Rick Morel wrote:

I've come to agree that smaller is better. How small? Well, guess it's
up to the person or persons.
SNIP

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:43:28 GMT, Don W
wrote:

Interesting post Rick. I'd never get my wife to
go cruising in our Catalina 27, and she thinks the
Irwin 38 is too small. For myself, I think the 38
is ok for two people, but crowed for three or
four. To each their own I guess. Also, it
depends on how long you are out for.

Don W.

Thanks Don. I think...

In each case I mentioned there was no set time limit. Well the first
sorta' was. Back then by the time one turned 18 there was a choice of
continue education and get a deferment, join the military or shortly
get drafted. Not to get political, but I think one of the worst things
that happened in this country was shutting down the draft.


Yes, to each their own. But honestly, how much space does one really
require? Another thing to think about is how that limited space is set
up. For instance a place to sleep. Very important. If you have to
squeeze in and contort life ain't gonna be pleasant. If it's hard
and/or wet a lot life ain't gonna be pleasant. One boat comes to mind.
An S2 30-ft center cockpit. The aft cabin and passage way back is
"hunkered over" headroom. Minus #1. The berth is pretty comfy but, and
a big BUT, it's crosswise. So that means the aft person has to get in
first and out last, or crawl over the forward person. Minus #2. Both
sound kind of minor and are if we're talking a weekend or vacation
cruise, but try it day in and day out. On the other hand, the
Coronado had a KING-SIZE aft berth and jumping-jack headroom. As
mentioned before the Morgan has an adequate sized vee-berth with good
cushions and our memory foam pad will be put on it when we sail off.
We've spend 2 years worth of 3-day weekends, plus the night before,
aboard quite comfortably. The Southcoast 22 also had a 2-adult sized
vee-berth that did fine for a year. The king-size Coronado berth
really was no better. Just bigger which actually was a disadvantage
heeled over in rough seas. Think about it. One more thing. It seems
the manufacturers think it a big selling point to sleep many. The
Morgan stock sleeps 7. Now other than the space this takes up, where
in heck are you going to put 7 people on a 30-foot boat when they're
not sleeping?

In the stateroom, bedroom, sleeping area, whatever you want to call
it, you do need some drawers and an adequate size hanging locker. How
much depends upon your fashion tastes. If you really-really-really
need that walk-in closet at home with the 150-shoe rack, then you're
gonna need a bigger boat. Seriously, if you have to live out of a
duffel bag it's going to get old pretty fast (well, not to some, but
to most). We actually passed on buying one 33-footer because the two
hanging lockers were each about 8-inches wide!


Ya gotta eat. So that means you have to have a place to keep the food,
prepare and cook it. And something with which to cook it. A stove with
oven beats the heck out of a stove-top only. A gimbaled one with rails
and clamps beats a fixed one. I've left soup cooking on its own, in a
pressure cooker with the pressure thingy off, in 10-ft seas on the
latter. Oh yes, propane is the way to go. A microwave is nice. Yes it
takes about 100-AMPS at 12V from the inverter to run it, but it
doesn't run that long, so figure 10 to 20 AMP-Hours max per "cook".

Sufficient counter-top space. Actually kind of hard to obtain, but
then that's the complaint in a lot of houses. A deep sink. Stowage for
pots and pans that you don't have to kneel down and dig every time.
Why is it in these cases what you want is always waaaay back at the
bottom of the pile? How many of said pots and pans do you really need
and use? I've seen folks with four sizes of skillets for different
things. Par that down to just one, or maybe two? Enough cabinet for
the food-stuffs you're going to use in the next few days. Enough
stowage for food you're going to use in the next ???? days, months. If
you're like us and like to go off into the wilds for months at a time
it takes a lot, but not nearly as much as most folks think. We could
cram about a year's worth under the vee-berth for two average folks.
This of couse assuming you like or can live with things that survive
at room temperature - canned, rice, dried beans, pasta. Amazing how
one can learn to spiff up stuff from a can so that's it's a bit more
then edible and sometimes pretty good. Again, to each his/her own. A
hint: Crisco is the same thing as margerine without the yellow color.
It, and margerine for that matter, will keep well at room temperature.
So will fresh eggs if you turn them once a day. Other than room
temperture I've become spoiled by a fridge. Had an icebox conversion
in the Coronado and plan to do the same in the Morgan. This takes up
less space. A stand-alone wouldn't be bad either if one has the space,
and it should be able to be found. Then one can use the icebox for
food or other stowage. In either case, space is limited so after a
while you will run out of things that need to be kept cold until the
next grocery stop. Of course that leaves more room for the fish and
stuff you catch. Anyway, all are doable in most cases.

A place to consume all that conveniently prepared food. It gets old
very fast to most folks to have to balance a plate, glass and stuff
while crouched on a settee; or trying to use a table that has to be
lowered or raised each time and is more designed to fit the mast or
bulkhead than a couple of adult human's tableware. Some kind of fixed
dinette arrangement is really a must. Just plop the plates and stuff
down, sit and proceed. It's okay if it's convertable to a berth for
those rare guests, but when the table is a table it has to be SOLID.
It's also useful for sitting and reading with coffee, or rum n coke,
working/playing on the laptop, carving beautiful scrimshaw, rebuilding
the waterpump, whatever.

Okay, after comfortably preparing and consuming all that good food the
time will come when you have to clean up and get rid of some of it. We
found the best way, for us, is to have a raw water faucet in the
galley and head. We washed dishes and first-rinsed with raw, then
rinsed with fresh. Now we come to the head. Pretty much okay as it
comes. If you have a not-energy-wastful way to run the waterheater
while away from a marina, that's good. We really didn't on the
Coronado. Got a Solar Shower Bag and extended the hose. If sunny
heated the water that way; if not or in a hurry heated some water on
the stove. Hung it up and used it in the shower. Worked fine. BTW, you
can FORGET about those nice, long showers except when at a marina with
showers. Well, unless you have a really big boat and spend a lot of
time getting water or have a large watermaker and don't mind the fuel
cost to run it. As an aside, we did have a "nice long" shower
arrangement on the tiny Southcoast. I took one of those round,
galvanized washtubs (we had room to stow it under the cockpit and it
never did rust much), a square frame made of pipe, a hose and shower
head mounted to the pipe, a shower curtain and a small bilge pump.
Hang the pipe/showerhead/curtain from the boom, either over the hatch
or cockpit; put the washtub under with a gallon or so of stove-heated
water. Step inside and turn on the bilge pump. Viola! A recirculating
shower. Sure, the water does get soapy but not really that much unless
you go really crazy with the soap. Hmmmm... Might do a variation of
that in the morgan. put a Y-valve to select overboard/shower on the
sump pump. Do a final rinse with fresh.

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve. Once
someone asked us what we missed most about living ashore. My ex said,
"Not moving!", meaning of course the motion of the boat, not moving
from place to place. My answer was, "Being able to waste water!" There
are other things of course, but these were the honest number ONE for
each of us.

There are five basic ways to get water: Tank up while fueling at a
marina (most won't allow you to tie up and top off your water tank
without topping off the fuel); Dinghy in with jerry cans and find some
somewhere; Buy it from the dock (you have to do this in some countries
even if you do fuel up);Some arrangement to collect rainwater (Not too
reliable); Make your own from what you floating in. This is my choice.
It is so wonderfull to not have to worry about running out or have to
spend sometimes days to get to a source. Again, we are
out-of-the-way-spend-months-there folks. To me a watermaker is worth
it's weight in gold. Good thing because they certainly seem to be
priced that way! Somewhere in the archives here should be a long piece
I wrote about it, but suffice now to say rig up a silty water
arrangement, size it so it runs a few hours a day, and no mater where
you are and what kind of water you're floating in, top your water
tank(s). You still have to conserve water - you don't want to run the
thing 24/7 to keep up. Of course on a big boat with no concern for
energy conservation you can do it. IOW, if you're a member of the
$10,000-a-month crowd.

Finally (Is it about time? I seem to get a bit windy, don't I?), you
have to have an energy source. Others and myself have covered this,
but basically you take how many AMPS each thing draws and multiply by
the number of hours a day they're used. Add it all up and you have how
many AMP-hours you need. Size your house bank to be able to supply it
for 3 or 4 days. Run your engine daily to put it back or get sufficent
solar panels to put it back daily. If you have room. Depending on
where you are and the cloud cover or lack thereof, the AMP-hour output
of the solar will be the Wattage divided by 4, 3 or 2. Figure on 4
for worse case.

Yes, if you live aboard and especially live on the hook, there are
things in life you have to give up. But you also gain a lot more.
Maybe. The trick is to find what works for you and yours. If half of
the couple is doing it because the other half wants two, it'll turn
out really bad. No ifs, ands or buts. Well unless she or maybe even he
in those rare cases is a saint. If you've never really spend a lot
time aboard, do what you can, charter, borrow, whatever and try to
spend a couple weeks or preferably a month living aboard away from the
dock. If you return home with the urge to cruise make THE PlAN. If
either or both of you are so relieved to get back home you're in a
state of euphoria, then maybe life ashore with weekends aboard is the
life for you.

We're all different. Our choice of an ideal floating home is about a
75-foot motor yacht with all the bells and whistles, capable of
crossing oceans. That ain't gonna happen, buddy! Not unless we win the
lottery. Chances of that are 1 in 45-million. If you buy a ticket. Our
chances are 0 in infinity because it ain't worth the buck with those
odds. The small boat we got. The suitcase full of money. Well not
quite. But I've done it before and I can do it again, by golly!

Rick

Rick Morel wrote:


Yes, to each their own. But honestly, how much space does one really
require? Another thing to think about is how that limited space is set
up.

Actually, adequate storage space for the "stuff"
as well as the boat equipment is the primary issue
for us.

For instance a place to sleep. Very important.
If you have to
squeeze in and contort life ain't gonna be pleasant. If it's hard
and/or wet a lot life ain't gonna be pleasant.

Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.

It seems
the manufacturers think it a big selling point to sleep many. The
Morgan stock sleeps 7. Now other than the space this takes up, where
in heck are you going to put 7 people on a 30-foot boat when they're
not sleeping?

Tell me about it. I'd rather have a boat that
sleeps four and has lots of well thought out
storage. But they don't make them like that.

Ya gotta eat. So that means you have to have a place to keep the food,
prepare and cook it. And something with which to cook it. A stove with
oven beats the heck out of a stove-top only. A gimbaled one with rails
and clamps beats a fixed one. I've left soup cooking on its own, in a
pressure cooker with the pressure thingy off, in 10-ft seas on the
latter. Oh yes, propane is the way to go. A microwave is nice. Yes it
takes about 100-AMPS at 12V from the inverter to run it, but it
doesn't run that long, so figure 10 to 20 AMP-Hours max per "cook".

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave. We would plan on
running the (very quiet) genset when necessary for
cooking. My theory is that fuel for the genset
will be easier to obtain than propane, and that we
will need the same fuel for the outboard anyway.
That way we don't have the possibility of a
propane leak in the cabin. We can dispense with
the propane detector, and just detect CO in the
cabin. We need the CO detector for the main motor
anyway.

Before you tell me that we won't be able to cook
when the genset is on the fritz, let me add that
I'm thinking of having two small 3KW gensets, and
an 110VAC generator slaved off of the propellor.
shaft to allow for cooking while underway without
using the genset.

This is still in the idea stage, so if you feel
I'm overlooking something please tell me.

Sufficient counter-top space. Actually kind of hard to obtain

That's one reason for the flat electric stovetop.
When the gimbal is locked it is just additional
counterspace. Right now we put a cutting board
over the Gas stovetop to get the same thing.

At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)


Had an icebox conversion
in the Coronado and plan to do the same in the Morgan. This takes up
less space. A stand-alone wouldn't be bad either if one has the space,
and it should be able to be found. Then one can use the icebox for
food or other stowage. In either case, space is limited so after a
while you will run out of things that need to be kept cold until the
next grocery stop. Of course that leaves more room for the fish and
stuff you catch. Anyway, all are doable in most cases.

Agreed. We've got a toploader fridge/freezer in
the Irwin right now. UGH! As soon as you pull
something out to use it, the other stuff falls
into the vacated space if the boat is moving
around at all. I've got to make some little
dividers or something...

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve. Once
someone asked us what we missed most about living ashore. My ex said,
"Not moving!", meaning of course the motion of the boat, not moving
from place to place. My answer was, "Being able to waste water!" There
are other things of course, but these were the honest number ONE for
each of us.

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.

To me a watermaker is worth
it's weight in gold. Good thing because they certainly seem to be
priced that way! snip

Agreed.

You still have to conserve water - you don't want to run the
thing 24/7 to keep up. Of course on a big boat with no concern for
energy conservation you can do it. IOW, if you're a member of the
$10,000-a-month crowd.

Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)

Finally (Is it about time? I seem to get a bit windy, don't I?), you
have to have an energy source.

We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.

Yes, if you live aboard and especially live on the hook, there are
things in life you have to give up. But you also gain a lot more.
Maybe. The trick is to find what works for you and yours. If half of
the couple is doing it because the other half wants two, it'll turn
out really bad. No ifs, ands or buts. Well unless she or maybe even he
in those rare cases is a saint. If you've never really spend a lot
time aboard, do what you can, charter, borrow, whatever and try to
spend a couple weeks or preferably a month living aboard away from the
dock. If you return home with the urge to cruise make THE PlAN. If
either or both of you are so relieved to get back home you're in a
state of euphoria, then maybe life ashore with weekends aboard is the
life for you.

We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

We're all different. Our choice of an ideal floating home is about a
75-foot motor yacht with all the bells and whistles, capable of
crossing oceans.

Make mine a 125 footer that will do 35kts and
carries a 23' tender you can water ski behind
Oh yeah, and a big offshore bank account to wire
the fuel money from. Nah... I think that would
spoil everything.

That ain't gonna happen, buddy! Not unless we win the
lottery. Chances of that are 1 in 45-million. If you buy a ticket. Our
chances are 0 in infinity because it ain't worth the buck with those
odds. The small boat we got. The suitcase full of money. Well not
quite. But I've done it before and I can do it again, by golly!

I like your attitude.

Rick

Don W.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:42:55 -0600, Don W
wrote:

Actually, adequate storage space for the "stuff"
as well as the boat equipment is the primary issue
for us.

And an issue it will always be and always has. Seriously, there's more
than we think, but it usually requires some wood butchery. Also, we
tend to bring along a lot more stuff than we need or even really want.
With the exception of spares for the engine and such and _REQUIRED_
tools, if you haven't used it in 6 months, a year max, get rid of it!
After almost a year on the Coronado we unloaded 3, that is THREE,
pickup truck loads of stuff we never used and in some cases forgot
existed. Back to tools. Make sure you have every size socket you may
need, along with box/open ends, etc. I got rid of an entire toolbox
full. Why did I have torx drivers when there wasn't one torx head on
the vessel? Duhhhhh....


Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.

Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave. We would plan on
running the (very quiet) genset when necessary for
cooking. SNIP

Before you tell me that we won't be able to cook
when the genset is on the fritz, let me add that
I'm thinking of having two small 3KW gensets, and
an 110VAC generator slaved off of the propellor.
shaft to allow for cooking while underway without
using the genset.

This is still in the idea stage, so if you feel
I'm overlooking something please tell me.

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.
As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook. That's 3 times the fuel. Using
the efficency figures above it comes out to 6.5 times as much, which I
think might be accurate.

The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.


At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)

I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Had an icebox conversion

Agreed. We've got a toploader fridge/freezer in
the Irwin right now. UGH! As soon as you pull
something out to use it, the other stuff falls
into the vacated space if the boat is moving
around at all. I've got to make some little
dividers or something...

Hee-hee. Laughing because been there, done that. The close to it
answer was a couple of sliding grill shelves and stuff placement.
Still better energy-wise though with top loading. Takes up a lot of
room, but a friend's Beneteu (SP?) had a long, shallow built in frige
and freezer. Oh well, one can expect some convenience aboard a
$300,000 boat!



Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.

A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.

Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)

Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.


That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy! When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries. Gave be 34 KWH. Sounds like an
awful lot, doesn't it? Well 1 gallon of gasoline will yield 34.5 KWH
if you do the BTU to KWH conversion. Of course if your gasoline engine
and generator on the 3 KW genset were 100% efficient you could run it
a bit over 10 hours instead of 3. Because of the efficiency of the
electric motor in the car, I got about 120 miles from that electrical
"gallon" of battery. Works out pretty close to the propane stove vs.
genset/electric stove stuff above.


Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.


We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.

I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.



We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Rick