researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

As my wife and I approach retirement, we are considering the purchase of
a boat on which to live and to cruise (coastal cruising with some
Carribbean or Pac Northwest). We're looking for reaources for
researching options, needs and the kinds of boats that would fit our needs.

I'm requesting help in identifying these resources, preferably onlline,
that we coould use to figure out what fits our needs and budget.

Thanks in advance.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

"Cal Vanize" wrote in message
...

As my wife and I approach retirement, we are considering the purchase of a
boat on which to live and to cruise (coastal cruising with some Carribbean
or Pac Northwest). We're looking for reaources for researching options,
needs and the kinds of boats that would fit our needs.

I'm requesting help in identifying these resources, preferably onlline,
that we coould use to figure out what fits our needs and budget.

Thanks in advance.


Anything from a rowboat to a cruise ship should fit your purposes.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

In article ,
Cal Vanize wrote:

As my wife and I approach retirement, we are considering the purchase
of a boat on which to live and to cruise (coastal cruising with some
Carribbean or Pac Northwest). We're looking for reaources for
researching options, needs and the kinds of boats that would fit our
needs.

I'm requesting help in identifying these resources, preferably
onlline, that we coould use to figure out what fits our needs and
budget.

I've always liked http://cruisenews.net It links to just about every
sailing resource in the world.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:46:00 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:

As my wife and I approach retirement, we are considering the purchase of
a boat on which to live and to cruise (coastal cruising with some
Carribbean or Pac Northwest).

Have you decided between power and sail ?

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:46:00 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:


As my wife and I approach retirement, we are considering the purchase of
a boat on which to live and to cruise (coastal cruising with some
Carribbean or Pac Northwest).


Have you decided between power and sail ?

We both have experience sailing, but would prefer power.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

My wife and I spent 10 years on our 36' catamaran cruising from Canada
to Venezuela. We returned to the States in 2002. We were on a limited
budget and did not spend as much as many other cruisers that we met.
The cost per year averaged a little less that $30k. We spend 4 years in
the Caribbean and loved it. I would recommend that you join Seven Seas
Cruising Association (SSCA) at www.SSCA.org You will learn much about
cruising from the monthly bulletins.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Cal Vanize wrote:

?

We both have experience sailing, but would prefer power.


I'd say have a look at trawler or tug configurations, but my new ideal
of live aboard / tour boats are the current generation of powered cats.
You really need to get more specific than just 'live aboard'. Will you
be touring AK in winter or the islands in August or both? What is your
budget to buy and yearly?

For example, CW recently did a long article on (sail only) living aboard
costs in three categories. Which is yours - $8k / yr to unlimited?

I'd say just subscribe to all mags and start going to boat shows. You'll
gravitate to what YOU want.

-paul

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Paul Cassel wrote:
Cal Vanize wrote:


?


We both have experience sailing, but would prefer power.


I'd say have a look at trawler or tug configurations, but my new ideal
of live aboard / tour boats are the current generation of powered cats.
You really need to get more specific than just 'live aboard'. Will you
be touring AK in winter or the islands in August or both? What is your
budget to buy and yearly?

AK, yes. But not in the wnter and not any farther than Prince Willian
Sound or Seward. The Carrib in the winter months, but not in August (I
have a mild alergy to hurricanes).

We're not planing to go from SoCal to Hawaii.

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.

From early research, trawlers seem to have a lot of what we're looking
for. Comfort, reliability, economic operation... These are more
important than speed.



For example, CW recently did a long article on (sail only) living aboard
costs in three categories. Which is yours - $8k / yr to unlimited?


I think we would prefer a power boat to a sail. After owning a sailboat
and sailing for a few years, wind is nice, but a lot of work. [no
flames, please, its just our opinion.]



I'd say just subscribe to all mags and start going to boat shows. You'll
gravitate to what YOU want.

-paul

Just started lookng at Border's this weekend. Trying to figure out which
mags "map" to our research needs.

Thanks.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:00:03 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:

Have you decided between power and sail ?

We both have experience sailing, but would prefer power.

I lot of sailors end up with trawlers as they near retirement age,
speaking from personal experience and others we know. We started out
7 years ago with a 33 ft sportfish just to see if we liked the concept
after a lifetime of sailing, and ended up with a Grand Banks trawler
for our "retirement boat". So far, no regrets although everything is
a compromise one way or another.

There is a book that I would recommend to you: "Stapleton's Powerboat
Bible" by Sid Stapleton.

http://tinyurl.com/y7gqff

There are other books by Chuck Gould and Robert Lamy that are worth a
look:

http://tinyurl.com/y5s329

http://tinyurl.com/y4cp9t

One of the most difficult decisions other than type of boat, is how
much to spend on it. Be sure to leave plenty of funds in reserve for
the inevitable repairs and upgrades, at least 30 to 50% over purchase
price in my opinion.

Also be aware that the cost of insurance is becoming a major expense,
especially for boats in southern states, and for older boats. Be sure
you have an insurance commitment at a price you can live with before
you finalize the deal on the boat.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 12:59:14 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.

I think you are going to have difficulty finding a suitable powerboat
for extended/offshore cruising in that price range. There are many
very capable used sailboats for that kind of money but extended range
and offshore seaworthiness come at a steep price in trawlers.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 12:59:14 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.

I think you are going to have difficulty finding a suitable powerboat
for extended/offshore cruising in that price range. There are many
very capable used sailboats for that kind of money but extended range
and offshore seaworthiness come at a steep price in trawlers.

Does Caribbean imply "extended range" or "offshore seaworthiness"?

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 12:59:14 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:


Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.


I think you are going to have difficulty finding a suitable powerboat
for extended/offshore cruising in that price range. There are many
very capable used sailboats for that kind of money but extended range
and offshore seaworthiness come at a steep price in trawlers.

There seems to be a LOT of listings in the Yachtworld.com site. The
bigger boats have more hours on the engines (in need of maintenance?).
(Not that many of these would be the right boat, just a cross-section of
prices and availability.)

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

I'd say have a look at trawler or tug configurations, but my new ideal
of live aboard / tour boats are the current generation of powered
cats.

Yep, there are some nice ones. Most of them are overpowered
though (true of power boats in general of course) and half
of them are uglier than a mule's butt.


You really need to get more specific than just 'live aboard'.
Will you be touring AK in winter or the islands in August or both?
What is your budget to buy and yearly?


Good things to know ahead of time. Then decide what you want
in terms of range, & draft.

Cal Vanize wrote:
AK, yes. But not in the wnter and not any farther than Prince Willian
Sound or Seward. The Carrib in the winter months, but not in August (I
have a mild alergy to hurricanes).

We're not planing to go from SoCal to Hawaii.

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.


Plenty of boats in that range, your problem will be to sort
out the "probables" from the "possibles" and allocate time
to do the leg-work.


From early research, trawlers seem to have a lot of what we're looking
for. Comfort, reliability, economic operation... These are more
important than speed.


We've been cruising in a trawler (after many many years
sailing) and find that it is a great way to travel. We don't
plan on living aboard though, other than on longer cruises
(keeping a shore residence).




Just started lookng at Border's this weekend. Trying to figure out which
mags "map" to our research needs.


None. That magazines cater to their advertisers. However if
you browse the current magazines as well as the library, as
well as checking into the trawers/trawlering discussion
group, you can find a lot of discussion of relevant issues.

We wanted a boat small enough to explore small coves &
creeks, shallow draft, medium/long range, good comfort for a
couple (by our definition), and NO FLYING BRIDGE. Took about
3 months of looking pretty hard, but we spent less than
you're budgeting... so obviously it can be done.

Fair Skies- Doug King

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

DSK wrote:


We wanted a boat small enough to explore small coves & creeks, shallow
draft, medium/long range, good comfort for a couple (by our definition),
and NO FLYING BRIDGE. Took about 3 months of looking pretty hard, but we
spent less than you're budgeting... so obviously it can be done.

Fair Skies- Doug King


May I ask why NO FLYING BRIDGE?

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:11:06 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Does Caribbean imply "extended range" or "offshore seaworthiness"?

It does to me. You've got to get there, and there are some rough
patches along the way with a long way between filling stations.

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 22:18:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
wrote:

May I ask why NO FLYING BRIDGE?

Good question. We love our flybridge and almost never use the lower
helm except in miserable weather.

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

Cal Vanize wrote:
May I ask why NO FLYING BRIDGE?


A couple of reasons, the main one is also a big reason why
we did not get a sailboat for serious cruising: sun exposure
& skin cancer.

The flying bridge also increases clearance height, and many
of the inland routes we like to explore have low bridges.
Poor access to the working areas of the deck when anything
is happening. It's an uncomfortable place to ride in rolly
conditions. Another reason is that I don't like their looks,
most of 'em anyway.

Instead we chose a boat with very good visibility from the
pilothouse, and very good access in & out.

It limits the search, since apparently 99% of powerboats
have flying bridges, but then we don't worry about following
the horde. We don't watch TV either ;)

Fair Skies
Doug King

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:17:44 -0500, DSK wrote:

A couple of reasons, the main one is also a big reason why
we did not get a sailboat for serious cruising: sun exposure
& skin cancer.

Yes, that's a big issue for serious cruisers, especially on sailboats.
We have a full enclosure on our flybridge which helps a lot, but still
need to wear a hat during mid day.

Bridge clearance depends on where you boat of course but not a problem
for us except in the Keys.

The visibility and sense of openness on the flybridge is what makes it
important to me. I'd never give it up unless I was in a hostile
climate.

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

A couple of reasons, the main one is also a big reason why
we did not get a sailboat for serious cruising: sun exposure
& skin cancer.


Wayne.B wrote:
Yes, that's a big issue for serious cruisers, especially on sailboats.
We have a full enclosure on our flybridge which helps a lot, but still
need to wear a hat during mid day.


"Wear a hat" doesn't really work once you start developing
keratoses & basal cells. I've had sailing friends younger
than I am die of melamoma. It may get me too, but if so, I
want as many years as I can get beforehand!

If you've spent significant amounts of time out in the sun
over the past 30 years, the only answer is to keep out of it
as much as possible.




Bridge clearance depends on where you boat of course but not a problem
for us except in the Keys.


If you do the Great Loop, the limit is 17'. The western NY
canal adn the Lake Champlain canal is 15'. A lot of inland
routes have lower limits than that. We can get down to 12'
which would be impossible with a flying bridge, and opens up
a vast number of rivers & canals. It also cuts down the
number of bridges we have to wait for on the ICW.



The visibility and sense of openness on the flybridge is what makes it
important to me.

We have great visibility from our helm. Most boats with
pilothouses assume that you'll be driving from there, and so
the sight lines from the lower helm suck.



... I'd never give it up unless I was in a hostile
climate.


You *are* in hostile climate. It just takes a long time to
get you. Of course, if there was some way of bringing back
the ozone layer, that would help ;)

DSK

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:02:47 -0500, DSK wrote:

A couple of reasons, the main one is also a big reason why
we did not get a sailboat for serious cruising: sun exposure
& skin cancer.


Wayne.B wrote:
Yes, that's a big issue for serious cruisers, especially on sailboats.
We have a full enclosure on our flybridge which helps a lot, but still
need to wear a hat during mid day.


"Wear a hat" doesn't really work once you start developing
keratoses & basal cells. I've had sailing friends younger
than I am die of melamoma. It may get me too, but if so, I
want as many years as I can get beforehand!

If you've spent significant amounts of time out in the sun
over the past 30 years, the only answer is to keep out of it
as much as possible.

I certainly qualify in the 30+ years department but I refuse to become
a total indoor recluse. I just enjoy being "out there" too much. At
age 61+ I've also gained the dubious distinction of being unable to
die young. :-)

I do take reasonable precautions with big hats and grade 50 sunscreen
however.


Bridge clearance depends on where you boat of course but not a problem
for us except in the Keys.


If you do the Great Loop, the limit is 17'. The western NY
canal adn the Lake Champlain canal is 15'. A lot of inland
routes have lower limits than that. We can get down to 12'
which would be impossible with a flying bridge, and opens up
a vast number of rivers & canals. It also cuts down the
number of bridges we have to wait for on the ICW.

We did the Champlain Canal in our old Bertram 33 flybridge sportfish
and found the clearance to be a tad over 15 ft at the Ft Edwards
bridge, which is the lowest one. We measured ourselves the day before
at 14 ft 9 inches and estimated that there was an additional 6 to 9
inches of clearance going under. There were quite a few 40 something
flybridge trawlers along the way, running with their masts down of
course. Unfortunately our GB49 is set up with a semi-permanent radar
arch on the flybridge, otherwise we could get down to 15 by dropping
the enclosure and mast.




The visibility and sense of openness on the flybridge is what makes it
important to me.

We have great visibility from our helm. Most boats with
pilothouses assume that you'll be driving from there, and so
the sight lines from the lower helm suck.



... I'd never give it up unless I was in a hostile
climate.


You *are* in hostile climate. It just takes a long time to
get you. Of course, if there was some way of bringing back
the ozone layer, that would help ;)

DSK

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

"Wear a hat" doesn't really work once you start developing
keratoses & basal cells. I've had sailing friends younger
than I am die of melamoma. It may get me too, but if so, I
want as many years as I can get beforehand!

If you've spent significant amounts of time out in the sun
over the past 30 years, the only answer is to keep out of it
as much as possible.


Wayne.B wrote:
I certainly qualify in the 30+ years department but I refuse to become
a total indoor recluse.

Cruising in a pilothouse vessel is "becoming a total indoor
recluse"?



.... I just enjoy being "out there" too much. At
age 61+ I've also gained the dubious distinction of being unable to
die young. :-)


Y'know, a few decades ago I'd have said, "Shucks what's the
point after you turn 40?" but one's perception of how old is
"too old" changes with time!


I do take reasonable precautions with big hats and grade 50 sunscreen
however.


Same here. In fact I make it a point to slather up several
times a day. But I have noticed a huge difference in the
amount of sun exposure I get on a 2 week cruise (basically
none) and the amount of sun that our friends who are very
cautious & diligent return with.... ranging from noticable
sunburn to being red as Indians.





We did the Champlain Canal in our old Bertram 33 flybridge sportfish
and found the clearance to be a tad over 15 ft at the Ft Edwards
bridge, which is the lowest one. We measured ourselves the day before
at 14 ft 9 inches and estimated that there was an additional 6 to 9
inches of clearance going under.

Sounds good... we plan to do that route but not immediately.
We've gone under some places that are marked 14' along the
ICW, and cleared the New Bern swing bridge (about 12' 6")
earlier this year with great caution & slowness.


... There were quite a few 40 something
flybridge trawlers along the way, running with their masts down of
course.

Practically everything has a flybridge. Most people like
them, I'm not trying to say they're terrible. Just answering
why *I* don't want one.

Anyway, all else being equal, a flying bridge will have
higher clearance than the same boat without (if there is
such a boat).


.... Unfortunately our GB49 is set up with a semi-permanent radar
arch on the flybridge, otherwise we could get down to 15 by dropping
the enclosure and mast.


A 49 is a pretty big boat for cruising in these little bitty
places...

DSK

researching live-aboard cruising boats - DSK
 

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:10:04 -0500, DSK wrote:

A 49 is a pretty big boat for cruising in these little bitty
places...

Sometimes but when you are living on it for 6 months of the year and
doing the north/south trip, it's just about right.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Cal Vanize wrote:


From early research, trawlers seem to have a lot of what we're looking
for. Comfort, reliability, economic operation... These are more
important than speed.


Don't eliminate tugs. I transported a tug which was wonderfully
comfortable inside.

Due to the fuel scare, the price on trawlers or any power boat is at
bottom. I'm astounded at the rapid drop. I know because my buddy is in
the market like you are, but for a larger boat.

A quick search on Yachtworld for trawlers ONLY returned 333 between $80k
and $120k. I'd say right there is indication that what you plan is
feasible.

Look, I don't want to make light of this, but there really isn't
anything to it. I've lived aboard for 7 years including having built a
boat and I knew nothing about it to start. You just do it if it sounds
good. There is NOTHING you can read or hear which will tell you if you
will like the on board life.

It's like blue water sailing. Nothing will predict if, when land falls
from sight, if you freak out or relax. You just need to try it.

I STRONGLY suggest you and wife start traveling to see some of the boats
listed for sale. Decide if you wish to live inside one.

If you try and decide it's not for you, it won't mean your deaths.
You'll sell the boat and try Plan B.

-paul

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.

Annual budget of 30K for a power boat isn't much unless you plan on not
going very far. If you juist tie it in a slip, that alone will probably
cost you 6K per annum. Low $100k's doesn't buy much of a power boat either.
Maybe an old 32' trawler.

Your "about to retire". I wouldn't try this on the cheap especially at age
60+. I am 60 and live on a 2003 Beneteau 473 sailboat on the Chesapeake Bay
with my dachshund Beaurgard. I actually cruise in my boat and my average
expenses per year, are a whole lot more that 30K. My boat insurance alone
is 3K and I'm a licensed master with over 40 years of experience who has
never filed a claim and has no hits on his license.

I think you really ought to rethink this.

I wish you the best.

Cap'n Ric

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Wayne.B wrote:
opinion.

Also be aware that the cost of insurance is becoming a major expense,
especially for boats in southern states, and for older boats. Be sure
you have an insurance commitment at a price you can live with before
you finalize the deal on the boat.

All excellent advice. I'll add that you should have a commitment on a
home berth before buying.

-paul

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Cal Vanize wrote:
As my wife and I approach retirement, we are considering the purchase of
a boat on which to live and to cruise (coastal cruising with some
Carribbean or Pac Northwest). We're looking for reaources for
researching options, needs and the kinds of boats that would fit our needs.

I'm requesting help in identifying these resources, preferably onlline,
that we coould use to figure out what fits our needs and budget.

Thanks in advance.

My favorite 80'x23'x13' Steel Gulf Shrimper
CAT 3412 at 540 HP continous

haul out, blast bottom and house to whitemetal, prime and topcoats ,
plus zinks and a few extras...............$10,000 at most northwest
yards

http://www.marcon.com/marcon2c.cfm?S...& PageID=1146

Lost for sale in the mid $100k and under 10 years old.
Think big............... think stout..................... think
commercial boats that cant fish anymore.

Why get a plastic wana be when ya can get the real thing!

BOb

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.


Cap'n Ric wrote:
Annual budget of 30K for a power boat isn't much unless you plan on not
going very far.

Or get a boat that is fuel efficient (ie not a speedboat)
From what I have read, and talking to a lot of different
cruiser in both power & sail bost, there isn't a whole lot
of difference in the cost of cruising (unless you are
burning fuel to make ten tons of boat & furniture plane).

DSK

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

DSK wrote:

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.



Cap'n Ric wrote:

Annual budget of 30K for a power boat isn't much unless you plan on
not going very far.


Or get a boat that is fuel efficient (ie not a speedboat)
From what I have read, and talking to a lot of different cruiser in
both power & sail bost, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the
cost of cruising (unless you are burning fuel to make ten tons of boat &
furniture plane).

DSK



Though one can never rely on manufacturer's claims, the range of boats
we're looking at are single engine or small twin trawlers that seem to
burn well under 10gph with most quoted in the 4 - 7gph range. We don't
expect to break any speed records - in fact, maybe the idea behind a
cruise, at least for us, is the journey as much as the destination.
That may change in the long-run, but for now, that's the vision.

However, some factors that have been brought to our attention include
insurance and home slip. We have not taken these fully into
consideration. So we do need to pay more attention to these fixed costs
in our annual operating budget. We have a great deal on our current
slip and our insurance broker has done a very effective job to minimize
our costs.

We have some time, plenty of time, before we commit. I just hope the
current prices stay depressed until AFTER we make the purchase. ;)

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

DSK inscribed in red ink for all to know:
Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.



Cap'n Ric wrote:

Annual budget of 30K for a power boat isn't much unless you plan on
not going very far.


Or get a boat that is fuel efficient (ie not a speedboat)
From what I have read, and talking to a lot of different cruiser in
both power & sail bost, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the
cost of cruising (unless you are burning fuel to make ten tons of boat &
furniture plane).

DSK


I can only offer this direct, real-world comparison. Two years ago, we
(and our 50' ketch, Perkins 4-236 4 cyl diesel) made a month-long trip
from Seattle to Desolation Sound and back. During the same time frame,
friends of ours down the dock made essentially the same trip in their
55' (?) trawler-style power boat. Not sure of the power plants, but
they are also diesel. We burned 95 gallons of diesel over the course of
the month. The power boat burned 895 gallons of diesel.

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Cal Vanize wrote:
Though one can never rely on manufacturer's claims, the range of boats
we're looking at are single engine or small twin trawlers that seem to
burn well under 10gph with most quoted in the 4 - 7gph range.

We burn about 1 3/4 gph cruising about 7 to 7.5 knots. The
boat will (in theory) go 8.5 but fuel consumption starts
getting up into the 5gph range and we make a loke of wake
and foam and noise, for not a lot of speed gained.

http://sports.webshots.com/album/550708407IeSjaU

... We don't
expect to break any speed records - in fact, maybe the idea behind a
cruise, at least for us, is the journey as much as the destination. That
may change in the long-run, but for now, that's the vision.


Sure. There are too many great places, too close together,
to be worth rushing frantically from one to the next. We've
had cruises in NC and on the Chesapeake where we never went
more than 30 miles in a day and enjoyed beautiful anchorages
every night.


However, some factors that have been brought to our attention include
insurance and home slip. We have not taken these fully into
consideration. So we do need to pay more attention to these fixed costs
in our annual operating budget. We have a great deal on our current
slip and our insurance broker has done a very effective job to minimize
our costs.


And don't forget, cruising is best defined as "fixing your
boat in exotic & inconvenient locations." There will always
be unexpected expenses, but with good skills & foresight
they are not crippling.

IMHO 30K a year is do-able. People are out there cruising
for less.


We have some time, plenty of time, before we commit. I just hope the
current prices stay depressed until AFTER we make the purchase. ;)


I think the price depression of the boat market is mostly a
matter of more realistic expectations on the part of sellers
who are trying to unload neglected boats. The top 10% of
boats in best condition seem to be selling readily. However,
I do think there are two long term factors (and they affect
more than just the boat market)

1- the golden age of retirement is over. Fewer & fewer
people are going to be able to afford to buy a boat and
cruise when they stop work (or just slow down).
1a- waterfront property is getting more & more expensive
driving up costs for marinas & facilities; boating expenses
are climb & it's going to be harder & harder to find
out-of-the-way Mom-N-Pop friendly marinas.

2- younger people are less & less interested in the outdoors
in general. The demand for boats (relative to the
population) is shrinking.

But hey, if it was all gonna be easy, it wouldn't be fun!

Fair Skies
Doug King

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

RW Salnick wrote:
DSK inscribed in red ink for all to know:

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.




Cap'n Ric wrote:

Annual budget of 30K for a power boat isn't much unless you plan on
not going very far.



Or get a boat that is fuel efficient (ie not a speedboat)
From what I have read, and talking to a lot of different cruiser in
both power & sail bost, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the
cost of cruising (unless you are burning fuel to make ten tons of boat
& furniture plane).

DSK


I can only offer this direct, real-world comparison. Two years ago, we
(and our 50' ketch, Perkins 4-236 4 cyl diesel) made a month-long trip
from Seattle to Desolation Sound and back. During the same time frame,
friends of ours down the dock made essentially the same trip in their
55' (?) trawler-style power boat. Not sure of the power plants, but
they are also diesel. We burned 95 gallons of diesel over the course of
the month. The power boat burned 895 gallons of diesel.

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle


How much time was spent under sail?

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

RW Salnick wrote:
I can only offer this direct, real-world comparison. Two years ago,
we (and our 50' ketch, Perkins 4-236 4 cyl diesel) made a month-long
trip from Seattle to Desolation Sound and back. During the same time
frame, friends of ours down the dock made essentially the same trip in
their 55' (?) trawler-style power boat. Not sure of the power plants,
but they are also diesel. We burned 95 gallons of diesel over the
course of the month. The power boat burned 895 gallons of diesel.


Cal Vanize wrote:
How much time was spent under sail?


Going at what speed?

Not meaning to be suspicious but a lot of "trawler style"
power boats these days are semi-planing hulls disguised to
look like tugboats.

If two boats of relatively similar LWL & displacement motor
at the same speed, their fuel consumption will generally be
pretty close to the same.

Now, how much did you spend on sails & running rigging, and
how much fuel would that amount buy? ;)

DSK

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Cal Vanize inscribed in red ink for all to know:


RW Salnick wrote:

DSK inscribed in red ink for all to know:

Budget max to buy is low $100k's. Annual budget would be in the
neighborhood of $25-30k.





Cap'n Ric wrote:

Annual budget of 30K for a power boat isn't much unless you plan on
not going very far.




Or get a boat that is fuel efficient (ie not a speedboat)
From what I have read, and talking to a lot of different cruiser in
both power & sail bost, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the
cost of cruising (unless you are burning fuel to make ten tons of
boat & furniture plane).

DSK


I can only offer this direct, real-world comparison. Two years ago,
we (and our 50' ketch, Perkins 4-236 4 cyl diesel) made a month-long
trip from Seattle to Desolation Sound and back. During the same time
frame, friends of ours down the dock made essentially the same trip in
their 55' (?) trawler-style power boat. Not sure of the power plants,
but they are also diesel. We burned 95 gallons of diesel over the
course of the month. The power boat burned 895 gallons of diesel.

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle



How much time was spent under sail?



I don't recall, but "as much as possible", given that frequently a
destination was targeted... I think that well more than half the miles
were made under sail. Under power, we average 5.5 kt, and tho under
sail, the speed variation was much greater, we probably averaged pretty
much the same speed overall. One of our criteria was that if our speed
(in the water) dropped to less than about 3.5 kt, we fired up the
Perkins. Also, the PNW is an area of tremendous currents - if our SOG
dropped to less than 2 kt, we fired up the Perkins as well.

Frequently, the comparisons between power and sail are made with both
boats under power. The thing that seems to be often left out in these
comparisons is that with a sail boat, there is a lot of time when you
are making miles with the engine switched off completely.

This trip was in what is considered to be "inland waters" where the wind
is less reliable than what you would find in coastal cruising. I have
no experience there, but others might well say that our ratio of sail to
power was lower than their experience. For example, friends of ours
recently completed the trip from Seattle to San Francisco. Better than
95% of their miles were made under sail.

What you will find is highly dependant on the area you intend to cruise,
the time of year during which you intend to cruise, and a really
indefinable quantity that is some combination of your enjoyment of the
experience of being under sail, your patience, and your focus on the
journey (as well as the destination). This is a very personal thing,
and the great variety of boat types on the water reflects this
diversity. Pick a boat that matches your personality type, or you will
be forever frustrated, disappointed, and ultimately, disinterested in
boating. Judging by the number of boats (of *all* types) that sit tied
to the dock 40 or 50 weeks out of the year, not many people get this
right...

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

DSK inscribed in red ink for all to know:
RW Salnick wrote:

I can only offer this direct, real-world comparison. Two years ago,
we (and our 50' ketch, Perkins 4-236 4 cyl diesel) made a month-long
trip from Seattle to Desolation Sound and back. During the same time
frame, friends of ours down the dock made essentially the same trip
in their 55' (?) trawler-style power boat. Not sure of the power
plants, but they are also diesel. We burned 95 gallons of diesel
over the course of the month. The power boat burned 895 gallons of
diesel.


Cal Vanize wrote:

How much time was spent under sail?


Going at what speed?

Not meaning to be suspicious but a lot of "trawler style" power boats
these days are semi-planing hulls disguised to look like tugboats.

If two boats of relatively similar LWL & displacement motor at the same
speed, their fuel consumption will generally be pretty close to the same.

Now, how much did you spend on sails & running rigging, and how much
fuel would that amount buy? ;)

DSK


Oh, this is definitely a displacement hull... no doubt about that.

The sails, rigging, etc came with the boat...as well as the diesel.
Didn't spend anything extra on them. I have replaced some of the
running rigging in the 10 years we have owned Eolian - probably
$100-200/year. And my oil changes in the diesel involve 2 gallons of
oil altogether.

But as I said to Cal, this is less about cost than about money well
spent. If you buy the least expensive boat type (by whatever criteria
you should choose to use - and the arguments on this subject abound here
on usenet), and end up with a boat that doesn't match your personality
properly, then *all* the money will be poorly employed, supporting a
marine life habitat tied to the dock.

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

RW Salnick wrote:
Oh, this is definitely a displacement hull... no doubt about that.


Sorry, I meant the trawler that burned 895 gallons... For a
55' boat that's probably not even a full load (maybe not
even half), but then there are trawlers I know of in the 45'
~ 50' range that burn approx the same 2 gph that we do. The
ones that burn more all go faster... the ones that go
significantly faster don't want to talk about it ;)


The sails, rigging, etc came with the boat...as well as the diesel.
Didn't spend anything extra on them. I have replaced some of the
running rigging in the 10 years we have owned Eolian - probably
$100-200/year. And my oil changes in the diesel involve 2 gallons of
oil altogether.


'K
But sails do have a finite life span, and ones that are
worth having in the first place are relatively expensive.
Amortizing them over 10 to 12 years makes them a better buy
for the mileage than diesel fuel.... however, if power
boaters were content to cruise at 5 knots, they'd burn FAR
less fuel. Shucks with our boat (which is overpowered IMHO)
if we go 5 knots it seems like the engine is actually making
fuel out of air and pumping it back to the tank!


But as I said to Cal, this is less about cost than about money well
spent.

Very much agreed.

.... If you buy the least expensive boat type (by whatever criteria
you should choose to use - and the arguments on this subject abound here
on usenet), and end up with a boat that doesn't match your personality
properly, then *all* the money will be poorly employed, supporting a
marine life habitat tied to the dock.


Agreed again, and there are mor examples IMHO of people
getting this wrong than getting it right.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 11:36:48 -0500, DSK wrote:

We burn about 1 3/4 gph cruising about 7 to 7.5 knots. The
boat will (in theory) go 8.5 but fuel consumption starts
getting up into the 5gph range and we make a loke of wake
and foam and noise, for not a lot of speed gained.

Here's another data point:

On our Grand Banks 49 we average about 1 gallon per mile on extended
cruises unless we make a really concious effort to economize which can
save an additional 10 to 20%. That includes about 4 hours per day of
generator time, running on both engines, and using active stabilizers
virtually 100% of the time. Our average speed is about 8.5 kts,
slowing to about 7.9 if we are really trying to stretch the fuel.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 11:36:48 -0500, DSK wrote:

We burn about 1 3/4 gph cruising about 7 to 7.5 knots. The
boat will (in theory) go 8.5 but fuel consumption starts
getting up into the 5gph range and we make a loke of wake
and foam and noise, for not a lot of speed gained.

Here's another data point:

On our Grand Banks 49 we average about 1 gallon per mile on extended
cruises unless we make a really concious effort to economize which can
save an additional 10 to 20%. That includes about 4 hours per day of
generator time, running on both engines, and using active stabilizers
virtually 100% of the time. Our average speed is about 8.5 kts,
slowing to about 7.9 if we are really trying to stretch the fuel.

This doesn't seem quite right to me - my catamaran, which weighs about
15% of what your trawler weighs, uses almost as much fuel.

If you boat displaces 60000 pounds, then it will need about 60 HP to
get over 7 knots, 90 hp to get to 8.5 knots. Looking at specs for
various Caterpillar engines, the gallons/hour at 60 hp is 3+ gals.
Using two smaller engines doesn't help that much, though at least they
can idle with lower consumption.

Your number only make sense if you spend more time on average using
you engines to run the A/C than propel the boat.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:51:33 -0500, Jeff wrote:

This doesn't seem quite right to me - my catamaran, which weighs about
15% of what your trawler weighs, uses almost as much fuel.

If you boat displaces 60000 pounds, then it will need about 60 HP to
get over 7 knots, 90 hp to get to 8.5 knots. Looking at specs for
various Caterpillar engines, the gallons/hour at 60 hp is 3+ gals.
Using two smaller engines doesn't help that much, though at least they
can idle with lower consumption.

Your number only make sense if you spend more time on average using
you engines to run the A/C than propel the boat.

I'm not entirely sure that I understand your point. The numbers are
what they are, and yes, the boat weighs about 60,000 lbs.

The engines are twin Detroit 6-71s which are way bigger than what is
actually needed to run at 8.5 kts. I'm sure that introduces some
inefficiencies. The port side engine also drives a hydraulic pump for
the stabilizer system. It wouldn't surprise me if that took an
additional 10 to 20 hp, or about 1 gph. The primary generator is an
oversized 20 KW unit that uses about 1 gph on average but we do not
run it continuously except in hot weather.

The best we have ever done is about 6 gallons per hour running 7.9 kts
in flat water, and using the smaller backup generator as little as
possible.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:51:33 -0500, Jeff wrote:

This doesn't seem quite right to me - my catamaran, which weighs about
15% of what your trawler weighs, uses almost as much fuel.

If you boat displaces 60000 pounds, then it will need about 60 HP to
get over 7 knots, 90 hp to get to 8.5 knots. Looking at specs for
various Caterpillar engines, the gallons/hour at 60 hp is 3+ gals.
Using two smaller engines doesn't help that much, though at least they
can idle with lower consumption.

Your number only make sense if you spend more time on average using
you engines to run the A/C than propel the boat.

I'm not entirely sure that I understand your point. The numbers are
what they are, and yes, the boat weighs about 60,000 lbs.

The engines are twin Detroit 6-71s which are way bigger than what is
actually needed to run at 8.5 kts. I'm sure that introduces some
inefficiencies. The port side engine also drives a hydraulic pump for
the stabilizer system. It wouldn't surprise me if that took an
additional 10 to 20 hp, or about 1 gph. The primary generator is an
oversized 20 KW unit that uses about 1 gph on average but we do not
run it continuously except in hot weather.

The best we have ever done is about 6 gallons per hour running 7.9 kts
in flat water, and using the smaller backup generator as little as
possible.

Sorry - I read 1 GPM as 1 GPH! Doing about 8 GPH when approaching
hull speed is in line with my rules of thumb.

researching live-aboard cruising boats
 

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 22:28:05 -0500, Jeff wrote:

1 GPH

If only it were true. :-)