I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you
are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in
the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-
sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought,
and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be
greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip


Skip,

It was suggested by another, earlier today, that you take Flying Pig on her
own bottom, under power, to another marina. Surely that is doable? If she's
not leaking, and has a working engine, splash her and get the hell out of
there!

On Feb 14, 8:48 pm, "Skip Gundlach" wrote:
I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip


Get the **** out of there any way you can!

Again, consider Indiantown Marina on the ditch or any other DIY yard
hopefully with a camp ground near by. I think there are still a couple
in the Lauderdale area.

Talk with a towing company and see what those costs would be.

Go on the Passagemaker forum and find a guy who goes by Fast Fred he's
at a another yard on the ditch. He may be able to help.

Don't give up. But do get out. :-)

On Feb 14, 7:57 pm, "capt.bill11" wrote:

Get the **** out of there any way you can!

Again, consider Indiantown Marina on the ditch or any other DIY yard
hopefully with a camp ground near by. I think there are still a couple
in the Lauderdale area.


ANd I would add, get a surveyor to give the hull a right to passage to
cover you libelous ass. That is, if you can get the guy to say it
sould make it to XYZ. Then when you,, uh er, I mean it sinks, you have
proof the boat was safe enough to motor. Maybe even get that total
from the insurance if in deep enough water. Just make sure your in
over 450'. Takes too much money to put a diver to that depth to check
sea cocks.
Dead Men Tell No Tales ,
Bob

Skip Gundlach wrote:

I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you
are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in
the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-
sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought,
and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be
greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin



You should be able to move that boat by the end of next week at the
latest, if you elect to truck it. Hopefully by now somebody has
forwarded you names of a couple of reliable truckers.

I know some of your pain, I was stuck in a $110
../day marina in Cape May a couple of years ago, I tried to deliver my
new purchase (an elderly Islander 44), on its own bottom, from Havre de
Grace Maryland to Newport, RI. and it was a bad choice, the boat was not
ready to go and you need to be tied to land to fix.

The next time, Trucking from Annapolis (this time an Alberg 35) cost
about 20% of the water delivery, ($1.100.00)and no risk of further water
damage.

My heart goes out to you. A friend of mine hit some of that solid water
2.5 hours after taking delivery of a new to him 38 ft Pan Oceanic
Cutter. The ledges in Woods Hole, MA are legendary for harvesting boats
in concert with the currents.

We've never exchanged notes but I've quietly watched your saga for years
now and really feel for you.

Good luck,

Jonathan

--
I am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

I think that I would contact the FL insurance commission. I don't know
what the laws of FL are like, but to me this smacks of insurance fraud.
You can't have 2 separate prices...one for insurance and one for the non-
insured. At least threatening this might get your bill reduced.

-- Geoff

For what this is worth, and it will probably come to nothing ...

I am passing this story on to John Stossel of ABC News.

Let's face it: if Skip was Black, and this was Katrina ,, every politician
in America would be there to help.

We need your help with this .. you readers of postings. Send a note to John
at ABC News. His web page is below.
John is a good man, if he sees injustice he gets ****ed. Well, lets' get
John ****ed.

Come on, no sit on your ass and complain types now.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/



============================
"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
...
I think that I would contact the FL insurance commission. I don't know
what the laws of FL are like, but to me this smacks of insurance fraud.
You can't have 2 separate prices...one for insurance and one for the non-
insured. At least threatening this might get your bill reduced.

-- Geoff

On Feb 15, 6:17 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
I think that I would contact the FL insurance commission. I don't know
what the laws of FL are like, but to me this smacks of insurance fraud.
You can't have 2 separate prices...one for insurance and one for the non-
insured. At least threatening this might get your bill reduced.

-- Geoff

I completely agree, unfortunately the insurance companies find it
easier to
just raise the rates then to fight the bad apples.
Tom

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they have
to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers are
doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.