"Don W" wrote in message
t...


Capt. JG wrote:


Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to
wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less
chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.


Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch
out for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat.

Capt Sir,

Due respect, but I have boarded the stern of a dive boat in the open
Pacific (8' swells) with a 60lb pack on my back, and holding my dive fins
in one hand.

So have I... I was typing/thinking about sailboats. I've been out in some
big rollers (actually side-to-side rollers), and the best way we found to
board was to wait until the rail came down low enough to grab it, then hold
on until you're free of the water. (48' CT ketch) I don't think I would have
wanted to try that if the rollers were from the stern to bow.

You are correct that you have to be very careful not to get bonked on the
head. Still, in cold water if you will get the stern of that boat close
to me and the ladder down, I'll take my chances instead of waiting for you
to rig something else.

(Also, on our Irwin it would be very difficult to hit someone with the
prop unless they were completely under the boat.)

True, but if someone inadvertantly had the engine running or not fixed, it
could happen. Much less chance abeam.

Of course, the OP is right. You should consider that falling off the boat
is like falling off of a 1000' cliff and treat it with the same respect.

Don W.


g Well, anything over 30 feet or so and it doesn't much matter.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Don W" wrote in message
...


Capt. JG wrote:

"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Don W" wrote in message
news:ahbAh.9596


You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard
while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink
as it goes by.

I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible.
Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my
grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being
rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . .

JimB


Wasn't there some guy in his 70s who managed to haul himself out of the
water when he got knocked off his boat... I seem to recall the story
that he grabbed the boat as it went by and climbed back on. Or, is this a
Usenet myth? g

I'd sure give it a try if I was the only one on deck when I went OB, but I
sure wouldn't bet on the outcome.

Then there was the tragedy a few years back between Fiji and New Zealand,
where the guy fell overboard at night while his wife was asleep, and his
tether was just long enough to let him drag and drown. The wife found him
when she woke up in the morning.

Don W.



We had one off the coast here... the guy fell off the bow... got hit by a
mini-rogue wave and lost his footing. He was tethered but bonked his head.
His wife panicked and couldn't figure a way to haul him in. By the time she
got it together, he was dead from blunt trama. A good point of order on not
having too long a tether and not having jacklines that run the entire length
of the vessel.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in
warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the
boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things down
and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55 degree
water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours. However,
they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The most
important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD, since this
will extend their survival time.

By 'speed' I meant 'short time to recover MOB'. I thought that shorthand was
obvious since I was referring to the cold water problem . . . sorry if it
confused you.

Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to
wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less
chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

I guess you haven't tried this. Almost always, the boat will be making a
small headway, so you'll be heaving your man in from astern. Set the boat up
beam to the sea to minimise pitching. Even if it's pitching, a deep enough
ladder (3 steps in the water) prevents him from going under the stern. And
once he's got a pair of hands on the ladder sides, he can control his
position in all but the most extreme conditions. A beam ladder has to be
positioned by someone, which is a delay, the man has to be pulled forward
(past that prop?), and the vessel pointed head to sea. And very few beam
ladders (unless they're specially designed) go deep enough into the water to
useful to a swimmer. Rope ladders, sometimes suggested, slide around the
bilge and are very difficult to get your foot into. You've probably tried
using the flexible steps to get into a life raft - b** useless.

but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat... you
have winches, halyards... use them.

Because it takes time, rehearsal and at least two on deck. You'll need one
person to stabilise the boat's motion and hold it's heading. One more to rig
the gear - and that'll take time, especialy if the MOB is chilling down and
becoming clumsy at assisting you. OK, now he's attached. Next, you've got to
lift him . . . now, at this stage the helm can usually move in to assist,
and you'll need him.

I've tried this (in the Med, nice and warm) with several variations. Halyard
with four part tackle attached. Barrel sling. All methods ended up needing
three on deck. Negotiating the lifelines was always an issue. Best to cut
those free so the deck edge is clear, and there's not so far to lift the man
(or woman - sorry if I'm not being PC here!)

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

Bad idea in most cases.

I meant, send someone down ito the dinghy to drag him in. It's much easier
to get him on board from a dinghy, even if incapacitated. So, you're going
to leave him in the water and rig halyards etc instead? Maybe OK in warmer
water, but a right chill off otherwise. But of course, with only two aboard,
deciding to go down into the dinghy means putting two at risk versus one (in
cold water) certainly lost.

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.

Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing
on by themselves.

Precisely my point. All craft should be fitted with a ladder which can
easily be set up from within the water. Even at anchor. Swimming ashore
after falling in is not always an option. Even some marinas don't have
ladders to get you out of the water . . . in fact, ladders cope with the
majority of MOB events.

JimB
www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail.

"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
snip
A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.
B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.
C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a
strong crew.

OK, fire away.

I remember hearing a story some year ago, may have been a myth, may have
been real. the coastguard in australia supposedly came upon a yacht, with 4
or 5 people around it, all drowned and no survivors..... it happened in
calm waters. The theory was that they had all decided to go for a swim,
without hooking up the swim ladder. they must have died off eventually one
by one, tiring themselves out trying to get back aboard, realizing they
couldnt. even if the story is just a myth, the image stuck in my head
pretty well.

Shaun

"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in
warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the
boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things
down and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55
degree water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours.
However, they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The
most important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD,
since this will extend their survival time.

By 'speed' I meant 'short time to recover MOB'. I thought that shorthand
was obvious since I was referring to the cold water problem . . . sorry if
it confused you.

You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic
conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should
block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than
longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better
than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much
more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or
the boat itself.

Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to
wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less
chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

I guess you haven't tried this. Almost always, the boat will be making a
small headway, so you'll be heaving your man in from astern. Set the boat
up beam to the sea to minimise pitching. Even if it's pitching, a deep
enough ladder (3 steps in the water) prevents him from going under the
stern. And once he's got a pair of hands on the ladder sides, he can
control his position in all but the most extreme conditions. A beam ladder
has to be positioned by someone, which is a delay, the man has to be
pulled forward (past that prop?), and the vessel pointed head to sea. And
very few beam ladders (unless they're specially designed) go deep enough
into the water to useful to a swimmer. Rope ladders, sometimes suggested,
slide around the bilge and are very difficult to get your foot into.
You've probably tried using the flexible steps to get into a life raft -
b** useless.

Actually, we have. The boat should not be making "small headway," rather it
should be completely stopped. Small headway is how fast exactly? 1 kt? Even
at that speed you'll be hard-pressed. You're talking about someone who at
best is totally freaked from having been in the water. They're not going to
be doing anything except scrambling to get back on, and that assumes they
can actually do something useful. Most MOBs don't fall off in benign
conditions. 10 foot seas with lots of chop and whitecaps are pretty extreme
if you have someone in the water.

Pulled forward?? You need to stop the boat between the waves/wind and the
person ON THE BEAM. If your boat is set up properly, deploying a beam ladder
(which I don't think is a good idea either) takes a matter of seconds to
deploy. Instead of a ladder, use the rest of the boat's equipment to recover
the person. As soon as you attach them to the boat, you have plenty of time.


but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat...
you have winches, halyards... use them.

Because it takes time, rehearsal and at least two on deck. You'll need one
person to stabilise the boat's motion and hold it's heading. One more to
rig the gear - and that'll take time, especialy if the MOB is chilling
down and becoming clumsy at assisting you. OK, now he's attached. Next,
you've got to lift him . . . now, at this stage the helm can usually move
in to assist, and you'll need him.

No, it doesn't take excessive time. Yes, it takes practice! You can and I
have done all of this by myself. You don't need anyone to "stabilize" the
boat.

Here are the basic steps:

0) Calm down and help whoever remains on the boat to do the same (panic
kills faster than cold water)
1) return to the MOB (several methods - note that using the Lifesling, you
can't drag the person around)
2) position the boat abeam of the MOB with the MOB on the leeward side (this
protects the person and makes it easier to recover them)
3) stop all forward motion of the boat (anything less than this will make it
very difficult to recover the MOB)
4) attach the MOB to the boat (now they can't go anywhere)
5) drop all sails and secure the boom (you don't want jib sheets and booms
whipping around and you don't want the possibility of sailing away)
6) recover the MOB (use a winch, etc. to make it easier on everyone)

I've tried this (in the Med, nice and warm) with several variations.
Halyard with four part tackle attached. Barrel sling. All methods ended up
needing three on deck. Negotiating the lifelines was always an issue. Best
to cut those free so the deck edge is clear, and there's not so far to
lift the man (or woman - sorry if I'm not being PC here!)

You're just wrong or not doing this right. ONE person can do this, but yes
you have to practice.

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

Down? You should almost never put a second person in the water if that's
what you mean.


Bad idea in most cases.

I meant, send someone down ito the dinghy to drag him in. It's much easier
to get him on board from a dinghy, even if incapacitated. So, you're going
to leave him in the water and rig halyards etc instead? Maybe OK in warmer
water, but a right chill off otherwise. But of course, with only two
aboard, deciding to go down into the dinghy means putting two at risk
versus one (in cold water) certainly lost.

The dink is going to be, at best, highly unstable. Putting someone in the
dink is going to be tricky and dangerous except in the most benign
conditions, as you pretty much said.

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.

Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing
on by themselves.

Precisely my point. All craft should be fitted with a ladder which can
easily be set up from within the water. Even at anchor. Swimming ashore
after falling in is not always an option. Even some marinas don't have
ladders to get you out of the water . . . in fact, ladders cope with the
majority of MOB events.

Your point doesn't quite cut it. You need to use the boat to help you
recover someone. A boarding ladder should be available when you go swimming,
but it isn't good enough for an MOB recovery. Learn and practice the proper
recovery methods for an MOB. That's what is going to save someone's life....
not getting a nice boarding ladder for the stern.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"News f2s" wrote in message
...

(lots of good comments snipped, review thread if needed)

My thought with the inflatable in the water, assuming the MOB is able to get
into it, is that it gets them safely out of the water before the mothership
can get itself properly positioned for recovery (inflatable still tethered
to m.s.). In the inflatable, they can regain composure and calm down a bit
(if possible after the big splash). Bringing the m.s. abeam the inflatable,
the MOB is protected from the hard surface of the m.s.'s hull, and they can
"stand on the water," as it were, making recovery easier. In theory, but I
think a theory that is worth consideration. Most people can't levitate
themselves to water level, so having that "step up" advantage could be very
useful.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"News f2s" wrote in message
...

(lots of good comments snipped, review thread if needed)

My thought with the inflatable in the water, assuming the MOB is able to
get into it, is that it gets them safely out of the water before the
mothership can get itself properly positioned for recovery (inflatable
still tethered to m.s.). In the inflatable, they can regain composure and
calm down a bit (if possible after the big splash). Bringing the m.s.
abeam the inflatable, the MOB is protected from the hard surface of the
m.s.'s hull, and they can "stand on the water," as it were, making
recovery easier. In theory, but I think a theory that is worth
consideration. Most people can't levitate themselves to water level, so
having that "step up" advantage could be very useful.



Well, I certainly agree. I guess my main beef is with the notion that a real
MOB situation is going to allow for it. If it does, that's just so much
gravy (ok, I'll stop with the food metaphores g).

We were practiciing crew recovery in the SF bay. The conditions for the bay
were fairly typical those few days... 20kts, 3/4 ft chop, 4 kts current
running. We had 4 instructors, 3 students, one safety boat. One of the
instructors went in the water wearing a wetsuit, fins and a PFD. The
conditions were such that the buoys were straining in the current.

It was up to each student in turn to do the complete recovery, nuts to
bolts, dropping sails, etc., with no help from anyone else, which included
hoisting the MOB into the boat to complete the drill. The MOB was instructed
not to help, except to protect himself from getting hit with something... no
help to the person attempting the recovery. The best time was from a woman
who weighed about 100 lbs soaking wet, hauling the 200 lbs instructor back
onto the deck. In fact, she over did it and had to lower him, because she
winched him up too high initially. Time from in the drink to on deck was
about 2.5 minutes. My best time was about 4.5. We all (instructors included,
except for the guy in the water) did the drill multiple times over several
days.

Even though we had a safety boat, I would call this as real-world as you can
get without risking lives.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic
conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should
block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than
longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better
than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much
more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or
the boat itself.


I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it..

http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3&param=tmp

Goofball_star_dot_etal wrote:

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:


You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic
conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should
block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than
longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better
than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much
more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or
the boat itself.



I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it..

http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3&param=tmp


Ooo... That's cold!

Don W.

"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in
arctic
conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should
block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than
longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better
than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much
more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat
or
the boat itself.


I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it..

http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3&param=tmp



Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes.

Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide:

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com