Normally before the splash you hear an OOPS.


"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:28:24 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

Rick & Linda Bernard wrote:

... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch
is too powerful."

Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch
is
too expensive."

I've even heard, "Geez, this winch HANDLE is too expensive!"

Usually right before it slips, bounces on the toerail on its way over
the side....(c;



Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

If you luff up a bit that will take considerable load off of the sheet.
Also what is the basis for you calculations. I would think that 35*86 =
3000 # force. That in my book would be a knock down.

Most marine catalogs suggest power ratios for various size boats and rigs.
You can also get a double handle or one with a knob (1 1/2 handles) for more
power.


"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...


Armond Perretta wrote:
Rick & Linda Bernard wrote:

... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch
is too powerful."


Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this
winch is
too expensive."

Tell me about it!!

While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can
put on a winch handle? The "generally accepted" formula for
determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the
maximum force. With a 500 sq.ft. foretriangle that works out to 86:1.
That is a $5,000 winch!!! A 64 cost about $3500 which is the limit of
my buget but the handle force would be 48 lb.

I'm thinking I may just head up a little, trim and fall off and save
$3-4K. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Speaking of dropping things over the side..

Happened to me yesterday.

I had spent 2 days in my machine/weld shop making a longer 'jaw' afair for
my clew outhaul car.. Lotta work but what a fine job I did.. I can say that
now (that it is on the bottom in 30 ft of water.

If only I had make it out of something that would float or was magnetic. No
hope of recovering it since I was swinging on a mooring bouy and the swing
radius creates a very large search area. If I had had my gps turned on, I
could have done a MOB and go down with some dive gear.

I won't repeat my general abusive language here..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Ilv2sl wrote:

I'm going to replace the old wire main halyard winch, on my 35' sloop, with a
line winch. Just wondering if there is a need for a 2sp. winch, for halyard use
only. Other 2sp. winches are available for lifting, hoisting aloft, etc.
Thanks to all.


Why replace the winch? Our old halyard winch is for wire and works just
fine for line. If it isn't working right, a quick cleaning may be all
that's needed.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Why replace the winch? Our old halyard winch is for wire and works just
fine for line. If it isn't working right, a quick cleaning may be all
that's needed.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)

The reason I want to replace the reel winch with a winch for line, is to be
able to raise the main faster, and being able to lower it easier, rather than
letting go the brake. Also, not having to worry about the winch handle breaking
a wrist, if someone leaves it in and releases the brake, or the brake fails.

My question should have been, Has anyone with a 1sp. main halyard winch, found
they would like to have a 2sp winch. Just refering to mailsail luff tensioning,
not hoisting aloft, etc.
I have both a Barient 16 ss 1sp. winch, and a Lewmar 16 chrome 2sp, and have to
decide which one to install, and which to sell. The Barient is in excellent
condition, and the Lwemar is new.
So, do any of you 1sp. users feel a 2 sp. would be the way to go?
Thanks

Ilv2sl wrote:

The reason I want to replace the reel winch with a winch for line, is to be
able to raise the main faster, and being able to lower it easier, rather than
letting go the brake. Also, not having to worry about the winch handle breaking
a wrist, if someone leaves it in and releases the brake, or the brake fails.

My question should have been, Has anyone with a 1sp. main halyard winch, found
they would like to have a 2sp winch. Just refering to mailsail luff tensioning,
not hoisting aloft, etc.
I have both a Barient 16 ss 1sp. winch, and a Lewmar 16 chrome 2sp, and have to
decide which one to install, and which to sell. The Barient is in excellent
condition, and the Lwemar is new.
So, do any of you 1sp. users feel a 2 sp. would be the way to go?
Thanks


If one of the companies is out of business, I'd keep the other. We have
old Barlow winches that we can still get parts for, but I worry about
when/if I run out of what I have in the "junk box". (I think I replaced
one pawl in 10 years.)

I don't know Barient, but Lewmar seems to be a going concern, so with
what little I know, I'd go for the Lewmar. That it's 2 speed is a plus,
though that's hardly needed for a 16.

One thing about halyard winches: Since they're mounted on the mast, you
can put your full weight into cranking.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:50:27 -0500, "Rick & Linda Bernard"
wrote:

Normally before the splash you hear an OOPS.

In South Carolina, Redneck Country, you hear a lot of cursing from
wherever the handle's owner WAS standing....(c;



Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...

While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can
put on a winch handle?

50 lbs or so for a good sized male. Less for average femals and smaller
males.


The "generally accepted" formula for
determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the
maximum force. With a 500 sq.ft. foretriangle that works out to 86:1

Naaah, somethings wrong with your math or something.

Is that the size of your largest sail or the 100% fore triangle area?
What's going to be your largest foresail (either J% or sq. ft)?

I can make a recommendation based on that - and how big is your wife!

--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)

Several thoughts:

I've never heard your "six times the sail area" formula. The usual
number is to calculate sheet force as .004 x sail area (sq ft) x wind
speed squared (is that square knots?) Your formula gives the same load
as the standard at around 39 knots, but the load at 39 knots is four
times that at 20 knots, and you will certainly have changed headsails
by then, probably twice.

References:
Harken catalogs for at least the last ten years
Oceanography and Seamanship, Van Dorn, Cornell Maritime Press (the
best not too technical text on its subjects by far -- you should add
it to your list)
Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, Kinney, Dodd Mead
also Marchaj, Henderson, and others.

We had Harken 980s (80:1) and Lewmar 65s in the cockpit on Swee****er
and were probably overwinched there. We added the Harkens after
sailing her in the summer of 1994 with old sheets, old sails, and
winches that hadn't been maintained in years. The rebuilt Lewmars
were fine.

Her foretriangle was 850 sq ft (100%) and we usually used an 1100
square foot Spectra genoa on a roller. For passages in windy areas
(the Tasman, etc.) we switched to a Yankee with a very high clew and a
forestaysail on the removable stay. I should add that both of us were
(and still are) 50-something and in the sort of reasonable condition
you get into when you're living on a boat, but not exceptional in any
way.

Remember that you're not racing -- race boat winches are sized to
bring a big genoa in fast when tacking, then do it again and again
without taxing the gorillas -- crusing winches should make it
reasonably easy to bring the sail in, but you can always luff up a
bit.

I think you'll be perfectly happy with 56s, possibly less. You'll find
65s too big (yes, winches can be too big, as they are slower) --
remember Swee****er came with 65s and her foretriangle is 70% bigger
than yours.

And by the way, this assumes you hang one sail up there. You call her
a "cutter" -- if you're never going to hang a single big genoa, then
all these numbers are too high.

As for Harken, they may have changed designs since we bought ours new
in 1995, but the ones we had were much less satisfactory than the 1982
Lewmars that came with the boat (we put new pawls, pawl springs, and
some bearings in the Lewmars). The Harkens required more frequent
cleaning and felt less efficent.

We put an electric Harken 53 on the main halyard (versus Harken's
recommendation of a 48) and the drive gear broke twice -- once in the
Galapagos and once off Malta. Although both were within the three
year warranty period, I paid $500 for each fix. Fortunately it still
worked in armstrong mode.

So, while I wouldn't use any other brand of blocks, and I love their
ball top winch handles, any future winches I buy will not be Harken (I
bought two Lewmar 65s, well used, but nice, at the Beaulieu Boat
Jumble (read "flea market") for Fintry for £400 each). We'll use them
for flag halyards and docking.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message ...
Armond Perretta wrote:

I don't know your source for this, Glenn, but I have pretty much
always heard the figure of 50 pounds quoted. Then you do the ratio
math from there.

Without looking it up I think Wally Ross has some tables for this (my
sailing books are still in boxes 3 moths after the move to a new
house).


The 35 comes from Brion Toss's book and a couple of articles I found on
the Harkne and Lewmar sites on sizing winches. I thought it was a bit
low myself. That's why I asked. Brion is a big Harken booster and
probably got that number from them but they are out to sell winches so I
guess you need to take their recommendations with a grain of salt. :-)

I believe I am going with Harken as I already have a Harken 44 electric
for the halyards and reefing lines. My choices therefore are between a
56 at about $2600 each and 55 lbs of force and a 64 at $3600 each and 45
lbs force.

The pressure is really on now and the boat bucks are just flying out of
my wallet. Harken usually raises prices in November so I need to make a
decision by the time I leave the Annapolis show.

It doesn't take that much force to tension the main luff. And in any
case, I prefer a separate cunningham. I use a 4 part tackle on the
cunningham in my Tartan 30.
--