I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience.
TIA

In article ,
wrote:

I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience.
TIA

I have owned a Dutchman and Lazy Jack system. My Dad had Roller Furling.

His system fouled once which given his age was a b_tch.

Dutchman and Lazy Jacks work great. For semi-single handing, either
makes life easier. However, both really require heading into the wind to
drop the sail. I believe there are a few Lazy Jack systems (e.g., EZ Jax
and Jiffy Jax, etc.).

I prefer my Dutchman for two reasons. First, nothing is more magical
than having one's sail automatically flake on the boom. Not only does
the sail stay up, it stores itself automatically after a brief training
period. Elegant and time saving, especially with a longer boat.

Second, my Lazy Jack system required going forward to unclip the lines
(if I did not clip them to the mast they rattled around or flapped
against the main). My Dutchman is always there, invisible and silent. I
do have to adjust the topping lift before and after raising and lowering
the main, but I rigged the line back to my cockpit and it takes seconds.

Neither system interferes with reefing (if anything, the Dutchman helps
keep the excess sail out of the way).

If I did not respond to a concern you have for these two systems, just
ask.

Harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

In article ,
Harlan Lachman wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience.
TIA

I agree with everything Harlan said... I have the Dutchman on my
boat... works great and the "training period" for the sail was very,
very short. I've used LJs a lot, and I like them fine. My experience
with them is that they tend to catch battens on the way up, which is
really annoying, especially when single-handing. I just want to do it
one time, not up/down, up/down. That's why I went with the
Dutchman. Neither, as Harlan said will interfere with reefing, but I
do like the Dutchman better here also... fewer lines in your face.

The downside to the Dutchman is two-fold... you have to modify your
main and you have to modify your sail cover. Thus, you can just slap
on a new main when it needs to get replaced if you want to continue to
use the Dutchman system.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
lid (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
Harlan Lachman wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience.
TIA

I agree with everything Harlan said... I have the Dutchman on my
boat... works great and the "training period" for the sail was very,
very short. I've used LJs a lot, and I like them fine. My experience
with them is that they tend to catch battens on the way up, which is
really annoying, especially when single-handing. I just want to do it
one time, not up/down, up/down. That's why I went with the
Dutchman. Neither, as Harlan said will interfere with reefing, but I
do like the Dutchman better here also... fewer lines in your face.

The downside to the Dutchman is two-fold... you have to modify your
main and you have to modify your sail cover. Thus, you can just slap
on a new main when it needs to get replaced if you want to continue to
use the Dutchman system.

Cap JG,

On my main sail cover, all they did was take my existing one, see where
the dutchman lines showed up on the boom and sew in zippers to allow the
lines to come out the top. IIRC, I have three on a J/100. What approach
did you take?

I forgot that I did have to go to add a loose foot to my footless main
but otherwise there were no mods and no one sailing her has seen any
performance or sailing issues.

You also point out one weakness of the furling main for those who like
battens (especially full ones for light air). Don't most furling mains
preclude battens?

h

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

The comments on lazy jacks and the Dutchman are excellent.

furling mains
They do jam at the worst times.
I had one start to come out of the grove, which meant I could not unfurl the
whole sail.
Because battens cannnot be used, the roach is nil is negative. On boats
with high roach mains, like Hunters, roller furling takes out a huge sail
area.

Jack


--
__________________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
Director, Swiftsure Sailing Academy
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
__________________________________________________


wrote in message
news
I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience.
TIA

In article ,
Harlan Lachman wrote:
Cap JG,

On my main sail cover, all they did was take my existing one, see where
the dutchman lines showed up on the boom and sew in zippers to allow the
lines to come out the top. IIRC, I have three on a J/100. What approach
did you take?

I did the exact same thing myself, except that I did the cutting and
sewing... Not a bad job, depsite my lack of sewing machine skills. :-)

I forgot that I did have to go to add a loose foot to my footless main
but otherwise there were no mods and no one sailing her has seen any
performance or sailing issues.

You also point out one weakness of the furling main for those who like
battens (especially full ones for light air). Don't most furling mains
preclude battens?

I was actually talking about getting hooked on the LJs while raising
the main (no furler), but I believe that's true about not having them
available for in-mast furlers. I supposed something could work for a
boom furler... no experience with battens and furling mains, however.

I also removed the dangling intermediate lines the last owner had on
the main. The Dutchman does a nice job of keeping things tidy.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

On Feb 22, 3:37 am, wrote:
I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience.
TIA

I had the Dutchman system on my recently sold boat and have sailed on
boats with Lazy Jacks. My next boat will have Lazy Jacks without
question. I would not use an in mast or in boom furling system.
Although I have never used one, I have heard enough complaints about
the difficulty of reefing in nasty conditions that safety would
override conveniece. In mast reefing also means a big fat mast which
means more windage, less effective main sail (due to greater
disruption of air flow around the fat mast) and more weight aloft. All
bad things in my opinion.

I found the Dutchman and LJ systems were about the same in ease of use
and had about the same level of sensitivety to wind direction when
lowering (you need to head straight into the wind for both). The thing
I didn't like about the Dutchman, besdes the need for widgets in the
sail and additional seams/zippers in the sail cover, is that the lines
are constantly rubbing against the sail. I got some chafing of the
sail and also ended up with stains on the sails where the lines touch
the sail. Not sure of the cause (rain water running down the lines
concentrating the dirt??). This was after 2 years of moderate use.

The biggest reason I prefer lazy jacks is because I am lazy and I love
the lazy bags (there are various names for them but I am talking about
the sail cover that is attached to the lower ends of he lazy jack
lines and the boom). You simply drop the sail into the cover and then
zip it up. No more removing, stowing and then replacing the sail cover
on a regular basis. I imagine one of these boom mounted sail covers
could be added to a dutchman rigged sail but you would then need
additional lines to hold up the sides of the sail cover.

-Greg

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Feb 22, 3:37 am, wrote:
I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own
experience.
TIA

I had the Dutchman system on my recently sold boat and have sailed on
boats with Lazy Jacks. My next boat will have Lazy Jacks without
question. I would not use an in mast or in boom furling system.
Although I have never used one, I have heard enough complaints about
the difficulty of reefing in nasty conditions that safety would
override conveniece. In mast reefing also means a big fat mast which
means more windage, less effective main sail (due to greater
disruption of air flow around the fat mast) and more weight aloft. All
bad things in my opinion.

I found the Dutchman and LJ systems were about the same in ease of use
and had about the same level of sensitivety to wind direction when
lowering (you need to head straight into the wind for both). The thing
I didn't like about the Dutchman, besdes the need for widgets in the
sail and additional seams/zippers in the sail cover, is that the lines
are constantly rubbing against the sail. I got some chafing of the
sail and also ended up with stains on the sails where the lines touch
the sail. Not sure of the cause (rain water running down the lines
concentrating the dirt??). This was after 2 years of moderate use.

The biggest reason I prefer lazy jacks is because I am lazy and I love
the lazy bags (there are various names for them but I am talking about
the sail cover that is attached to the lower ends of he lazy jack
lines and the boom). You simply drop the sail into the cover and then
zip it up. No more removing, stowing and then replacing the sail cover
on a regular basis. I imagine one of these boom mounted sail covers
could be added to a dutchman rigged sail but you would then need
additional lines to hold up the sides of the sail cover.

-Greg

It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping
the sail..

I'm not a big fan of furling mains either, but if I had to pick, I'd pick
the in-boom system. At least you can drop the sail if there's a problem with
the halyard. With the in-mast species, you're pretty much stuck.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message


It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping
the sail..

We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks.

Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on
Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then
position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook.

Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing.
When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail,
pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up.

The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of
the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept
up by tension.

I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all
the reasons previously cited...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message


It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time
I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise
the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with
dropping
the sail..

We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks.

Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on
Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then
position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook.

Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The
extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just
deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised or
lowered.


Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing.
When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail,
pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up.

The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of
the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept
up by tension.

I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's
just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in
completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in.

I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all
the reasons previously cited...

L8R

Skip



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com