen) typically maintains 16 to 24
knots. Even should I pick up a target at 8 miles on radar (or
otherwise), there is in a practical sense very little I can do to
_insure_ a CPA of 2 miles or better. I am speaking only from the
perspective of quite a bit of offshore cruising in a small sailing
boat, which is not to say I don't realize that "big boat always
wins."

Oh, fiddle faddle.

Which part is "fiddle" and which part is "faddle"?

When push comes, etc., the little boat gets out of the way or else. It
matters very little whether a ship missed you by 100 meters or 100 miles,
although I do in fact have a preference.

Nonetheless, what you suggest is not always (and in fact not even in the
majority of cases) possible. In addition one will _always_ have a difficult
time explaining maneuvering that is not allowed in the COLREGS should it
come to that (no matter what the General Prudential Rule states).

Placing the entire onus on the small boat is just as much an error as
placing the entire onus on the big boat.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

Shen44 wrote:
From: Rosalie B.

There are some boats, particularly off the FL coast which do not
have a heading that is stable. They are well lit so we can see
them ... but they don't maintain any kind of heading ... I think they are
gambling ships out just beyond the
requisite mile limit and aren't going anywhere particular ...

I have encountered these vessels and agree that they are gaming ships.

The one advantage to these types of ships, is they are normally
well lit ....

This advantage incurs to whom? If these gaming ships are maneuvering in a
manner that endangers other vessels, then they should have to account for
this course of action. Plain and simple.

The 2mi, is a number to strive for .... it's NOT written in stone.

No joke? Here I though you'd discovered a long lost section of the COLREGs.

There was a case here in the bay where a cruising boat ... ran between a
tug and the tow and his boat sank within a couple of minutes.

A tug and tow, is normally an easy radar spot ...
so poor radar interpretation on his part..... and never leave the radar,
till you KNOW what you are seeing and what it's doing.

I just _love_ these rules. Have you ever _really_ single-handed a small
yacht offshore? I asked this earlier without success.

It's a clear cut problem with BOTH vessels keeping a proper
lookout, but not clear-cut as how you should respond for varying
conditions .... I'm saying try to stay at least 2 mi. clear. Well,
we all know that's not always possible ....it's a goal and one
which can be attained, frequently, only by very early, substantial
action.

You are preaching to the choir to a certain extent, while at the same time
suggesting that one should routinely disregard the COLREGs. It's not that I
disagree that collision avoidance is a good thing. It's more that one must
take into account the practicalities of each type of vessel, insist that all
vessels operate in accordance with the strictest interpretation of the
Rules, and then let experience and common sense take it from there. There
is no "little boat get out of the way first" rule that I am aware of,
although it _is_ indeed good advice in many cases.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

In article , "Armond Perretta"
writes:

It's not that I
disagree that collision avoidance is a good thing. It's more that one must
take into account the practicalities of each type of vessel, insist that all
vessels operate in accordance with the strictest interpretation of the
Rules, and then let experience and common sense take it from there.

After speed reading this for the past two weeks, I forgot, what was the reason
they could not leave the radar on at night? All this to avoid running a
generator or engine an extra few minutes a day?!

Ted Edwards
Chatham Bound

x-no-archive:yes (Shen44) wrote:

Subject: Vessel detectors - radar visibility of your own vessel
From: Rosalie B.

There are some boats, particularly off the FL coast which do not have
a heading that is stable. They are well lit so we can see them
(better than the little fishing boats which may be anchored at random
with no lights at all), but they don't maintain any kind of heading.
We used to think they got their kicks by heading for any small boat
they saw.

Actually I think they are gambling ships out just beyond the requisite
mile limit and aren't going anywhere particular. Bob's method of
dealing is to head for them at which point they seem to veer off.
We'd never catch them so that's probably safe.

The one advantage to these types of ships, is they are normally well lit.
Problem is in seeing their running lights and narrowing down their heading at
night (and except for dead ahead, I wouldn't give you much chance of being
visually seen by them).
Hard to give good advice on these .... fraid you will have to take each case as
it comes, but still figure you are your own best solution.


How long does it take a large ship going at the rate of speed that
they normally go at to get from a blip on the horizon to the observer?
(8 miles? 12 miles?) If the ship is going 24 knots 8 nm would take
20 minutes. The small boat going 6 knots will take an hour and 20
minutes to do the same distance if I'm correct (and math isn't really
my thing) and will be able to separate from the larger ship's course
(if accurately determined) by two miles in that length of time..

You'd think that would be enough time to get out of the way, but that
assumes you can accurately tell at that distance what their course is,
that you are correct in the action that you take, that they maintain
the course and also that you see them 8 nm away by whatever means. If
you don't see them until they are 4 nm away, they will be at your boat
in 10 minutes, and in that length of time you can only get a mile.

The 2mi, is a number to strive for .... it's NOT written in stone.
Also, once again .... how many ships that you meet are heading directly at you?
That is only ONE case.
In many, if not most cases, they will be heading in a direction that crosses
your path, and here, it's important to figure out their "relative motion".
BTW, if you don't see a ship until it's 4 mi from you, on a relatively clear
day, you're not keeping a very good watch.
Normally, from the moment you spot the ship, it should take no more than one to
two minutes to get a good feel for the ship's basic heading and whether the
bearing is steady, opening, or closing .... at which point, your work begins.
Naturally,if you've got radar, this is easier, but if not, you need to do some
"eyeball" calculations, and these need to be watched closely to see if you are
getting the results you wish (probably means a greater course change than if
you had radar)

I was driving the boat down along the coast from Ft. Pierce to Miami
at night - trying to keep out of the Gulf Stream and also out of the
zone where the Navy was doing underwater tests (i.e. staying in less
than 100 feet of water) while sailing which meant some tacking. I
could see some ships between me and the shore only because they were
dark shapes against the lights.

And one big cargo ship was coming north. I saw the red, white and
green lights. I moved out from shore a bit, but didn't want to go too
far out because of the Navy stuff. Then I saw just the white and
green, so I figured they were going in the inlet. Then they shut off
the green light and appeared to stop. A little bit later they turned
on the deck lights. I guess they anchored or picked up a mooring.

I've also been at the wheel following a big ship into an inlet, when
the ship stopped and started to back up (in daylight - I don't know
what I would have done at night).

There was a case here in the bay where a cruising boat running up the
western shore at night saw a ship on his radar and saw something else
that he couldn't ID, and apparently went down into the cabin to look
at a chart or get a cup of coffee or something, and he ran between a
tug and the tow and his boat sank within a couple of minutes.

Two errors here (well a bunch, actually).
A tug and tow, is normally an easy radar spot (kinda like a triangle small
target leading a larger one, close together, maintaining a same distance
separation) so poor radar interpretation on his part..... and never leave the
radar, till you KNOW what you are seeing and what it's doing.

I agree with this, but this tug was towing on a long line and I gather
he made no connection between the two blips. I've also seen tugs
towing stuff like pipes so the tow doesn't have much of a radar or
sight profile at all.

In any case, they lost their boat and everything they owned and were
lucky to escape with their lives, although the Calvert Co Volunteer
Fire Department picked them up out of their dinghy within 15 minutes.


So it isn't as clear-cut a problem as wanting each ship to keep proper
lookout IMHO

It's a clear cut problem with BOTH vessels keeping a proper lookout, but not
clearcut as how you should respond for varying conditions .... I'm saying try
to stay at least 2 mi. clear. Well, we all know that's not always possible
....it's a goal and one which can be attained, frequently, only by very early,
substantial action.


grandma Rosalie

ubject: Vessel detectors - radar visibility of your own vessel
From: Rosalie B.


I was driving the boat down along the coast from Ft. Pierce to Miami
at night - trying to keep out of the Gulf Stream and also out of the
zone where the Navy was doing underwater tests (i.e. staying in less
than 100 feet of water) while sailing which meant some tacking. I
could see some ships between me and the shore only because they were
dark shapes against the lights.

Never an easy task.


And one big cargo ship was coming north. I saw the red, white and
green lights. I moved out from shore a bit, but didn't want to go too
far out because of the Navy stuff. Then I saw just the white and
green, so I figured they were going in the inlet. Then they shut off
the green light and appeared to stop. A little bit later they turned
on the deck lights. I guess they anchored or picked up a mooring.

Anchored. If you see a ship heading North, close inshore in that area, he's
(probably) bound for a port or anchorage. Normally, ships Northbound will stay
well offshore in the axis of the Stream.

I've also been at the wheel following a big ship into an inlet, when
the ship stopped and started to back up (in daylight - I don't know
what I would have done at night).

There was a case here in the bay where a cruising boat running up the
western shore at night saw a ship on his radar and saw something else
that he couldn't ID, and apparently went down into the cabin to look
at a chart or get a cup of coffee or something, and he ran between a
tug and the tow and his boat sank within a couple of minutes.

Two errors here (well a bunch, actually).
A tug and tow, is normally an easy radar spot (kinda like a triangle small
target leading a larger one, close together, maintaining a same distance
separation) so poor radar interpretation on his part..... and never leave
the
radar, till you KNOW what you are seeing and what it's doing.

I agree with this, but this tug was towing on a long line and I gather
he made no connection between the two blips. I've also seen tugs
towing stuff like pipes so the tow doesn't have much of a radar or
sight profile at all.

Almost sounds like he was on too low a range scale. For normal viewing, at sea,
I'd suggest 6-12mi (and no lower than 3) to give the best overall picture
(naturally reducing from that if you are working a particular target or feel
the need to check the lower ranges, for numerous reasons).
Most tugs at sea will have 600-1200 feet of cable out (varies), but on the
longer range scales, after some experience, it will still be obvious as to what
they are.

In any case, they lost their boat and everything they owned and were
lucky to escape with their lives, although the Calvert Co Volunteer
Fire Department picked them up out of their dinghy within 15 minutes.

This is a shame, but at least they lived. Many in this case, don't.

Shen

ubject: Vessel detectors - radar visibility of your own vessel
From: "Armond Perretta"
Date: 08/25/2003 02:52 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Shen44 wrote:
From: "Armond Perretta"
Shen44 wrote:

Again .... never approach closer than two miles at sea, and if you
miss the ship and it's close aboard or within that distance,
figure it's up to you to avoid .... worry about some rule later.

Always a sound approach, but consider this. I have a 4 to 4.5 knot
sailboat. Offshore the commercial traffic I encounter (neglecting
for the moment commercial fishermen) typically maintains 16 to 24
knots. Even should I pick up a target at 8 miles on radar (or
otherwise), there is in a practical sense very little I can do to
_insure_ a CPA of 2 miles or better. I am speaking only from the
perspective of quite a bit of offshore cruising in a small sailing
boat, which is not to say I don't realize that "big boat always
wins."

Oh, fiddle faddle.

Which part is "fiddle" and which part is "faddle"?

Both. You're trying to make more of this than there is. I said it before, I'll
say it again .... The 2mi. figure is one you strive for, but don't always
achieve, and I would disagree, that even at your speed, that for MOST
situations you couldn't attain this or something approaching it.

When push comes, etc., the little boat gets out of the way or else. It
matters very little whether a ship missed you by 100 meters or 100 miles,
although I do in fact have a preference.

Nonetheless, what you suggest is not always (and in fact not even in the
majority of cases) possible.

Disagree

In addition one will _always_ have a difficult
time explaining maneuvering that is not allowed in the COLREGS should it
come to that (no matter what the General Prudential Rule states).

If you don't have a collision, what and to whom do you have to explain
anything? If you start your maneuver early enough and monitor it's
effectiveness, why should you ever need to worry about a close situation?

Placing the entire onus on the small boat is just as much an error as
placing the entire onus on the big boat.

The idea of what I'm talking about, is not placing the "onus" on the small
boat, as such. It's telling the "small boater"...Hey! You can have some
problems with large ships .... some of them your doing, some of them the
ships..... so, from experience and having been on both sides of the coin, I
reccommend ..... Now .... it may not always be technically legal and/or
convenient, but for the most part it might keep you out of trouble, more often
than not.

Shen

ubject: Vessel detectors - radar visibility of your own vessel
From: "Armond Perretta"
Date: 08/25/2003 03:07 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Shen44 wrote:
From: Rosalie B.

There are some boats, particularly off the FL coast which do not
have a heading that is stable. They are well lit so we can see
them ... but they don't maintain any kind of heading ... I think they are
gambling ships out just beyond the
requisite mile limit and aren't going anywhere particular ...

I have encountered these vessels and agree that they are gaming ships.

The one advantage to these types of ships, is they are normally
well lit ....

This advantage incurs to whom? If these gaming ships are maneuvering in a
manner that endangers other vessels, then they should have to account for
this course of action. Plain and simple.

Obviously, you either missed the point or want some kind of an argument. OK,
simply .... the advantage occurs to the small boat who can more easily see them
because of all those lites. The disadvantage incurs to everyone, because all
those lights frequently mask the running lights . No comment on their
maneuvering ... if they screw up, that's their problem, legally and otherwise.

The 2mi, is a number to strive for .... it's NOT written in stone.

No joke? Here I though you'd discovered a long lost section of the COLREGs.

Then act like you understand it and it's implications.

There was a case here in the bay where a cruising boat ... ran between a
tug and the tow and his boat sank within a couple of minutes.

A tug and tow, is normally an easy radar spot ...
so poor radar interpretation on his part..... and never leave the radar,
till you KNOW what you are seeing and what it's doing.

I just _love_ these rules. Have you ever _really_ single-handed a small
yacht offshore? I asked this earlier without success.

Rules? What Rules? Mayhaps you need some training in radar observation?

I don't understand what the need is for my sailing background, but, waddahey.
Started sailing when I was about 7. Always had sailboats until my mid thirties.
Sailing was limited to N.E. waters, inshore and offshore, from New York to
Maine. NEVER sailed offshore alone ... consider it an unsafe practice.
Been on ships since 1962, still play with small boats on occasion, and in fact
am always chasing ships around in small boats,in all kinds of visibility and
weather, and time of day, but normally, don't try to miss .... try for a
controlled collision at about 6-10 k.
Also, I don't do this for 3-4 months a year, I do it year round .... does that
quallify me to discuss this?

BTW, how many years do you have standing watches on a ship as PIC?

It's a clear cut problem with BOTH vessels keeping a proper
lookout, but not clear-cut as how you should respond for varying
conditions .... I'm saying try to stay at least 2 mi. clear. Well,
we all know that's not always possible ....it's a goal and one
which can be attained, frequently, only by very early, substantial
action.

You are preaching to the choir to a certain extent, while at the same time
suggesting that one should routinely disregard the COLREGs.

Not if you make your course alteration early enough.

It's not that I
disagree that collision avoidance is a good thing. It's more that one must
take into account the practicalities of each type of vessel, insist that all
vessels operate in accordance with the strictest interpretation of the
Rules, and then let experience and common sense take it from there. There
is no "little boat get out of the way first" rule that I am aware of,
although it _is_ indeed good advice in many cases.

It is not a rule, just a good idea. Don't let things develope to the point
where you have to use the rules, and the rules are no problem. There are too
many chance, where, you, the small boater, will not be seen or maneuvered for,
by the large ship .... know this and act accordingly.