Hi group

OK, now I've exhausted my search around usenet and the wider web for
information on this topic I thought I'd post for some fresh thoughts and
ideas.

I'm considering buying a wooden boat as a liveaboard, and I have some
major concerns. Almost everyone I come across - surveyors, brokers,
finance houses, insurance companies, usenet posters - seems to balk at
it to lesser or greater degrees. It seems established that they require
regular and vigilant maintenance. I don't want to buy a money pit, and
two marinas I've come across are so fed up with people abandoning wooden
boats they won't allow them. Any thoughts on this?

I've been quoted GBP950 (about $1800) for a survey on the hard, and the
surveyor will do an initial walk-through to see if it's worth going
ahead even to that stage. It's 45 feet long, and is carvel constructed.
I don't yet know the year or specific hull material. The beams are
about 2" x 2". I'm going to go along tomorrow and try to have as many
of the floorboards up as possible so that I can go through with a
bradawl and check for sponginess.

Think I should not risk it and try and find myself a nice tongue in
cheekeasy/ steel-shell?

Biz

biz wrote:
Hi group

OK, now I've exhausted my search around usenet and the wider web for
information on this topic I thought I'd post for some fresh thoughts and
ideas.

I'm considering buying a wooden boat as a liveaboard, and I have some
major concerns. Almost everyone I come across - surveyors, brokers,
finance houses, insurance companies, usenet posters - seems to balk at
it to lesser or greater degrees. It seems established that they require
regular and vigilant maintenance. I don't want to buy a money pit, and
two marinas I've come across are so fed up with people abandoning wooden
boats they won't allow them. Any thoughts on this?

I've been quoted GBP950 (about $1800) for a survey on the hard, and the
surveyor will do an initial walk-through to see if it's worth going
ahead even to that stage. It's 45 feet long, and is carvel constructed.
I don't yet know the year or specific hull material. The beams are
about 2" x 2". I'm going to go along tomorrow and try to have as many
of the floorboards up as possible so that I can go through with a
bradawl and check for sponginess.

Think I should not risk it and try and find myself a nice tongue in
cheekeasy/ steel-shell?

Biz

There is nothing wrong with wooden boats except
that wood may deteriorate in water and is food for
some water creatures.

On the positive side:

1) they are easy to maintain if you know what
to do and how to do it.
2) The materials are easy to work with and
readily available.
3) Fairly large wooden boats are usually
available at a small fraction of the cost for a
similar fiberglass boat. (At our marina one of
the tenants was living aboard a 60' wooden boat
that was given to him after he rescued it when it
sank at the dock.)

In order to make them easier to maintain, some
wooden boat owners cover the outside of the hull
with a fairly thin layer of fiberglass to keep the
water and critters away. There are many workboats
that have been treated in this way.

If a wood boat is what you want, I'd say go ahead
and get one. You'll know within a few years
whether it is still what you want ;-)

Luck,

Don W.

Don W wrote:

In order to make them easier to maintain, some wooden boat owners cover
the outside of the hull with a fairly thin layer of fiberglass to keep
the water and critters away. There are many workboats that have been
treated in this way.

Thanks for that, Don. My very first foray into wooden boat maintenance
was to buy a 1950's GP14 sailing dinghy last summer. On telling an
expert it had been sheathed in glass fibre, his response was "it's a
write-off". He said the only reason you'd sheath a wooden boat in glass
is if the rot has gone beyond repair and you want to eek a couple more
seasons out of it.

Also, I thought glass would prevent the wood from expanding and lead to
it busting itself apart? It seems like such an easy solution, but I've
read that it's death to a wooden boat.

If a wood boat is what you want, I'd say go ahead and get one. You'll
know within a few years whether it is still what you want ;-)

My worst scenario is getting a loan to pay for the boat, being unable to
fund the ongoing repairs and maintenance and landing up with nowhere to
live. Quite a lot riding on the risk, you might think!!

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:19:40 +0000, biz
wrote:
My worst scenario is getting a loan to pay for the boat, being unable to
fund the ongoing repairs and maintenance and landing up with nowhere to
live. Quite a lot riding on the risk, you might think!!

I seriously doubt you will be able to find either a loan, or insurance
for a wooden boat. Especially one that needs work. If you can't do it
"out of pocket" from existing funds, then I'd say you need a new plan
with a different boat.

I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed rate
6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings actually, but I
don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But then I'll need quite
a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and any hull-work that needs
doing while it's on the hard.

I can handle the thought of annual haul-out and re-painting, but what
keeps me awake at night is possible re-planking running into thousands
that will effectively write it off, and with it my home. I'll be
saddled with still paying off the loan while having to pay rent
somewhere, plus I may have to pay thousands to dispose of the boat!

In fact I don't expect I'd get that far from the results of the survey.

* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:19:40 +0000, biz
wrote:
My worst scenario is getting a loan to pay for the boat, being unable
to fund the ongoing repairs and maintenance and landing up with
nowhere to live. Quite a lot riding on the risk, you might think!!

I seriously doubt you will be able to find either a loan, or insurance
for a wooden boat. Especially one that needs work. If you can't do it
"out of pocket" from existing funds, then I'd say you need a new plan
with a different boat.

I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed rate
6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings actually, but I
don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But then I'll need quite
a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and any hull-work that needs
doing while it's on the hard.


So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

I can handle the thought of annual haul-out and re-painting,

You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat.
They won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is cheap.
I don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they
certainly wouldn't to replace planks.

but what
keeps me awake at night is possible re-planking running into thousands
that will effectively write it off, and with it my home. I'll be
saddled with still paying off the loan while having to pay rent
somewhere, plus I may have to pay thousands to dispose of the boat!

In fact I don't expect I'd get that far from the results of the survey.

With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you
consider a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the
basic hull survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up
medium size problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without
worrying that you're throwing good money after bad.

Jeff wrote:
* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed
rate 6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings
actually, but I don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But
then I'll need quite a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and any
hull-work that needs doing while it's on the hard.

So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

Heh - I have found an insurer that's quoted me 400-500 quid. Got a
couple more leads to try too.

You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat. They
won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is cheap. I
don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they certainly
wouldn't to replace planks.

It's currently owned by the owner of the marina. He's hauled it himself
in the past couple of months to paint the underside.

With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you consider
a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the basic hull
survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up medium size
problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without worrying that
you're throwing good money after bad.

Yes, the economics of this are interesting. There's a magazine article
I haven't read but have seen referred to that tots up the cost including
initial outlay and ongoing maintenance and compares GRP to wood.
Comes out about even. Then it's a question of whether you're interested
in actually doing the work, year on year.

I can't get a mortgage on a wood boat, and so have limited my budget to
GBP10k (not including survey 1.5k, 1st year's insurance 0.5k and
immediate work 2k). I could get a mortgage on a glass or steel boat
(even then I can only get a 75% mortgage, so unless I get a loan to make
up the rest this only extends my budget to around 12k).

Another thing that keeps me awake at night is if wooden boats are hard
to sell.

I have to agree with Jeff. You must have a LOT of time or a VERY LOT of
money to own a wooden boat. Also you do not want to have to spend all of
your time fixing your boat, you want to spend the majority of your time
sailing her.

Ansley Sawyer
SV Pacem

It's been said that you don't own a wooden boat, you rent it.
At least boats you can't store inside.
"biz" wrote in message
...
Hi group

OK, now I've exhausted my search around usenet and the wider web for
information on this topic I thought I'd post for some fresh thoughts and
ideas.

I'm considering buying a wooden boat as a liveaboard, and I have some
major concerns. Almost everyone I come across - surveyors, brokers,
finance houses, insurance companies, usenet posters - seems to balk at it
to lesser or greater degrees. It seems established that they require
regular and vigilant maintenance. I don't want to buy a money pit, and
two marinas I've come across are so fed up with people abandoning wooden
boats they won't allow them. Any thoughts on this?

I've been quoted GBP950 (about $1800) for a survey on the hard, and the
surveyor will do an initial walk-through to see if it's worth going ahead
even to that stage. It's 45 feet long, and is carvel constructed. I don't
yet know the year or specific hull material. The beams are about 2" x 2".
I'm going to go along tomorrow and try to have as many of the floorboards
up as possible so that I can go through with a bradawl and check for
sponginess.

Think I should not risk it and try and find myself a nice tongue in
cheekeasy/ steel-shell?

Biz

* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:53 PM:
Jeff wrote:
* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed
rate 6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings
actually, but I don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But
then I'll need quite a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and
any hull-work that needs doing while it's on the hard.

So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

Heh - I have found an insurer that's quoted me 400-500 quid. Got a
couple more leads to try too.

You should compare that to a comparably sized glass boat to see what
the premium is. Perhaps they are more forgiving on your side of the
pond; perhaps the wooden boat there are newer than here in the States.


You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat.
They won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is
cheap. I don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they
certainly wouldn't to replace planks.

It's currently owned by the owner of the marina. He's hauled it himself
in the past couple of months to paint the underside.

Uh, its easy for the yard owner to make an exception for himself. You
should ask around at nearby marinas to see if there is any issue in
your area.



With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you
consider a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the
basic hull survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up
medium size problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without
worrying that you're throwing good money after bad.

Yes, the economics of this are interesting. There's a magazine article
I haven't read but have seen referred to that tots up the cost including
initial outlay and ongoing maintenance and compares GRP to wood. Comes
out about even. Then it's a question of whether you're interested in
actually doing the work, year on year.

I have friends that have lived aboard, and followed a migratory
lifestyle for the last 27 years. They do a huge amount of maintenance
work on their boat, partly because they like to by mainly because they
can't afford to pay any one else. Their current boat is a 41 foot
glass boat, which they bought pretty cheap but has probably gone up in
value with all the work that's gone into it. I doubt very much
whether they could have done this with a wooden boat. In fact, their
first larger boat was wood, and they spent more time working on it
than sailing - when they decided to live aboard they sold it and moved
to glass.


I can't get a mortgage on a wood boat, and so have limited my budget to
GBP10k (not including survey 1.5k, 1st year's insurance 0.5k and
immediate work 2k). I could get a mortgage on a glass or steel boat
(even then I can only get a 75% mortgage, so unless I get a loan to make
up the rest this only extends my budget to around 12k).

500 pounds for insurance on a 10K hull? That's 5%. Does that include
hull insurance or just liability?


Another thing that keeps me awake at night is if wooden boats are hard
to sell.

Certainly your market is reduced.

"biz" wrote in message
...
Hi group

OK, now I've exhausted my search around usenet and the wider web for
information on this topic I thought I'd post for some fresh thoughts and
ideas.

I'm considering buying a wooden boat as a liveaboard, and I have some
major concerns. Almost everyone I come across - surveyors, brokers,
finance houses, insurance companies, usenet posters - seems to balk at it
to lesser or greater degrees. It seems established that they require
regular and vigilant maintenance. I don't want to buy a money pit, and
two marinas I've come across are so fed up with people abandoning wooden
boats they won't allow them. Any thoughts on this?

I've been quoted GBP950 (about $1800) for a survey on the hard, and the
surveyor will do an initial walk-through to see if it's worth going ahead
even to that stage. It's 45 feet long, and is carvel constructed. I don't
yet know the year or specific hull material. The beams are about 2" x 2".
I'm going to go along tomorrow and try to have as many of the floorboards
up as possible so that I can go through with a bradawl and check for
sponginess.

Think I should not risk it and try and find myself a nice tongue in
cheekeasy/ steel-shell?

Biz



Biz:

For about 20 years I was such a wooden boat nut I built a couple and
subscribed to WoodenBoat magazine religiously.

That's what it is. A religion.

Boats are built of wood because it was at one time the superior material.
Better than reeds (on the Nile) for example. Or hides. Even ships were
built of wood.

Until iron (first) and then steel came along.

And for smaller boats fiberglass.

Substitutions are usually made because a superior technology has emerged.

Sure, stick with wood for purposes of tradition and nostaglia. NOT for
practical reasons of maintenance and durability. And certainly not for
economy. Here, as everywhere, you get what you pay for.

So ponder first: do you want to be a boat maintainer? (I have a friend who
LOVES to take care of his wooden boat. Nothing wrong with that. That's his
hobby. He doesn't pretend to be a sailor.) Or do you want to spend more of
your time boating (or, for a liveaboard, living?)

The choice is clear if you REALLY know what you want.

Best,

Dick B.
M/V "Annie" (a fiberglass tugboat)