Rick Morel wrote:

I've come to agree that smaller is better. How small? Well, guess it's
up to the person or persons.
SNIP

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:43:28 GMT, Don W
wrote:

Interesting post Rick. I'd never get my wife to
go cruising in our Catalina 27, and she thinks the
Irwin 38 is too small. For myself, I think the 38
is ok for two people, but crowed for three or
four. To each their own I guess. Also, it
depends on how long you are out for.

Don W.

Thanks Don. I think...

In each case I mentioned there was no set time limit. Well the first
sorta' was. Back then by the time one turned 18 there was a choice of
continue education and get a deferment, join the military or shortly
get drafted. Not to get political, but I think one of the worst things
that happened in this country was shutting down the draft.


Yes, to each their own. But honestly, how much space does one really
require? Another thing to think about is how that limited space is set
up. For instance a place to sleep. Very important. If you have to
squeeze in and contort life ain't gonna be pleasant. If it's hard
and/or wet a lot life ain't gonna be pleasant. One boat comes to mind.
An S2 30-ft center cockpit. The aft cabin and passage way back is
"hunkered over" headroom. Minus #1. The berth is pretty comfy but, and
a big BUT, it's crosswise. So that means the aft person has to get in
first and out last, or crawl over the forward person. Minus #2. Both
sound kind of minor and are if we're talking a weekend or vacation
cruise, but try it day in and day out. On the other hand, the
Coronado had a KING-SIZE aft berth and jumping-jack headroom. As
mentioned before the Morgan has an adequate sized vee-berth with good
cushions and our memory foam pad will be put on it when we sail off.
We've spend 2 years worth of 3-day weekends, plus the night before,
aboard quite comfortably. The Southcoast 22 also had a 2-adult sized
vee-berth that did fine for a year. The king-size Coronado berth
really was no better. Just bigger which actually was a disadvantage
heeled over in rough seas. Think about it. One more thing. It seems
the manufacturers think it a big selling point to sleep many. The
Morgan stock sleeps 7. Now other than the space this takes up, where
in heck are you going to put 7 people on a 30-foot boat when they're
not sleeping?

In the stateroom, bedroom, sleeping area, whatever you want to call
it, you do need some drawers and an adequate size hanging locker. How
much depends upon your fashion tastes. If you really-really-really
need that walk-in closet at home with the 150-shoe rack, then you're
gonna need a bigger boat. Seriously, if you have to live out of a
duffel bag it's going to get old pretty fast (well, not to some, but
to most). We actually passed on buying one 33-footer because the two
hanging lockers were each about 8-inches wide!


Ya gotta eat. So that means you have to have a place to keep the food,
prepare and cook it. And something with which to cook it. A stove with
oven beats the heck out of a stove-top only. A gimbaled one with rails
and clamps beats a fixed one. I've left soup cooking on its own, in a
pressure cooker with the pressure thingy off, in 10-ft seas on the
latter. Oh yes, propane is the way to go. A microwave is nice. Yes it
takes about 100-AMPS at 12V from the inverter to run it, but it
doesn't run that long, so figure 10 to 20 AMP-Hours max per "cook".

Sufficient counter-top space. Actually kind of hard to obtain, but
then that's the complaint in a lot of houses. A deep sink. Stowage for
pots and pans that you don't have to kneel down and dig every time.
Why is it in these cases what you want is always waaaay back at the
bottom of the pile? How many of said pots and pans do you really need
and use? I've seen folks with four sizes of skillets for different
things. Par that down to just one, or maybe two? Enough cabinet for
the food-stuffs you're going to use in the next few days. Enough
stowage for food you're going to use in the next ???? days, months. If
you're like us and like to go off into the wilds for months at a time
it takes a lot, but not nearly as much as most folks think. We could
cram about a year's worth under the vee-berth for two average folks.
This of couse assuming you like or can live with things that survive
at room temperature - canned, rice, dried beans, pasta. Amazing how
one can learn to spiff up stuff from a can so that's it's a bit more
then edible and sometimes pretty good. Again, to each his/her own. A
hint: Crisco is the same thing as margerine without the yellow color.
It, and margerine for that matter, will keep well at room temperature.
So will fresh eggs if you turn them once a day. Other than room
temperture I've become spoiled by a fridge. Had an icebox conversion
in the Coronado and plan to do the same in the Morgan. This takes up
less space. A stand-alone wouldn't be bad either if one has the space,
and it should be able to be found. Then one can use the icebox for
food or other stowage. In either case, space is limited so after a
while you will run out of things that need to be kept cold until the
next grocery stop. Of course that leaves more room for the fish and
stuff you catch. Anyway, all are doable in most cases.

A place to consume all that conveniently prepared food. It gets old
very fast to most folks to have to balance a plate, glass and stuff
while crouched on a settee; or trying to use a table that has to be
lowered or raised each time and is more designed to fit the mast or
bulkhead than a couple of adult human's tableware. Some kind of fixed
dinette arrangement is really a must. Just plop the plates and stuff
down, sit and proceed. It's okay if it's convertable to a berth for
those rare guests, but when the table is a table it has to be SOLID.
It's also useful for sitting and reading with coffee, or rum n coke,
working/playing on the laptop, carving beautiful scrimshaw, rebuilding
the waterpump, whatever.

Okay, after comfortably preparing and consuming all that good food the
time will come when you have to clean up and get rid of some of it. We
found the best way, for us, is to have a raw water faucet in the
galley and head. We washed dishes and first-rinsed with raw, then
rinsed with fresh. Now we come to the head. Pretty much okay as it
comes. If you have a not-energy-wastful way to run the waterheater
while away from a marina, that's good. We really didn't on the
Coronado. Got a Solar Shower Bag and extended the hose. If sunny
heated the water that way; if not or in a hurry heated some water on
the stove. Hung it up and used it in the shower. Worked fine. BTW, you
can FORGET about those nice, long showers except when at a marina with
showers. Well, unless you have a really big boat and spend a lot of
time getting water or have a large watermaker and don't mind the fuel
cost to run it. As an aside, we did have a "nice long" shower
arrangement on the tiny Southcoast. I took one of those round,
galvanized washtubs (we had room to stow it under the cockpit and it
never did rust much), a square frame made of pipe, a hose and shower
head mounted to the pipe, a shower curtain and a small bilge pump.
Hang the pipe/showerhead/curtain from the boom, either over the hatch
or cockpit; put the washtub under with a gallon or so of stove-heated
water. Step inside and turn on the bilge pump. Viola! A recirculating
shower. Sure, the water does get soapy but not really that much unless
you go really crazy with the soap. Hmmmm... Might do a variation of
that in the morgan. put a Y-valve to select overboard/shower on the
sump pump. Do a final rinse with fresh.

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve. Once
someone asked us what we missed most about living ashore. My ex said,
"Not moving!", meaning of course the motion of the boat, not moving
from place to place. My answer was, "Being able to waste water!" There
are other things of course, but these were the honest number ONE for
each of us.

There are five basic ways to get water: Tank up while fueling at a
marina (most won't allow you to tie up and top off your water tank
without topping off the fuel); Dinghy in with jerry cans and find some
somewhere; Buy it from the dock (you have to do this in some countries
even if you do fuel up);Some arrangement to collect rainwater (Not too
reliable); Make your own from what you floating in. This is my choice.
It is so wonderfull to not have to worry about running out or have to
spend sometimes days to get to a source. Again, we are
out-of-the-way-spend-months-there folks. To me a watermaker is worth
it's weight in gold. Good thing because they certainly seem to be
priced that way! Somewhere in the archives here should be a long piece
I wrote about it, but suffice now to say rig up a silty water
arrangement, size it so it runs a few hours a day, and no mater where
you are and what kind of water you're floating in, top your water
tank(s). You still have to conserve water - you don't want to run the
thing 24/7 to keep up. Of course on a big boat with no concern for
energy conservation you can do it. IOW, if you're a member of the
$10,000-a-month crowd.

Finally (Is it about time? I seem to get a bit windy, don't I?), you
have to have an energy source. Others and myself have covered this,
but basically you take how many AMPS each thing draws and multiply by
the number of hours a day they're used. Add it all up and you have how
many AMP-hours you need. Size your house bank to be able to supply it
for 3 or 4 days. Run your engine daily to put it back or get sufficent
solar panels to put it back daily. If you have room. Depending on
where you are and the cloud cover or lack thereof, the AMP-hour output
of the solar will be the Wattage divided by 4, 3 or 2. Figure on 4
for worse case.

Yes, if you live aboard and especially live on the hook, there are
things in life you have to give up. But you also gain a lot more.
Maybe. The trick is to find what works for you and yours. If half of
the couple is doing it because the other half wants two, it'll turn
out really bad. No ifs, ands or buts. Well unless she or maybe even he
in those rare cases is a saint. If you've never really spend a lot
time aboard, do what you can, charter, borrow, whatever and try to
spend a couple weeks or preferably a month living aboard away from the
dock. If you return home with the urge to cruise make THE PlAN. If
either or both of you are so relieved to get back home you're in a
state of euphoria, then maybe life ashore with weekends aboard is the
life for you.

We're all different. Our choice of an ideal floating home is about a
75-foot motor yacht with all the bells and whistles, capable of
crossing oceans. That ain't gonna happen, buddy! Not unless we win the
lottery. Chances of that are 1 in 45-million. If you buy a ticket. Our
chances are 0 in infinity because it ain't worth the buck with those
odds. The small boat we got. The suitcase full of money. Well not
quite. But I've done it before and I can do it again, by golly!

Rick

Rick Morel wrote:


Yes, to each their own. But honestly, how much space does one really
require? Another thing to think about is how that limited space is set
up.

Actually, adequate storage space for the "stuff"
as well as the boat equipment is the primary issue
for us.

For instance a place to sleep. Very important.
If you have to
squeeze in and contort life ain't gonna be pleasant. If it's hard
and/or wet a lot life ain't gonna be pleasant.

Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.

It seems
the manufacturers think it a big selling point to sleep many. The
Morgan stock sleeps 7. Now other than the space this takes up, where
in heck are you going to put 7 people on a 30-foot boat when they're
not sleeping?

Tell me about it. I'd rather have a boat that
sleeps four and has lots of well thought out
storage. But they don't make them like that.

Ya gotta eat. So that means you have to have a place to keep the food,
prepare and cook it. And something with which to cook it. A stove with
oven beats the heck out of a stove-top only. A gimbaled one with rails
and clamps beats a fixed one. I've left soup cooking on its own, in a
pressure cooker with the pressure thingy off, in 10-ft seas on the
latter. Oh yes, propane is the way to go. A microwave is nice. Yes it
takes about 100-AMPS at 12V from the inverter to run it, but it
doesn't run that long, so figure 10 to 20 AMP-Hours max per "cook".

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave. We would plan on
running the (very quiet) genset when necessary for
cooking. My theory is that fuel for the genset
will be easier to obtain than propane, and that we
will need the same fuel for the outboard anyway.
That way we don't have the possibility of a
propane leak in the cabin. We can dispense with
the propane detector, and just detect CO in the
cabin. We need the CO detector for the main motor
anyway.

Before you tell me that we won't be able to cook
when the genset is on the fritz, let me add that
I'm thinking of having two small 3KW gensets, and
an 110VAC generator slaved off of the propellor.
shaft to allow for cooking while underway without
using the genset.

This is still in the idea stage, so if you feel
I'm overlooking something please tell me.

Sufficient counter-top space. Actually kind of hard to obtain

That's one reason for the flat electric stovetop.
When the gimbal is locked it is just additional
counterspace. Right now we put a cutting board
over the Gas stovetop to get the same thing.

At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)


Had an icebox conversion
in the Coronado and plan to do the same in the Morgan. This takes up
less space. A stand-alone wouldn't be bad either if one has the space,
and it should be able to be found. Then one can use the icebox for
food or other stowage. In either case, space is limited so after a
while you will run out of things that need to be kept cold until the
next grocery stop. Of course that leaves more room for the fish and
stuff you catch. Anyway, all are doable in most cases.

Agreed. We've got a toploader fridge/freezer in
the Irwin right now. UGH! As soon as you pull
something out to use it, the other stuff falls
into the vacated space if the boat is moving
around at all. I've got to make some little
dividers or something...

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve. Once
someone asked us what we missed most about living ashore. My ex said,
"Not moving!", meaning of course the motion of the boat, not moving
from place to place. My answer was, "Being able to waste water!" There
are other things of course, but these were the honest number ONE for
each of us.

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.

To me a watermaker is worth
it's weight in gold. Good thing because they certainly seem to be
priced that way! snip

Agreed.

You still have to conserve water - you don't want to run the
thing 24/7 to keep up. Of course on a big boat with no concern for
energy conservation you can do it. IOW, if you're a member of the
$10,000-a-month crowd.

Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)

Finally (Is it about time? I seem to get a bit windy, don't I?), you
have to have an energy source.

We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.

Yes, if you live aboard and especially live on the hook, there are
things in life you have to give up. But you also gain a lot more.
Maybe. The trick is to find what works for you and yours. If half of
the couple is doing it because the other half wants two, it'll turn
out really bad. No ifs, ands or buts. Well unless she or maybe even he
in those rare cases is a saint. If you've never really spend a lot
time aboard, do what you can, charter, borrow, whatever and try to
spend a couple weeks or preferably a month living aboard away from the
dock. If you return home with the urge to cruise make THE PlAN. If
either or both of you are so relieved to get back home you're in a
state of euphoria, then maybe life ashore with weekends aboard is the
life for you.

We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

We're all different. Our choice of an ideal floating home is about a
75-foot motor yacht with all the bells and whistles, capable of
crossing oceans.

Make mine a 125 footer that will do 35kts and
carries a 23' tender you can water ski behind
Oh yeah, and a big offshore bank account to wire
the fuel money from. Nah... I think that would
spoil everything.

That ain't gonna happen, buddy! Not unless we win the
lottery. Chances of that are 1 in 45-million. If you buy a ticket. Our
chances are 0 in infinity because it ain't worth the buck with those
odds. The small boat we got. The suitcase full of money. Well not
quite. But I've done it before and I can do it again, by golly!

I like your attitude.

Rick

Don W.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:42:55 -0600, Don W
wrote:

Actually, adequate storage space for the "stuff"
as well as the boat equipment is the primary issue
for us.

And an issue it will always be and always has. Seriously, there's more
than we think, but it usually requires some wood butchery. Also, we
tend to bring along a lot more stuff than we need or even really want.
With the exception of spares for the engine and such and _REQUIRED_
tools, if you haven't used it in 6 months, a year max, get rid of it!
After almost a year on the Coronado we unloaded 3, that is THREE,
pickup truck loads of stuff we never used and in some cases forgot
existed. Back to tools. Make sure you have every size socket you may
need, along with box/open ends, etc. I got rid of an entire toolbox
full. Why did I have torx drivers when there wasn't one torx head on
the vessel? Duhhhhh....


Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.

Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave. We would plan on
running the (very quiet) genset when necessary for
cooking. SNIP

Before you tell me that we won't be able to cook
when the genset is on the fritz, let me add that
I'm thinking of having two small 3KW gensets, and
an 110VAC generator slaved off of the propellor.
shaft to allow for cooking while underway without
using the genset.

This is still in the idea stage, so if you feel
I'm overlooking something please tell me.

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.
As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook. That's 3 times the fuel. Using
the efficency figures above it comes out to 6.5 times as much, which I
think might be accurate.

The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.


At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)

I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Had an icebox conversion

Agreed. We've got a toploader fridge/freezer in
the Irwin right now. UGH! As soon as you pull
something out to use it, the other stuff falls
into the vacated space if the boat is moving
around at all. I've got to make some little
dividers or something...

Hee-hee. Laughing because been there, done that. The close to it
answer was a couple of sliding grill shelves and stuff placement.
Still better energy-wise though with top loading. Takes up a lot of
room, but a friend's Beneteu (SP?) had a long, shallow built in frige
and freezer. Oh well, one can expect some convenience aboard a
$300,000 boat!



Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.

A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.

Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)

Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.


That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy! When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries. Gave be 34 KWH. Sounds like an
awful lot, doesn't it? Well 1 gallon of gasoline will yield 34.5 KWH
if you do the BTU to KWH conversion. Of course if your gasoline engine
and generator on the 3 KW genset were 100% efficient you could run it
a bit over 10 hours instead of 3. Because of the efficiency of the
electric motor in the car, I got about 120 miles from that electrical
"gallon" of battery. Works out pretty close to the propane stove vs.
genset/electric stove stuff above.


Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.


We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.

I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.



We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Rick

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:16:45 -0600, Rick Morel
wrote:

About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon

Oops. Typo, should be about 3 AH or 39 W per gallon. This figuring 13V
on the battery bank. Probably be easier to put it at 40 W. It is an
average. So 25 GPH times 40 W is 1,000 W or 1 KW.

Rick

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:16:45 -0600, Rick Morel
wrote:

About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon

Oops. Typo, should be about 3 AH or 39 W per gallon. This figuring 13V
on the battery bank. Probably be easier to put it at 40 W. It is an
average. So 25 GPH times 40 W is 1,000 W or 1 KW.

Rick

Rick Morel wrote:

Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.


Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!

Hey, I know that the v-berth is unusable for
sleeping at sea in anything but benign conditions
anyway. Ask me how I know ;-) Might as well use
it as a big (well... sorta) walk in closet.

As far as making up the settee, which is what we
do on the Irwin right now, we'll see. The problem
is that the aft cabin is pretty low, and my wife
can not seem to remember to not bang her head on
it for more than two weeks at a time. Since she's
slightly claustrophobic anyway, but doesn't seem
to mind folding the bedding, I figure that we've
got _two_ walk in closets, and no eating after
bedtime. Of course, if you just want to catch a
quick nap, there is the qtr-berth on the other
side of the aisle from the settee, and its always
available.


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave.snip

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.

Actually, you'd be surprised. Here's a quick
rundown of what's in the kitchen at our house
right now:

Toaster Oven - 1380W
Microwave - 1560W
Coffee Maker - 1050W
Electric Griddle - 1400W
5 Burner Electric Range - 6700W

So if you turn on _everything_ at the same time
at max heat, you need 12KW, but that's not
realistic for the way you cook even at home.

Typically, for a big breakfast, we use two burners
on the range with one at 70% and the other at
30% (Hashbrowns and Eggs). The griddle is cycling
on and off to keep the surface temp to 350F
(Pancakes), and the coffee pot is brewing a pot of
coffee. Once the brew cycle is done (~5 min) it
goes to about 35% for the carafe warmer.

So you have essentially one burner at 100% for 15
minutes, + the griddle (at say 75%) for 15
minutes, plus the coffeepot at 100% for 5 minutes,
and then 35% for 10 minutes. Doing the math, you
get a peak load of (6500W/5)+(1400W*75%)+(1050W)=
3400W. You are just above the capacity of the 3KW
genset, so you either have to make the coffee
first, and then do the cooking, or, alternatively,
light off the second genset.

Note that the entire cooking time is only 1/4 hour
at 1/3 gal/hr so you use a little over a pint of
fuel to cook breakfast. At $5/gallon this works
out to 72 cents for fuel. The potato probably
cost that much! I could go through lunch and
dinner, but for us they would typically be even
less, since the griddle and coffee maker are not
in use. Often for dinner we have a salad, or heat
up homemade soup in the microwave. Lunches are
typically sandwiches, or a salad or re-heated soup.

After breakfast is cooked, the genset can power
the watermaker and the hot water heater while we
eat and do dishes. Our water heater is a 11
gallon Force 10 which draws 1500W. If the
watermaker draws 1000W like you say down below,
we've got 500W left over (12V @ 41A!) to charge
the batteries for the day.

Also, I don't really expect to use anywhere near
70 Gallons per day of water, but don't really know
for sure.

As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook.

Amazingly we came really close to the same answer
for fuel burn. Must be right ;-)


The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

Well, I'd like to minimize the number of different
fuels I have to deal with, so that's part of the
equation.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

I've got a real nice two burner camp stove with a
built in oven, but then I'd have to carry propane
again. At least part of my motivation is to avoid
that unexpected BOOOOOOMMMM when you forgot to
change the batteries in the propane detector and
that last big wave with the stove ungimballed
sprung your propane fitting on the back of the stove.

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.

okay, I'll post if/when we pull the stove.
Probably be a while though because we're swamped
with other projects right now.

At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)


I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Probably.

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.


A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.


Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)


Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.

See my discussion above. Bottom line is don't
turn on everything at the same time.

That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy!

Agreed. The aussies have some triple junction
research solar cells that reach in the low 60%
efficiency IIRC. Now if somebody would just start
massive production to get the cost down. BTW, I
had to take thermodynamics to get the degree, so
I'm with you on the energy conversion losses.
Entropy always wins.

When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries.

Neat project. You were ahead of your time.

Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.

Well, hassles are not what I want for sure. I've
already had enough for one lifetime. However,
we've got a 50GPH RO system under our sink at
home, and it's feeding into a tiny 3.5 gallon
reservoir. I don't think that little spigot on
the sink can even flow 50GPH! The reason it's got
the 50GPH membrane instead of the 12.5GPH membrane
it came with was that when I replaced the membrane
and filters a few years back I found a source for
the membranes where I could get the 50GPH membrane
for what I was paying for the 12.5GPH. I'm
considering buying the membrane and pump(s) and
constructing my own watermaker--and yes, I'm aware
that the sea water membranes are quite different
from freshwater ones like I have under the sink at
home. It's not rocket science though, and that
way when it breaks down, I'll have a clue how to
go about fixing it.

We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.


I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.

I agree. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out
where I can put any significant square footage of
solar panels unless someone comes up with ones you
can walk on that are efficient. I'll probably end
up with the requisite two on the arch over the bimini.

We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

That is... "Sweety, you'll get used to it. And
remember you don't have to go to work in the
morning either."

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Thanks for your thoughts Rick. You've obviously
been there/done that ;-)

Don W.

Don W wrote:
Rick Morel wrote:

Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep. The aft
quarterberth is quite large, and the table/settee makes down into
nice double bed for two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.


Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!

Hey, I know that the v-berth is unusable for sleeping at sea in anything
but benign conditions anyway. Ask me how I know ;-) Might as well use
it as a big (well... sorta) walk in closet.

As far as making up the settee, which is what we do on the Irwin right
now, we'll see. The problem is that the aft cabin is pretty low, and my
wife can not seem to remember to not bang her head on it for more than
two weeks at a time. Since she's slightly claustrophobic anyway, but
doesn't seem to mind folding the bedding, I figure that we've got _two_
walk in closets, and no eating after bedtime. Of course, if you just
want to catch a quick nap, there is the qtr-berth on the other side of
the aisle from the settee, and its always available.


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system out of the Irwin,
and replacing the gimballed propane 3-burner stove/oven with a
gimbaled electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along with a
built-in microwave.snip

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.

Actually, you'd be surprised. Here's a quick rundown of what's in the
kitchen at our house right now:

Toaster Oven - 1380W
Microwave - 1560W
Coffee Maker - 1050W
Electric Griddle - 1400W
5 Burner Electric Range - 6700W

So if you turn on _everything_ at the same time at max heat, you need
12KW, but that's not realistic for the way you cook even at home.

Typically, for a big breakfast, we use two burners on the range with
one at 70% and the other at 30% (Hashbrowns and Eggs). The griddle is
cycling on and off to keep the surface temp to 350F (Pancakes), and the
coffee pot is brewing a pot of coffee. Once the brew cycle is done (~5
min) it goes to about 35% for the carafe warmer.

So you have essentially one burner at 100% for 15 minutes, + the griddle
(at say 75%) for 15 minutes, plus the coffeepot at 100% for 5 minutes,
and then 35% for 10 minutes. Doing the math, you get a peak load of
(6500W/5)+(1400W*75%)+(1050W)= 3400W. You are just above the capacity
of the 3KW genset, so you either have to make the coffee first, and then
do the cooking, or, alternatively, light off the second genset.

Note that the entire cooking time is only 1/4 hour at 1/3 gal/hr so you
use a little over a pint of fuel to cook breakfast. At $5/gallon this
works out to 72 cents for fuel. The potato probably cost that much! I
could go through lunch and dinner, but for us they would typically be
even less, since the griddle and coffee maker are not in use. Often for
dinner we have a salad, or heat up homemade soup in the microwave.
Lunches are typically sandwiches, or a salad or re-heated soup.

After breakfast is cooked, the genset can power the watermaker and the
hot water heater while we eat and do dishes. Our water heater is a 11
gallon Force 10 which draws 1500W. If the watermaker draws 1000W like
you say down below, we've got 500W left over (12V @ 41A!) to charge the
batteries for the day.

Also, I don't really expect to use anywhere near 70 Gallons per day of
water, but don't really know for sure.

As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook.

Amazingly we came really close to the same answer for fuel burn. Must
be right ;-)


The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

Well, I'd like to minimize the number of different fuels I have to deal
with, so that's part of the equation.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

I've got a real nice two burner camp stove with a built in oven, but
then I'd have to carry propane again. At least part of my motivation is
to avoid that unexpected BOOOOOOMMMM when you forgot to change the
batteries in the propane detector and that last big wave with the stove
ungimballed sprung your propane fitting on the back of the stove.

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.

okay, I'll post if/when we pull the stove. Probably be a while though
because we're swamped with other projects right now.

At home we've been doing almost all of our oven cooking in a large
toaster oven due to the fact that we are currently remodeling the
kitchen. You know what? You can cook almost anything in that little
toaster oven that you can do in the big oven, and it takes a _lot_
less space. We're not talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for
12 here. Of course you need someplace to store your pots and pans
anyway...;-)


I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Probably.

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat allows space for the
watermaker, and the genset provides the power to run it when you need
it. The same power provides plenty of hot water. In fact (heresy
warning) we plan on running the air conditioner from time to time if
it is still too hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the genset
is _really_ quiet.


A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.


Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse osmosis watermaker
should fill it from empty in 3 hours. While the genset is running
the watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging the batteries,
and providing power for cooking. So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour
and the typical $5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when anchored
out. That is $150/month, and less than our current slip fee, so not
quite up to the $10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar tab--until my wife
turns on the air conditioner ;-)


Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.

See my discussion above. Bottom line is don't turn on everything at the
same time.

That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy!

Agreed. The aussies have some triple junction research solar cells that
reach in the low 60% efficiency IIRC. Now if somebody would just start
massive production to get the cost down. BTW, I had to take
thermodynamics to get the degree, so I'm with you on the energy
conversion losses. Entropy always wins.

When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries.

Neat project. You were ahead of your time.

Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.

Well, hassles are not what I want for sure. I've already had enough for
one lifetime. However, we've got a 50GPH RO system under our sink at
home, and it's feeding into a tiny 3.5 gallon reservoir. I don't think
that little spigot on the sink can even flow 50GPH! The reason it's got
the 50GPH membrane instead of the 12.5GPH membrane it came with was that
when I replaced the membrane and filters a few years back I found a
source for the membranes where I could get the 50GPH membrane for what I
was paying for the 12.5GPH. I'm considering buying the membrane and
pump(s) and constructing my own watermaker--and yes, I'm aware that the
sea water membranes are quite different from freshwater ones like I have
under the sink at home. It's not rocket science though, and that way
when it breaks down, I'll have a clue how to go about fixing it.

We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar panels as well.
I've done the math though, and that genset is going to have to run
some. Better it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar makes a
lot of noise and causes a fair amount of vibration.


I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.

I agree. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out where I can put any
significant square footage of solar panels unless someone comes up with
ones you can walk on that are efficient. I'll probably end up with the
requisite two on the arch over the bimini.

We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later this year, and then
we'll see. My spouse of 24 years has her doubts, but I'll wager she
ends up really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

That is... "Sweety, you'll get used to it. And remember you don't
have to go to work in the morning either."

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Thanks for your thoughts Rick. You've obviously been there/done that ;-)

Don W.

Don,
Don't you have a cutoff solenoid in your propane locker to make sure
there can be no propane in the cabin if the line were to break? Propane
should be in a locker sealed from the cabin and vented to the outside of
the boat with a shutoff valve. I and many others have used it for years
with no booom.
krj

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:24:19 GMT, Don W
wrote:

Hey, I know that the v-berth is unusable for
sleeping at sea in anything but benign conditions
anyway. Ask me how I know ;-) Might as well use
it as a big (well... sorta) walk in closet.

Don't have to ask. I know :-)
As an aside, my ex could take anything short period, in shallow water.
Offshore she got very seasick. To the point of considering her flying
to the next from-offshore destination. She found a fix - stay in the
forward stateroom and sleep on the vee-berth. It was the sloooow up
and down that got to her; no problem with the FAST up and down.

Vee-berth will be our "bedroom" cause it's the only double. Settee
berth will be the single off-watch berth when needed. With added, what
are they called, rod and canvas thing that comes up and attaches so
you don't roll out.


As far as making up the settee, which is what we
do on the Irwin right now, we'll see. The problem
is that the aft cabin is pretty low, and my wife
can not seem to remember to not bang her head on
it for more than two weeks at a time. Since she's
slightly claustrophobic anyway, but doesn't seem
to mind folding the bedding, I figure that we've
got _two_ walk in closets, and no eating after
bedtime. Of course, if you just want to catch a
quick nap, there is the qtr-berth on the other
side of the aisle from the settee, and its always
available.

One reason we passed on the S2 30 center cockpit. The other is that
one had to sit on the shelf of the tiny bathtub and hunker over to
take a shower. As I recall, lots of room between the dinette and
settee - a friend has an Irwin 37. Folding table at the settee?
"Dinette" for two? Leave the bed made? Just rambling....


Actually, you'd be surprised. Here's a quick
rundown of what's in the kitchen at our house
right now:

Toaster Oven - 1380W
Microwave - 1560W
Coffee Maker - 1050W
Electric Griddle - 1400W
5 Burner Electric Range - 6700W

So if you turn on _everything_ at the same time
at max heat, you need 12KW, but that's not
realistic for the way you cook even at home.

Typically, for a big breakfast, we use two burners
on the range with one at 70% and the other at
30% (Hashbrowns and Eggs). The griddle is cycling
on and off to keep the surface temp to 350F
(Pancakes), and the coffee pot is brewing a pot of
coffee. Once the brew cycle is done (~5 min) it
goes to about 35% for the carafe warmer.

So you have essentially one burner at 100% for 15
minutes, + the griddle (at say 75%) for 15
minutes, plus the coffeepot at 100% for 5 minutes,
and then 35% for 10 minutes. Doing the math, you
get a peak load of (6500W/5)+(1400W*75%)+(1050W)=
3400W. You are just above the capacity of the 3KW
genset, so you either have to make the coffee
first, and then do the cooking, or, alternatively,
light off the second genset.

I did some checking.
Princess 3-burner Marine Stove, which seems typical.
1 simmer (550 watt) and 2 high speed (1100 watt) burners
1250 watt bake element
1300 watt broiler element

So less than I was thinking. Dang, I do remember a factory printed
placard next to my friend's stove listing combinations of
burners/oven. But then the stove in that monster was more of a home
type!

Anyway it's 1,876 BTU, 3,753 BTU and 4,265 BTU respectively, leaving
out the broiler and assuming 100% electric to heat conversion.

Doing the conversion propane, with 5,000 BTU and 8,000 BTU burners,
and 6500-16250 BTU oven (from checking) works out to 1,465 W, 2,344 W,
1,905-4,762 W output respectively.

Okay, so looking at the marine electric vs. propane, and factoring in
the home electric, it seems the marine electric is designed more to
fit the genset and shore power socket. Specs on home electric stoves
are harder to find. In any event, electric should give better heat
tranfer to the pot, no airpace under to radiate heat, and one seldom
uses a propane stove full blast except to quickly bring to a boil.

Where am I going with this? Noplace, really. It's just information.

Note that the entire cooking time is only 1/4 hour
at 1/3 gal/hr so you use a little over a pint of
fuel to cook breakfast. At $5/gallon this works
out to 72 cents for fuel. The potato probably
cost that much! I could go through lunch and
dinner, but for us they would typically be even
less, since the griddle and coffee maker are not
in use. Often for dinner we have a salad, or heat
up homemade soup in the microwave. Lunches are
typically sandwiches, or a salad or re-heated soup.

After breakfast is cooked, the genset can power
the watermaker and the hot water heater while we
eat and do dishes. Our water heater is a 11
gallon Force 10 which draws 1500W. If the
watermaker draws 1000W like you say down below,
we've got 500W left over (12V @ 41A!) to charge
the batteries for the day.

Sounds like a well thought out plan! $5 a gallon for gas? Is this what
the marinas are charging these days? Wow! I'd consider dinghying in
with a few jerry cans and looking for a regular auto gas station!


Also, I don't really expect to use anywhere near
70 Gallons per day of water, but don't really know
for sure.

We used 4 to 6 gallons a day. High compared to many. One of the most
wasteful water things is running the hot water tap, waiting for the
hot to get there. Some folks put a valve in the line and route it back
to the tank until it gets hot, close the valve and turn on the hot
water tap.

Don't know if it's true, but was told of a big powerboat at an
anchorage. They had a big watermaker. Every day when they cranked up
to recharge and run the watermaker they put out a "water call" on the
VHF for folks to dinghy over with jugs or whatever to run their tanks
down. Obviously they knew they had to run it awhile.


Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day (SNIP)

Amazingly we came really close to the same answer
for fuel burn. Must be right ;-)

Oh, us engineering types :-)


If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.

okay, I'll post if/when we pull the stove.
Probably be a while though because we're swamped
with other projects right now.

Maybe not. You said 3-burner. Don't think I'd have room :-(


That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy!

Agreed. The aussies have some triple junction
research solar cells that reach in the low 60%
efficiency IIRC. Now if somebody would just start
massive production to get the cost down. BTW, I
had to take thermodynamics to get the degree, so
I'm with you on the energy conversion losses.
Entropy always wins.

Agreed. I came across the following:
"Today, commonly available solar panels are 12% efficient, which is
four times greater than only a few years ago."
and
"Silicon solar cell efficiencies vary from 6% for amorphous
silicon-based solar cells to 40.7% with multiple-junction research lab
cells. Solar cell energy conversion efficiencies for commercially
available mc-Si solar cells are around 14-16%. The highest efficiency
cells have not always been the most economical -- for example a 30%
efficient multijunction cell based on exotic materials such as gallium
arsenide or indium selenide and produced in low volume might well cost
one hundred times as much as an 8% efficient amorphous silicon cell in
mass production, while only delivering about four times the electrical
power."

Also came across a company claiming they've got 22%, "up to 50% more",
that are available now. Couldn't find a price anywhere. Their size
specs show they're about 71% of the area of the others.

Bottom line for us is try to find the space needed for "regular"
panels. I have a source for inexpensive removals from our offshore oil
industry.

Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day!
SNIP

Well, hassles are not what I want for sure. I've
already had enough for one lifetime. However,
we've got a 50GPH RO system under our sink at
home, and it's feeding into a tiny 3.5 gallon
reservoir. I don't think that little spigot on
the sink can even flow 50GPH! The reason it's got
the 50GPH membrane instead of the 12.5GPH membrane
it came with was that when I replaced the membrane
and filters a few years back I found a source for
the membranes where I could get the 50GPH membrane
for what I was paying for the 12.5GPH. I'm
considering buying the membrane and pump(s) and
constructing my own watermaker--and yes, I'm aware
that the sea water membranes are quite different
from freshwater ones like I have under the sink at
home. It's not rocket science though, and that
way when it breaks down, I'll have a clue how to
go about fixing it.

Lot's of stuff on the web by Brent Swain re rolling your own. No
details except "buy my book". Ran across at least one web site with
details. Most are high output with a pressure washer pump. Right, it's
not rocket science. I'm looking at what it would take to build that
ideal-for-me 3 GPH one with a 12V drive.

Yes, the home and seawater ones are diffenent and as I understand
seawater requires about 800 PSI and a finer membrane as opposed to the
home 30 or 40 PSI regular water pressure.

However, I did come across something that makes me wonder. First, PUR
says "Salt Rejection: 98.4% average (96% minimum).."

GE has a new home RO and says, "GE Infrastructure Water and Process
Technologies has achieved a revolutionary breakthrough in the water
treatment industry." 720 GPD and $400. They use salt for the TDS specs
and it is, "TDS Rejection (NaCl) 90% Min, 99% Max, 93% Average."

Okay. Never tasted salt or anything in those years of drinking RO from
a PUR. Did taste salty at some marinas in FL (guess it was in the
ground water). So taking worse case, maybe twice the salt left with
the GE. How "tasty" is twice no taste?

GE says the "Inlet TDS" is from 50 MG/L to 2 G/L. A quick check finds
seawater is 35 G/L. Oh oh! 17.5 times the max! Is the max really the
max? Or is it a convient and/or tested figure because that's the most
ever expected from city and/or well water? What happens if seawater
were used? Would it clog/ruin the membrane? Would it remove 1/17 or
1/X as much TDS? What is the criteria for TDS?

The above presented really to point out one has to research things all
the way, as you've done. Not very difficult these days with the
internet. How I remember spending hours, even days at libraries in the
past.

Hmmm... Another research project. If one has say 25 GPH membranes, can
one run less water through them, say from a 12V pump, and get 2 or 3
or 8 or whatever GPH? Say an engine driven or AC genset driven, if you
have one, high volume pump and a 12V low volume? Less efficient? Would
it even work? I honestly don't understand everything I know about RO!

I notice there are two RO manufacturers within 30 minutes from here.
They do the BIG stuff for the oil industry, 10,000 GPD. I think I
might visit one or both. Okay Rick. Next project is to research and
learn everything currently known about RO watermakers.


I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.

I agree. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out
where I can put any significant square footage of
solar panels unless someone comes up with ones you
can walk on that are efficient. I'll probably end
up with the requisite two on the arch over the bimini.

Our Cornado's aft deck, under the mizzen boom, had a solar "patio
roof". Took up the whole aft deck and hung a bit over the sides on the
aft end. 5 X 7 feet as I recall. The new owner moved them to the
lifelines. He added stainless tubing and fashioned mounts so they
could swing down, vertically. Seems to work. This is probably what
I'll have to do with at least a couple. The other two can go on an
arch over the davits.


I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

That is... "Sweety, you'll get used to it. And
remember you don't have to go to work in the
morning either."

Psych 101. "WE'LL get used to it." (Just got a mental picture of a
smug Don standing over his sitting, fuming wife saying, "Sweety, ...")
Honestly, don't pretend you're 100% in heaven. In truth you'll have to
get used to it too. Well, unless your idea of comfort is a 30-day
canoe trip down the Amazon. :-)

Thanks for your thoughts Rick. You've obviously
been there/done that ;-)

Thanks! Yep. Been there done that. Gonna do it again!!!! Hot dawg!!!!

Speaking of there. I'm in New Iberia, LA. Middle of the state about as
close as you can get to the coast without living with the gators. I
saw in another post you're Texas coast. What part? Just curious.

Rick

Rick Morel wrote:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:24:19 GMT, Don W
wrote:

Hey, I know that the v-berth is unusable for
sleeping at sea in anything but benign conditions
anyway. Ask me how I know ;-) Might as well use
it as a big (well... sorta) walk in closet.

Don't have to ask. I know :-)
As an aside, my ex could take anything short period, in shallow water.
Offshore she got very seasick. To the point of considering her flying
to the next from-offshore destination. She found a fix - stay in the
forward stateroom and sleep on the vee-berth. It was the sloooow up
and down that got to her; no problem with the FAST up and down.

Vee-berth will be our "bedroom" cause it's the only double. Settee
berth will be the single off-watch berth when needed. With added, what
are they called, rod and canvas thing that comes up and attaches so
you don't roll out.
Lee cloth


As far as making up the settee, which is what we
do on the Irwin right now, we'll see. The problem
is that the aft cabin is pretty low, and my wife
can not seem to remember to not bang her head on
it for more than two weeks at a time. Since she's
slightly claustrophobic anyway, but doesn't seem
to mind folding the bedding, I figure that we've
got _two_ walk in closets, and no eating after
bedtime. Of course, if you just want to catch a
quick nap, there is the qtr-berth on the other
side of the aisle from the settee, and its always
available.

One reason we passed on the S2 30 center cockpit. The other is that
one had to sit on the shelf of the tiny bathtub and hunker over to
take a shower. As I recall, lots of room between the dinette and
settee - a friend has an Irwin 37. Folding table at the settee?
"Dinette" for two? Leave the bed made? Just rambling....


Actually, you'd be surprised. Here's a quick
rundown of what's in the kitchen at our house
right now:

Toaster Oven - 1380W
Microwave - 1560W
Coffee Maker - 1050W
Electric Griddle - 1400W
5 Burner Electric Range - 6700W

So if you turn on _everything_ at the same time
at max heat, you need 12KW, but that's not
realistic for the way you cook even at home.

Typically, for a big breakfast, we use two burners
on the range with one at 70% and the other at
30% (Hashbrowns and Eggs). The griddle is cycling
on and off to keep the surface temp to 350F
(Pancakes), and the coffee pot is brewing a pot of
coffee. Once the brew cycle is done (~5 min) it
goes to about 35% for the carafe warmer.

So you have essentially one burner at 100% for 15
minutes, + the griddle (at say 75%) for 15
minutes, plus the coffeepot at 100% for 5 minutes,
and then 35% for 10 minutes. Doing the math, you
get a peak load of (6500W/5)+(1400W*75%)+(1050W)=
3400W. You are just above the capacity of the 3KW
genset, so you either have to make the coffee
first, and then do the cooking, or, alternatively,
light off the second genset.

I did some checking.
Princess 3-burner Marine Stove, which seems typical.
1 simmer (550 watt) and 2 high speed (1100 watt) burners
1250 watt bake element
1300 watt broiler element

So less than I was thinking. Dang, I do remember a factory printed
placard next to my friend's stove listing combinations of
burners/oven. But then the stove in that monster was more of a home
type!

Anyway it's 1,876 BTU, 3,753 BTU and 4,265 BTU respectively, leaving
out the broiler and assuming 100% electric to heat conversion.

Doing the conversion propane, with 5,000 BTU and 8,000 BTU burners,
and 6500-16250 BTU oven (from checking) works out to 1,465 W, 2,344 W,
1,905-4,762 W output respectively.

Okay, so looking at the marine electric vs. propane, and factoring in
the home electric, it seems the marine electric is designed more to
fit the genset and shore power socket. Specs on home electric stoves
are harder to find. In any event, electric should give better heat
tranfer to the pot, no airpace under to radiate heat, and one seldom
uses a propane stove full blast except to quickly bring to a boil.

Where am I going with this? Noplace, really. It's just information.

Note that the entire cooking time is only 1/4 hour
at 1/3 gal/hr so you use a little over a pint of
fuel to cook breakfast. At $5/gallon this works
out to 72 cents for fuel. The potato probably
cost that much! I could go through lunch and
dinner, but for us they would typically be even
less, since the griddle and coffee maker are not
in use. Often for dinner we have a salad, or heat
up homemade soup in the microwave. Lunches are
typically sandwiches, or a salad or re-heated soup.

After breakfast is cooked, the genset can power
the watermaker and the hot water heater while we
eat and do dishes. Our water heater is a 11
gallon Force 10 which draws 1500W. If the
watermaker draws 1000W like you say down below,
we've got 500W left over (12V @ 41A!) to charge
the batteries for the day.

Sounds like a well thought out plan! $5 a gallon for gas? Is this what
the marinas are charging these days? Wow! I'd consider dinghying in
with a few jerry cans and looking for a regular auto gas station!


Also, I don't really expect to use anywhere near
70 Gallons per day of water, but don't really know
for sure.

We used 4 to 6 gallons a day. High compared to many. One of the most
wasteful water things is running the hot water tap, waiting for the
hot to get there. Some folks put a valve in the line and route it back
to the tank until it gets hot, close the valve and turn on the hot
water tap.

Don't know if it's true, but was told of a big powerboat at an
anchorage. They had a big watermaker. Every day when they cranked up
to recharge and run the watermaker they put out a "water call" on the
VHF for folks to dinghy over with jugs or whatever to run their tanks
down. Obviously they knew they had to run it awhile.


Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day (SNIP)
Amazingly we came really close to the same answer
for fuel burn. Must be right ;-)

Oh, us engineering types :-)


If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.
okay, I'll post if/when we pull the stove.
Probably be a while though because we're swamped
with other projects right now.

Maybe not. You said 3-burner. Don't think I'd have room :-(


That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy!
Agreed. The aussies have some triple junction
research solar cells that reach in the low 60%
efficiency IIRC. Now if somebody would just start
massive production to get the cost down. BTW, I
had to take thermodynamics to get the degree, so
I'm with you on the energy conversion losses.
Entropy always wins.

Agreed. I came across the following:
"Today, commonly available solar panels are 12% efficient, which is
four times greater than only a few years ago."
and
"Silicon solar cell efficiencies vary from 6% for amorphous
silicon-based solar cells to 40.7% with multiple-junction research lab
cells. Solar cell energy conversion efficiencies for commercially
available mc-Si solar cells are around 14-16%. The highest efficiency
cells have not always been the most economical -- for example a 30%
efficient multijunction cell based on exotic materials such as gallium
arsenide or indium selenide and produced in low volume might well cost
one hundred times as much as an 8% efficient amorphous silicon cell in
mass production, while only delivering about four times the electrical
power."

Also came across a company claiming they've got 22%, "up to 50% more",
that are available now. Couldn't find a price anywhere. Their size
specs show they're about 71% of the area of the others.

Bottom line for us is try to find the space needed for "regular"
panels. I have a source for inexpensive removals from our offshore oil
industry.

Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day!
SNIP

Well, hassles are not what I want for sure. I've
already had enough for one lifetime. However,
we've got a 50GPH RO system under our sink at
home, and it's feeding into a tiny 3.5 gallon
reservoir. I don't think that little spigot on
the sink can even flow 50GPH! The reason it's got
the 50GPH membrane instead of the 12.5GPH membrane
it came with was that when I replaced the membrane
and filters a few years back I found a source for
the membranes where I could get the 50GPH membrane
for what I was paying for the 12.5GPH. I'm
considering buying the membrane and pump(s) and
constructing my own watermaker--and yes, I'm aware
that the sea water membranes are quite different
from freshwater ones like I have under the sink at
home. It's not rocket science though, and that
way when it breaks down, I'll have a clue how to
go about fixing it.

Lot's of stuff on the web by Brent Swain re rolling your own. No
details except "buy my book". Ran across at least one web site with
details. Most are high output with a pressure washer pump. Right, it's
not rocket science. I'm looking at what it would take to build that
ideal-for-me 3 GPH one with a 12V drive.

Yes, the home and seawater ones are diffenent and as I understand
seawater requires about 800 PSI and a finer membrane as opposed to the
home 30 or 40 PSI regular water pressure.

However, I did come across something that makes me wonder. First, PUR
says "Salt Rejection: 98.4% average (96% minimum).."

GE has a new home RO and says, "GE Infrastructure Water and Process
Technologies has achieved a revolutionary breakthrough in the water
treatment industry." 720 GPD and $400. They use salt for the TDS specs
and it is, "TDS Rejection (NaCl) 90% Min, 99% Max, 93% Average."

Okay. Never tasted salt or anything in those years of drinking RO from
a PUR. Did taste salty at some marinas in FL (guess it was in the
ground water). So taking worse case, maybe twice the salt left with
the GE. How "tasty" is twice no taste?

GE says the "Inlet TDS" is from 50 MG/L to 2 G/L. A quick check finds
seawater is 35 G/L. Oh oh! 17.5 times the max! Is the max really the
max? Or is it a convient and/or tested figure because that's the most
ever expected from city and/or well water? What happens if seawater
were used? Would it clog/ruin the membrane? Would it remove 1/17 or
1/X as much TDS? What is the criteria for TDS?

The above presented really to point out one has to research things all
the way, as you've done. Not very difficult these days with the
internet. How I remember spending hours, even days at libraries in the
past.

Hmmm... Another research project. If one has say 25 GPH membranes, can
one run less water through them, say from a 12V pump, and get 2 or 3
or 8 or whatever GPH? Say an engine driven or AC genset driven, if you
have one, high volume pump and a 12V low volume? Less efficient? Would
it even work? I honestly don't understand everything I know about RO!

I notice there are two RO manufacturers within 30 minutes from here.
They do the BIG stuff for the oil industry, 10,000 GPD. I think I
might visit one or both. Okay Rick. Next project is to research and
learn everything currently known about RO watermakers.


I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.
I agree. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out
where I can put any significant square footage of
solar panels unless someone comes up with ones you
can walk on that are efficient. I'll probably end
up with the requisite two on the arch over the bimini.

Our Cornado's aft deck, under the mizzen boom, had a solar "patio
roof". Took up the whole aft deck and hung a bit over the sides on the
aft end. 5 X 7 feet as I recall. The new owner moved them to the
lifelines. He added stainless tubing and fashioned mounts so they
could swing down, vertically. Seems to work. This is probably what
I'll have to do with at least a couple. The other two can go on an
arch over the davits.


I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"
That is... "Sweety, you'll get used to it. And
remember you don't have to go to work in the
morning either."

Psych 101. "WE'LL get used to it." (Just got a mental picture of a
smug Don standing over his sitting, fuming wife saying, "Sweety, ...")
Honestly, don't pretend you're 100% in heaven. In truth you'll have to
get used to it too. Well, unless your idea of comfort is a 30-day
canoe trip down the Amazon. :-)

Thanks for your thoughts Rick. You've obviously
been there/done that ;-)

Thanks! Yep. Been there done that. Gonna do it again!!!! Hot dawg!!!!

Speaking of there. I'm in New Iberia, LA. Middle of the state about as
close as you can get to the coast without living with the gators. I
saw in another post you're Texas coast. What part? Just curious.

Rick

krj wrote:

Don,
Don't you have a cutoff solenoid in your propane locker to make sure
there can be no propane in the cabin if the line were to break? Propane
should be in a locker sealed from the cabin and vented to the outside of
the boat with a shutoff valve. I and many others have used it for years
with no booom.
krj

Yes, we have the solenoid, but solenoids can stick
open, or a small gas leak while cooking can go
undetected.

I know that propane can be used safely, and is by
many people. I've also seen the pictures of at
least two different cruising boats that blew up at
anchor or the dock due to propane. It was a nasty
scene.

My thinking is that since I need the genset
anyway, why not just eliminate one fuel source,
and the necessity of finding a place to fill the
propane bottle in the boonies. I've got a large
built in diesel tank on board, and I have to keep
gasoline for the dinghy outboard anyway. Why add
a third fuel source to the mix?

The only reason I see to keep the propane stuff is
that you can then run the outside BBQ grill off of
propane--which would be handy.

Don W.