I wouldn't want anyone thinking of buying a boat to read some of the posts
about the FP saga and get the idea that there actually is any such thing as
equity in a used boat. Maybe in the very narrow sense of being the amount of
principle paid down on a purchase loan but not in any way that you can count
on.

Sweat equity in particular evaporates just about as fast as its namesake.
These are simply the harsh facts of the boating life. The people advising
S&L to give up on the FP because of equity just don't have their eye on the
ball.

If I counted the hours I've spent on my boat at yard rates, I have about
fifty grand in a boat that was about half that out of pocket. I would be
lucky to get 18 K for her in this market. We'll be spending about four
thousand this spring to put a Cape Horn windvane and autopilot in her. After
that she'll be worth about eighteen five. It's grim. Raising kids is pretty
grim too, if you look at it that way. It isn't about the money.

FP is probably a quarter million dollar boat if S&L were to count their
sweat equity. If they had made it into Marathon and decided this wasn't the
life for them, they wouldn't have gotten that back. Most of this effort went
into making the FP just the way they wanted her. 95% of that stuff is still
there.

Except for a KISS generator and some other replaceable equipment items, some
sails and rigging (basically consumable items on a sailboat), the only thing
that she won't have after some topside cosmetic work is factory original
tabbing and rudder. That will diminish her value someday but won't be a
concern to S&L until they are ready for assisted living. That lost value is
the only thing, along with some innocence and self confidence, that they
left out on Content Keys.

There is that big salvage bill. That's what insurance is for.

Now, if this had happened on the delivery trip just after they bought the
boat, sure, it might be time to bail. The pay out for the totaled boat would
be close to the purchase price and they wouldn't have the unrecoverable
sweat equity in her yet. Just start over with another boat.

It would also be a different story if they were not capable of doing any of
the work themselves. In that case, they wouldn't be cut out for this life
anyway.

They signed up for adventure; not a beach condo. That's what adventure is,
the unexpected. A few more months of fiberglass work won't be much in the
grand scheme of things after they have twenty or thirty thousand miles
behind them.

--
Roger Long

?
--
Roger Long

Captain Roger ... I see that you are putting on a Cape Horn windvane self
steerer.

I am toying with a windvane. I found one on the net .. or in a mag and then
on the net.

It is a Voyager Windvane.. here is the web site connect:
http://www.voyagerwindvanes.com/Voyager/index.aspx

Could you take a look. Post what your opinion is. Or send me a direct
mail.

The reason I am drawn to the Voyager is because I have a tiller.

Thanks,,


I feel bad for S&L. And their boat the FP. I must say I've learned much
reading all the postings. I knew that area of Florida can be tough, but
didn't know the half of it; I guess. If I ever sail there, and I don't
have any plans to, I will set a very defensive course. I'd rather be out in
deep water then stuck on a reef. I don't think there are any reefs in New
England. Am I wrong? Mostly, in Maine, I sail in deep water. Then there
are big rocks. Hit the rock, sink in deep water. Yikes.

I hope the FP gets back on its feet. Time will tell.

The sweat equity is interesting. I plan on my spring refit to start in a
couple of weeks. That is if the weather isn't horrible. Just sanding the
bottom will take two days. At 8 hours a day x $100 per hour = $1600. That
is the rate for that crooked marina they are at.

What Skip ought to do is hire a whole bunch of illegals. The marina will go
nuts. But, once the marina starts telling them they can't work and all;
call up Mr Politician. The marina will be told that the health department
is on its way for a complete look see. Let's face it, we Americans don't
matter anymore. It is the Mexicans who are the important ones.

Someone else here posted that a simple boat but a very seaworthy boat is the
way to go.

The story of the FP confirms that thinking.

How did they end up on the reef in the first place? Didn't they know they
were in shallow water?

The whole matter is one big confusion to me.


==================================

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I wouldn't want anyone thinking of buying a boat to read some of the posts
about the FP saga and get the idea that there actually is any such thing as
equity in a used boat. Maybe in the very narrow sense of being the amount
of principle paid down on a purchase loan but not in any way that you can
count on.

Sweat equity in particular evaporates just about as fast as its namesake.
These are simply the harsh facts of the boating life. The people advising
S&L to give up on the FP because of equity just don't have their eye on
the ball.

If I counted the hours I've spent on my boat at yard rates, I have about
fifty grand in a boat that was about half that out of pocket. I would be
lucky to get 18 K for her in this market. We'll be spending about four
thousand this spring to put a Cape Horn windvane and autopilot in her.
After that she'll be worth about eighteen five. It's grim. Raising kids is
pretty grim too, if you look at it that way. It isn't about the money.

FP is probably a quarter million dollar boat if S&L were to count their
sweat equity. If they had made it into Marathon and decided this wasn't
the life for them, they wouldn't have gotten that back. Most of this
effort went into making the FP just the way they wanted her. 95% of that
stuff is still there.

Except for a KISS generator and some other replaceable equipment items,
some sails and rigging (basically consumable items on a sailboat), the
only thing that she won't have after some topside cosmetic work is factory
original tabbing and rudder. That will diminish her value someday but
won't be a concern to S&L until they are ready for assisted living. That
lost value is the only thing, along with some innocence and self
confidence, that they left out on Content Keys.

There is that big salvage bill. That's what insurance is for.

Now, if this had happened on the delivery trip just after they bought the
boat, sure, it might be time to bail. The pay out for the totaled boat
would be close to the purchase price and they wouldn't have the
unrecoverable sweat equity in her yet. Just start over with another boat.

It would also be a different story if they were not capable of doing any
of the work themselves. In that case, they wouldn't be cut out for this
life anyway.

They signed up for adventure; not a beach condo. That's what adventure is,
the unexpected. A few more months of fiberglass work won't be much in the
grand scheme of things after they have twenty or thirty thousand miles
behind them.

--
Roger Long

On Feb 15, 3:11 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote:
Someone else here posted that a simple boat but a very seaworthy boat is the
way to go.

The story of the FP confirms that thinking.

How did they end up on the reef in the first place? Didn't they know they
were in shallow water?

The whole matter is one big confusion to me.

==================================

"Roger Long" wrote in message

Hi:

My take on things afte reading all the posts and reading the Pig Log.

Skip was sleeping.
Lydia was on watch and drove the boat on the beach.

I really enjoyed Lydia's comment regarding how the pig grounded,
"....somehow we were blown off course...." When the person driving the
boat makes such a comment that should be a clue that the driver needs
"how to stear a boat" lessons.

Even more disturbing is why the owner/manager/skipper of a vessel
would alow soemone with that skill lever beind the wheel....at
nitght..... in never before sailed waters..... bla bla bla !

Nice people.......................... but____________________.
Bob

NE Sailboat wrote:

It is a Voyager Windvane.. here is the web site connect:
http://www.voyagerwindvanes.com/Voyager/index.aspx

Could you take a look. Post what your opinion is. Or send me a
direct mail.

As a designer of things marine, I find the simplicity and elegance of the
Cape Horn very appealing, both in appearance and function. They have
certainly proven themselves and the one I am installing is 20 pounds lighter
than the Voyager. That counts for something when it's way out on, beyond
actually, the end of the boat.

The mounting tube of the Cape Horn, with it's struts on the inside, make for
a very strong attachement. I'm not too enthusiastic about the clunky
looking bracket of the Voyager although I'm sure it's actually strong enough
and probably works well. The Cape Horn is so clean and simple it looks like
the boat was designed with it instead of something bolted on later.

The Cape Horn will work just as well with a tiller as a wheel. That is
certainly no reason to pick one over the other. You should get Yves
information packet before deciding. It comes with a DVD of his around the
world sail that is well worth watching. I find videos of other people
sailing almost as boring as videos of other people having sex but I enjoyed
every minute of this one.

--
Roger Long

Bob,, I took a look at the boat on a web page. It was/is a very nice yacht.
Didn't it have all the doo dadds that the boats have for navigation?

I'm not sure what kind of GPS system they have but many of the really good
ones have alarms on them for when the boat gets off course. Were they
piloting ( using nav aids such as buoys, lighthouses, depth, land, etc ) or
navigating offshore?

I'm not that great, by far. But one thing I was taught long ago but a
sailing friend. You are never lost, you know where you are and if where you
are is safe, then don't keep going until where you are is unsafe. As in,, a
reef.

They should have kept that boat offshore, in deep water, no matter what the
conditions until they were able to see a clear channel or get help getting
to a clear channel.

This is a good lesson to all of us who sail. KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, OR STAY
WHERE YOU ARE SINCE WHERE YOU ARE IS A SAFE SPOT.

Many years ago, a sailor friend of mine told me he was coming back from the
Cape toward Portsmouth, NH on his sailboat. This was way before GPS and I
doubt he had loran or anything. He said he was sailing along and then the
fog dropped on him. He could see anything. He watched the depth gage, it
kept going down. When it hit 40 feet, he dropped the hook. He figured he'd
stick it out until the fog lifted. Anyway, he fell asleep. The boat anchor
was holding ok and he said he awoke and the sun was out. He could hear kids
laughing. He runs up on deck .. looks out and he is anchored just off of
Hampton Beach NH. The kids that were laughing were swimming in the surf.
He pulled up the anchor, set sail and off he went. He said if he had kept
on going he would have run right up on the beach.

Next summer I am going to keep the S&L story in the back of my mind. If I
get lost, in the fog or at night and I don't know where I am and have a fix,
or plot, or GPS .. I will sit tight until I can see.

I must say this newsgroup does teach us even if in a weird way.
"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 15, 3:11 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote:
Someone else here posted that a simple boat but a very seaworthy boat is
the
way to go.

The story of the FP confirms that thinking.

How did they end up on the reef in the first place? Didn't they know
they
were in shallow water?

The whole matter is one big confusion to me.

==================================

"Roger Long" wrote in message

Hi:

My take on things afte reading all the posts and reading the Pig Log.

Skip was sleeping.
Lydia was on watch and drove the boat on the beach.

I really enjoyed Lydia's comment regarding how the pig grounded,
"....somehow we were blown off course...." When the person driving the
boat makes such a comment that should be a clue that the driver needs
"how to stear a boat" lessons.

Even more disturbing is why the owner/manager/skipper of a vessel
would alow soemone with that skill lever beind the wheel....at
nitght..... in never before sailed waters..... bla bla bla !

Nice people.......................... but____________________.
Bob

Roger ,, I've talked to Yves, or maybe his son. And I agree with you that
the Cape Horn is a very sweet vane.

I just like the Voyager for the way it would sit on my boat and with my
tiller.

I did send the owner of Voyage a note asking if he shows his product at boat
shows. So far, no reply. I only sent it today.

Did you look at the other models of vanes? The Monitor seems like a popular
model. Another one I like is the Saye's Rig.

I will probably put this off but I keep looking ... and looking.




"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
NE Sailboat wrote:

It is a Voyager Windvane.. here is the web site connect:
http://www.voyagerwindvanes.com/Voyager/index.aspx

Could you take a look. Post what your opinion is. Or send me a
direct mail.

As a designer of things marine, I find the simplicity and elegance of the
Cape Horn very appealing, both in appearance and function. They have
certainly proven themselves and the one I am installing is 20 pounds
lighter than the Voyager. That counts for something when it's way out on,
beyond actually, the end of the boat.

The mounting tube of the Cape Horn, with it's struts on the inside, make
for a very strong attachement. I'm not too enthusiastic about the clunky
looking bracket of the Voyager although I'm sure it's actually strong
enough and probably works well. The Cape Horn is so clean and simple it
looks like the boat was designed with it instead of something bolted on
later.

The Cape Horn will work just as well with a tiller as a wheel. That is
certainly no reason to pick one over the other. You should get Yves
information packet before deciding. It comes with a DVD of his around the
world sail that is well worth watching. I find videos of other people
sailing almost as boring as videos of other people having sex but I
enjoyed every minute of this one.

--
Roger Long

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:51:55 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

Did you look at the other models of vanes? The Monitor seems like a popular
model. Another one I like is the Saye's Rig.

I will probably put this off but I keep looking ... and looking.

Are you convinced that you really need wind vane self steering?

For coastal cruising I have found the small tiller pilots easier to
use, much easier to install, and less expensive.

Wayne ,, I suppose I really don't need a vane. But I have always wanted
one. I just like the idea of a natural way of steering using the wind,
point of sail,etc.

Kinda nuts I guess.

===============
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:51:55 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

Did you look at the other models of vanes? The Monitor seems like a
popular
model. Another one I like is the Saye's Rig.

I will probably put this off but I keep looking ... and looking.

Are you convinced that you really need wind vane self steering?

For coastal cruising I have found the small tiller pilots easier to
use, much easier to install, and less expensive.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:07:16 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

Wayne ,, I suppose I really don't need a vane. But I have always wanted
one. I just like the idea of a natural way of steering using the wind,
point of sail,etc.

Kinda nuts I guess.

I felt the same way at one time, having always had a fascination for
complex mechanical assemblies. There is definitely something cool
about the appearance of the older vanes. It was also the mark of a
boat that had been places.

The installation effort looks like a nightmare however, and you end up
with a lot of weight and clutter on the stern, all of it highly
exposed to the elements and docking mishaps. There is also a certain
hazzard involved. I believe it was either Hal Roth's wife or Lin
Pardey who once got her hand caught up in the mechanism, causing
serious injury of course.