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You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
When we pay premium prices for our marine equiptment it needs to be
reliable and WORK. Our safety depends on good working reliable products. Companies need to make a profit on their products, good, but when it comes to Marine products they also need to make them with quality and reliability, were paying extra for that. When they fail and fail often the company needs to be held accountable. The author is doing the right thing because it is his only way of telling the company something is wrong and their product needs to be made better, I wish more of this would occur. I don't know about you I would love to sleep better at night knowing my expensive marine equiptment is going to perform. Cpt. Craig |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
I agree that the author has every right to speak his mind. It's unfortunate
that we can't discuss matters of this sort like mature adults. I thought that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring field! Louis s/v Synergy Westsail 32 #679 "Craig" wrote in message om... When we pay premium prices for our marine equiptment it needs to be reliable and WORK. Our safety depends on good working reliable products. Companies need to make a profit on their products, good, but when it comes to Marine products they also need to make them with quality and reliability, were paying extra for that. When they fail and fail often the company needs to be held accountable. The author is doing the right thing because it is his only way of telling the company something is wrong and their product needs to be made better, I wish more of this would occur. I don't know about you I would love to sleep better at night knowing my expensive marine equiptment is going to perform. Cpt. Craig |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
I thought
that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring field! This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months. While a few companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service, I've learned that sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda even tried to resolve the problem and posted a response. They claim improper installation and so on. We'll never no the whole story, unless we all visit the boat or see detailed pics. The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and spin stories this way and that. The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become a well whipped and very dead horse. Capt Robert B C&C 32 NY |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
I believe I have been seeing his posts for a couple of years now and
think I have pieced together a general idea what happened. First of all the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a replacement. Then he had a lot of trouble with broken valves, rust and I think I remember a cracked head. These symptoms seem to indicate water flooding which would mean that the installer screwed up the exhaust system too. I think this guy's beef should be with the installer rather than FP. FP has bent over backwards to help. Bobsprit wrote: I thought that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring field! This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months. While a few companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service, I've learned that sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda even tried to resolve the problem and posted a response. They claim improper installation and so on. We'll never no the whole story, unless we all visit the boat or see detailed pics. The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and spin stories this way and that. The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become a well whipped and very dead horse. Capt Robert B C&C 32 NY -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Well Bobsprit, you seem to act like you know what's been going on with
my litigation and clearly you don't. I spend 8 months of the year cruising and have just returned. When I did return I found that comments from other disgruntled owners were being attributed to me via the staff of Fischer Panda. That didn't make me happy. At the same time Fischer Panda finally lost their attempt to change the jurisdiction of the law suit to FL. They wanted to fight this case on their turf where the lemon laws are much milder, despite the fact that they have multiple dealers in RI where I had the unit installed. I wasn't present at the hearing, but I was told that the judge almost laughed their lawyer out of court. Anyhow, all that I've ever wanted out of my suit was to make me whole. This unit has been a lemon since day 1, and all that I originally asked for was a replacement generator. They refused. Then I kept investing more $ into the litigation and under RI law I am entitled to have those costs reimbursed. FP came back and offered to replace the generator with units which were not acceptable to me for a lot of reasons (none of which I feel compelled to debate here) but offered nothing for the legal fees. Oh, and by the way, I also had to delete any comments about them from the Internet. I said "no way" as at that time I could have bought 2 generators with my legal fees. Finally I made one more attempt to settle this thing out of court. I was ignored, so I bumped up my pressure and created the www.FischerPandaSucks.com web site. I must admit that I expected more input from other owners, but most seem to have chosen to not participate. I can understand, but I know from e-mail and personal contacts that lots of other people are having similar problems. However, over 600 people have visited the site in the past week. As far as me being a nut case, I'm far from that. I'll be one of the first people to defend a company whose equipment works well. But I also feel the need to let people know what doesn't work. I'm the ex-CEO of New Enland's largest ISP before it was merged into a large telecom company. Since then I've sailed over 20,000 miles and plan to head out on a circumnavigation in January. I have the financial wherewithal and technical ability to carry out such a campaign. I certainly wish that others did too as I believe that we'd have a lot less shoddy products on the market. I have never stated that ALL Fischer Panda products are bad...just the version that I own. My goal as an Internet CEO was to produce the highest quality product that we could. We had multiple Internet news groups of which I was a regular participant. When something didn't work I acknowledged it and discussed what was necessary to fix it. Everything that people asked for wasn't pssible, but I didn't try to run away or hide from the problems. I wanted the best product available. I've been attacked for my approach, but I have to remember that this is unfortuantely so very common on the Internet. The Internet has allowed the wimps of the world to anonymously belittle the people who do try to change things. These are the people who would rather take one up the tailpipe than fight. I'm not one of them. So, I'm sorry if I've wasted your precious bandwidth by clogging up this news group with my opinions. But you know what? I've learned to skip articles that aren't of interest to me. So instead of attacking me, why don't you skip over the posts that you aren't interested in and provide some constructive feedback in the ones that you are. -- Geoff www.geoffschultz.org www.FischerPandaSucks.com (Bobsprit) wrote in : I thought that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring field! This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months. While a few companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service, I've learned that sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda even tried to resolve the problem and posted a response. They claim improper installation and so on. We'll never no the whole story, unless we all visit the boat or see detailed pics. The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and spin stories this way and that. The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become a well whipped and very dead horse. Capt Robert B C&C 32 NY |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Sorry, skipping over the posts that don't interest me does little
to recover the wasted bandwidth. It has already been wasted. As an ex-CEO of an ISP company you, of course, know this. But then, how many CEOs actually know much about the technical end of what their company does? After leaving and cruising for a year, I get back online only to discover that this tired thread is still rambling on. Get your old generator off of your boat, get a new one, and get on with the important part of why most of us own a boat! And most importantly, GET A LIFE! I suspect that by now FP has gathered enough missinformation to slap you with a libel suit when the time is right. Doug "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 9.17... Well Bobsprit, you seem to act like you know what's been going on with my litigation and clearly you don't. I spend 8 months of the year cruising and have just returned. When I did return I found that comments from other disgruntled owners were being attributed to me via the staff of Fischer Panda. That didn't make me happy. At the same time Fischer Panda finally lost their attempt to change the jurisdiction of the law suit to FL. They wanted to fight this case on their turf where the lemon laws are much milder, despite the fact that they have multiple dealers in RI where I had the unit installed. I wasn't present at the hearing, but I was told that the judge almost laughed their lawyer out of court. Anyhow, all that I've ever wanted out of my suit was to make me whole. This unit has been a lemon since day 1, and all that I originally asked for was a replacement generator. They refused. Then I kept investing more $ into the litigation and under RI law I am entitled to have those costs reimbursed. FP came back and offered to replace the generator with units which were not acceptable to me for a lot of reasons (none of which I feel compelled to debate here) but offered nothing for the legal fees. Oh, and by the way, I also had to delete any comments about them from the Internet. I said "no way" as at that time I could have bought 2 generators with my legal fees. Finally I made one more attempt to settle this thing out of court. I was ignored, so I bumped up my pressure and created the www.FischerPandaSucks.com web site. I must admit that I expected more input from other owners, but most seem to have chosen to not participate. I can understand, but I know from e-mail and personal contacts that lots of other people are having similar problems. However, over 600 people have visited the site in the past week. As far as me being a nut case, I'm far from that. I'll be one of the first people to defend a company whose equipment works well. But I also feel the need to let people know what doesn't work. I'm the ex-CEO of New Enland's largest ISP before it was merged into a large telecom company. Since then I've sailed over 20,000 miles and plan to head out on a circumnavigation in January. I have the financial wherewithal and technical ability to carry out such a campaign. I certainly wish that others did too as I believe that we'd have a lot less shoddy products on the market. I have never stated that ALL Fischer Panda products are bad...just the version that I own. My goal as an Internet CEO was to produce the highest quality product that we could. We had multiple Internet news groups of which I was a regular participant. When something didn't work I acknowledged it and discussed what was necessary to fix it. Everything that people asked for wasn't pssible, but I didn't try to run away or hide from the problems. I wanted the best product available. I've been attacked for my approach, but I have to remember that this is unfortuantely so very common on the Internet. The Internet has allowed the wimps of the world to anonymously belittle the people who do try to change things. These are the people who would rather take one up the tailpipe than fight. I'm not one of them. So, I'm sorry if I've wasted your precious bandwidth by clogging up this news group with my opinions. But you know what? I've learned to skip articles that aren't of interest to me. So instead of attacking me, why don't you skip over the posts that you aren't interested in and provide some constructive feedback in the ones that you are. -- Geoff www.geoffschultz.org www.FischerPandaSucks.com (Bobsprit) wrote in : I thought that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring field! This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months. While a few companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service, I've learned that sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda even tried to resolve the problem and posted a response. They claim improper installation and so on. We'll never no the whole story, unless we all visit the boat or see detailed pics. The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and spin stories this way and that. The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become a well whipped and very dead horse. Capt Robert B C&C 32 NY |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
First of all
the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a replacement. Good lord. Yes, I seem to remember reading that as well. But I especially like his comments, such as the one about few responses to his website, yet he "knows" many people are having problems. I wonder why they won't join his campaign. His comments about "shoddy products" is indicative of a paranoid nature. There are rarely "shoddy products" in the marine industry. There's no money in it. Perhaps he meant to say that there's flawed products out there? I hope he and FP can come to some agreement, though his adversarial stance makes that unlikely. Now if someone would take Hunter to court for making ugly sailboats, then we'll be getting somewhere! RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Quite often when I read the replies I feel like I'm playing that kids
game where you tell someone a story and they repeat it to the person behind them, etc, etc and when the story gets to the end of the line it bears little resemblance to what happened. And its for this reason that I don't want to keep discussing point issues. I also have to laugh about the legal and mental health advice being issued. In the following post we have bobsprit claiming that I have a "paranoid nature" because I believe that there are some shoddy marine products out there! Oh my! I guess I should claim that Bob suffers from delusional tenancies if he doesn't believe that! :-) I also had Doug Dotson claiming that I may be making libelous statements about Fischer Panda. The definition of libel is "A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation." I can assure you that I've been very careful to make sure that all of my comments are completely true to the best of my knowledge. Basically I've presented the history of my ownership as well as observations related to Fischer Panda's response. While these statements may damage their reputation, they're based upon the truth and thus aren't libelous. I can assure you that I'm not having fun with this, but I'm heavily vested in this. The general problem is that companies can outspend the little guy in court and most of these things just go away because people don't have the financial ability to see them through. This is a case of where they ran into the wrong guy. Personally I like to see the little guy challenge the corporations and hopefully win. As I've said over and over, I'm not doing this for personal gain, I just want to be made whole again. If RI law didn't provide for this I probably wouldn't have pursued it. The only people who are making out in this are the lawyers. -- Geoff (Bobsprit) wrote in : First of all the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a replacement. Good lord. Yes, I seem to remember reading that as well. But I especially like his comments, such as the one about few responses to his website, yet he "knows" many people are having problems. I wonder why they won't join his campaign. His comments about "shoddy products" is indicative of a paranoid nature. There are rarely "shoddy products" in the marine industry. There's no money in it. Perhaps he meant to say that there's flawed products out there? I hope he and FP can come to some agreement, though his adversarial stance makes that unlikely. Now if someone would take Hunter to court for making ugly sailboats, then we'll be getting somewhere! RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
First of all
the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a replacement. Good lord. Yes, I seem to remember reading that as well. But I especially like his comments, such as the one about few responses to his website, yet he "knows" many people are having problems. I wonder why they won't join his campaign. His comments about "shoddy products" is indicative of a paranoid nature. There are rarely "shoddy products" in the marine industry. There's no money in it. Perhaps he meant to say that there's flawed products out there? I hope he and FP can come to some agreement, though his adversarial stance makes that unlikely. Now if someone would take Hunter to court for making ugly sailboats, then we'll be getting somewhere! RB Come on, Bob. Everyone over in ASA is aware that you know very little and are a novice when it comes to all things boat-related. Over here you sound like a corporate shill for FP. You really should add a legend to the bottom of your posts saying that the views expressed are the author's only and the author usually doesn't know what he is talking about. |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Usenet was never intended to look like your average boat
magazine.....a sales brochure. Thank you for posting your problems with Fischer Panda. The guys slamming you are regulars that have been here for years and have no regards for the thousands of lurkers who come and go that never post anything because of shyness or a fear of being slammed against the chart table by the posters who've been here for years. That guy who started watching this newsgroup 2 weeks ago, I'm sure, would thank you for posting here if he dared absorb the wrath of your detractors. He sits silently at his terminal saying, "God I'm glad I don't have one of those gensets." You've done him a great service. Let 'em bitch. It rolls right off. This newsgroup is OPINIONS and everyone is entitled to theirs. Those loyal to the company, a phenomenon that has always fascinated me because it's rediculous, those employed by the company (especially those who are provocateurs attacking company critics as part of their jobs on usenet) will continue their relentless attacks on anyone to posts something you'd never see in a boat magazine....the sales brochure with the rosey glasses.... If not here, where else would they find out YOUR OPINION or mine..... Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Despite all the slamming and flaming I, for one, appreciate the information
from Bob. I looked at pretty much every generator on the market and ended up with the FP4200 plus because it was the only one that would fit in the space available. It now has about 50 hours on it and has performed well. I was surprised to learn that the generator itself is raw water cooled while the engine is freshwater cooled. Also didn't realize until after I had the unit that there is no battery charging capability in the genset. The installation instructions left alot to be desired and FP said they are in the process of correcting that. I also get the feeling that they are working on re-designing several of their gensets. Thanks, Jay |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Geoff,
Good luck in your campaign and I hope you have success with it. Ignore the rantings of so-called "Capt RB" Bobsprit. He is neither a captain nor an experienced sailor, but rather a well-known and annoying usenet troll. He usually posts in alt.sailing.asa and his experience is limited to several years sailing a few miles from his marina on City Island, NY. He talks a lot, but will quickly reveal his ignorance on any topic of substance. Please let us know how your trials and tribulations with FP turn out. There are several other marine product suppliers that should get the same treatment. I think over time widespread dissemination of information, both positive and negative, will drown out the misleading noise of people like RB and force manufacturers to adhere to higher standards of customer service. Those that do well should be praised and manufacturers should strive for this. Those that produce inferior products and mislead customers shoudld be exposed. |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Doug Dotson wrote:
Sorry, skipping over the posts that don't interest me does little to recover the wasted bandwidth. It has already been wasted. As an ex-CEO of an ISP company you, of course, know this. This is incorrect. Don't download or open the thread and "presto" bandwith saved. But then, how many CEOs actually know much about the technical end of what their company does? This is ignorant. It is a completely misinformed assumption to state that CEOs don't know the technical side of their products. I suspect that by now FP has gathered enough missinformation to slap you with a libel suit when the time is right. This is just plain funny. The truth is an absolute defense. Doug, you should let the marketplace of information run without interfering. If you don't care, don't tune in. I, for one, like to see a manufacturer held to account. |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:49:23 GMT, "Geoffrey W. Schultz"
wrote: e Oh my! I guess I should claim that Bob suffers from delusional tenancies Bob thinks he's a landlord? (Bobsprit) wrote in : |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
I, for one, like to see a manufacturer held
to account. Yes, but not when we don't have access to the facts. We don't and unless someone finds out about the ACTUAL original installation, we won't. The idea that FP should be blamed by default is unfare. RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Good luck in your campaign and I hope you have success with it. Ignore the
rantings of so-called "Capt RB" Bobsprit. Hey, Skitch. This is not alt.sailing.asa. Why not keep the talk serious here? RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Those that
produce inferior products and mislead customers shoudld be exposed. Only if there is REAL proof that said products exist. NOT because we "read it on the web." RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Good luck in your campaign and I hope you have success with it.
Why wish him luck when you don't truly know who's to blame? RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Good luck in your campaign and I hope you have success with it. Ignore the
rantings of so-called "Capt RB" Bobsprit. Hey, Skitch. This is not alt.sailing.asa. Why not keep the talk serious here? I was. |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Those that
produce inferior products and mislead customers shoudld be exposed. Only if there is REAL proof that said products exist. NOT because we "read it on the web." You misunderstand the point. There has been no way to effectively spread information among consumers and potential consumers in the past. Magazines (with PS as an exception) cater to their advertisers and would not say anything significantly bad about an advertiser. What is needed is a forum to spread the word - this is the principle the first amendment is based on. Let customers talk and everyone can take away what they want. Most who have done their homework and have some experience will be able to factor the credibility of the source into their decision-making. Speaking of credibility of sources, why are you here defending FP when you have little info about their products while over in ASA you post about your perceptions of the "quality" of all sorts of things? |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
We will never find out what happened. In
particular, we will never know whether the product was or was not defective. Which is my whole point. Some elements of the fellows story sound odd to say the least. RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
e Oh my! I guess I should claim that Bob suffers
from delusional tenancies Bob thinks he's a landlord? Exactly! RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Speaking of credibility of sources, why are
you here defending FP when you have little info about their products while over in ASA you post about your perceptions of the "quality" of all sorts of things? I wasn't defending them. I just think they shouldn't be assumed guilty just because they're a BIG company. This fellow is telling us a story. He's attacking a company, attempting to damage their rep. There is NO proof that they are at fault. None at all. I don't see FP attacking him or his business practices/character. I hope the problem is resolved soon! RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
Speaking of credibility of sources, why are
you here defending FP when you have little info about their products while over in ASA you post about your perceptions of the "quality" of all sorts of things? I wasn't defending them. I just think they shouldn't be assumed guilty just because they're a BIG company. This fellow is telling us a story. He's attacking a company, attempting to damage their rep. There is NO proof that they are at fault. None at all. I don't see FP attacking him or his business practices/character. I hope the problem is resolved soon! RB No one is assuming they are guilty, but they spend money to say all kinds of good things about their products in things you and I read. Why not let folks have a forum to say bad things about them if they feel strongly enough. You certainly seem to be defending them. If not, why would you attack Schultz for attacking FP? They can take care of themselves. |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
No one is assuming they are guilty, but they spend money to say all kinds of
good things about their products in things you and I read. Why not let folks have a forum to say bad things about them if they feel strongly enough. You certainly seem to be defending them. There is a forum and he has legal recourse. Obviously, his retread of the subject has tired a few people. Of course he's within his rights to comment on a product and company. And I'm within my rights to doubt elements of his story and state as much. RB |
You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
"SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... Doug Dotson wrote: Sorry, skipping over the posts that don't interest me does little to recover the wasted bandwidth. It has already been wasted. As an ex-CEO of an ISP company you, of course, know this. This is incorrect. Don't download or open the thread and "presto" bandwith saved. Hard to tell something is not worth readin until you start to read it. The subject line statys the same with each port so you have no clue until you open the post. But then, how many CEOs actually know much about the technical end of what their company does? This is ignorant. It is a completely misinformed assumption to state that CEOs don't know the technical side of their products. I can only speak from personal experience. Others experiences may vary. I suspect that by now FP has gathered enough missinformation to slap you with a libel suit when the time is right. This is just plain funny. The truth is an absolute defense. It's just that so many contradictary statements have been made by all sides that is is hard to believe that they are all accurate. Doug, you should let the marketplace of information run without interfering. If you don't care, don't tune in. I, for one, like to see a manufacturer held to account. They can be held accountable without broadcasting everything in a newsgroup. Nuff said. I've said all I care to. I didn't intend to get sucked into this discussion. Must have had a brief lapse of sanity. Doug |
Opening posts to see if they are of interest was You are all wrong about the Fischer Panda author
"Doug Dotson" wrote:
"SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... Doug Dotson wrote: Sorry, skipping over the posts that don't interest me does little to recover the wasted bandwidth. It has already been wasted. As an ex-CEO of an ISP company you, of course, know this. This is incorrect. Don't download or open the thread and "presto" bandwith saved. Hard to tell something is not worth readin until you start to read it. The subject line statys the same with each port so you have no clue until you open the post. Not really true. I often put a delete filter on whole subject lines. So all you'd have to do is filter on Panda and you wouldn't get any posts about that topic. Sometimes I set the filter with an expiration of 30 days of inactivity. That is when there have been no posts with that subject or word in the subject line for 30 days then the filter expires on its own. As a general rule, I figure that any time a subject has more than 40 or 50 posts in it, then it is probably so far off topic that it isn't of interest anymore. I also flag to watch or delete certain people. grandma Rosalie |
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