On 9 Mar 2007 16:19:58 -0800, "tlindly" wrote:

On Mar 9, 11:26 pm, Charlie Morgan wrote:

will ever know. Maybe Bin Laden was in one of them. Again, we'll never know.

No, that wasn't him. I just saw him heading south on the 101
yesterday during
commuter hours. mid 80's volvo, dark. Careful, he doesn't use his
turn signals
when changing lanes...

My God!

I'd like to say that I'm really glad that I am not a citizen of the
land of the free where during my last visit enroute back to my boat
someone informed me that it was the only country in the world with
democracy, freedom of speech and freedom to pursue happiness.

I can't because I may be accused of being anti-American.

I think I prefer living where we have a despotic parlimentary two
party government headed nominally by the tyranical Queen of England; a
country that the US senate debated sending in troops when we elected a
labour "socialist" party in the 1930s; where we don't worship the
flag; where education and medical care is free for all and it is
illegal to catch a fish (schnapper) less than a foot long.

I guess that's why so many Americans are retiring there.

I'd like to say all of this but I'll hold my tongue out of respect for
the single American I met during 5 days who knew where New Zealand is
and that it wasn't south of Ireland nor up by Oregon.

Peter

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:12:30 -0600, Don W
wrote:


I guess that's why so many Americans are retiring there.

I'd like to say all of this but I'll hold my tongue out of respect for
the single American I met during 5 days who knew where New Zealand is
and that it wasn't south of Ireland nor up by Oregon.

Peter

Hey Peter,

Its not really as bad as some people are making it
out. I'll bet everything ends up working out just
fine. If not, I'll join you down in Maori
land--at least during the summers ;-)

Don W.

Hi Don,
You're welcome any time but you may miss the paranoia and general
rudeness of some of your border control officials, or those security
people roped in to fill a gap. You won't be shouted at "I said. Remove
your jacket!!" and other such rudenesses I have seen directed at your
own citizens. You will probably think the Immigration or Customs
officers want a tip when they call you "Sir". You may miss the Police
not carrying guns or sidearms or even a baton.

I know that it's not as bad as all that. I have travelled a little in
the States on several occasions and generally met nothing but very
friendly people and kind and helpful policemen. I got lost driving in
Providence, Rhode Island on my way back to Boston from Mystic Seaport
once and got invited home for dinner by one of a pair of policemen.

The growth of the siege mentality saddens me though, especially when
one realises that it does not make America safer and that Americans
(and Australians) have willing given away rights and freedoms that
previously they would have vigorously defended. Thomas Jefferson comes
to mind with his "Those who give up freedom in order to gain security
shall have, nor do they deserve, neither".

Perhaps Larry may be right. The blowing up of the Maine in 1898 to
forment the Spanish-American War comes to mind. History is full of
governments who burnt their own Reichstag.

I actually haven't been back to N.Z. since we sailed away in '96 and
live between Sydney, Australia and Malaysia where I work for Marine
Customs. There, they don't bother with yachts. The only time I stopped
a yacht was to hail it from the flying bridge of a 32 metre patrol
boat as I thought it was a friend. No paperwork, no inspections. Just
anchor or moor and wander up to Immigration. At the Johor Bahru base
there is even a pontoon with water supplied for yachtees to tie up
their dinghies securely (24 hour armed guard) whilst they walk five
minutes to the causeway bus link to Singapore. You can leave your
yacht in the country as long as you like.

The main border protection tasks are to stop smuggling of heroin (from
golden triangle to the West - automatic death penalty), cigarettes
from Indonesia and other dutiable items and illegal immigrants,
especially young children for the sex trade. Prevention of the piracy
and theft of big ships in the Malacca Straits is also a major part of
the role. To do this, new patrol boats have been built in various
sizes such as 17 metre, 2,500 HP turbo charged diesels that do over 55
knots armed with GPMGs. To zoom around in one of these (especially
with air-con) after doing 5 knots all day in a sailboat is simply
divine.

Sorry, I digress

cheers
Peter

In the thread "the beginning of the end" Larry wrote:

If I leave the country and come back, any other way, I'm inspected by
border agents....plane, train, car....but not yacht. We leave Florida
and go 250 miles to catch the Gulf Stream. We drop out of the stream 90
miles S of Charleston and sail into Charleston Harbor. We are never
stopped, never questioned, never challenged...even by calling us on the
radio. CG can't find us if we're in trouble without our 406 EPIRB
lighting their way, so I know they haven't been tracking us on some
sophisticated satellite system the military runs or they could. When we
sail up the Charleston Jetties in the ship channel from sea, we never
see
anyone! We could BE anyone. The boat has no positive identifying
markers of any kind. It says, "Lionheart - Atlanta, GA" across the
stern
but we could have had that painted on her while they loaded her
thermonuclear device into the V-berth in (pick any port).

They really DO have a point. The Mexican border isn't anywhere NEAR as
open as the South Carolina Coast! Any boat from anywhere can come
ashore, even right up the main shipping channel into Charleston and
NOONE
IS TRACKING THEM! NADA! There's no picket ships at the 3-mile limit, a
really ABSURD edge of the US waters, when it should be 200 miles and
HEAVILY defended from all intruders, foreign and domestic. I could set
off a hydrogen bomb in INTERNATIONAL waters 3-miles off NYC, out of the
jurisdiction of the US Gummit by its own stupidity and make the WTC
inside job look like a pittance! The crater from a BIG bomb is 5 miles
across....inland to New Jersey! How stupid is that?

The USA needs shoreline RADAR and SOSUS and must force EVERY vessel that
leaves/enters the 200 mile exclusion zone to be fully transponding
AIS....JUST LIKE THE AIRPLANES squawk IFF. Hell, you could dock the
bomb
8 miles up the Ashley River in front of my house, and be 800 yards from
the main gate of the Charleston Air Force Base and NOONE WOULD KNOW OR
SEEM TO CARE YOU WERE THERE.

Of course, this assumes America is under attack from WITHOUT, which it
was not. America was attacked from WITHIN, by its own government. 9-11
wasn't the first time or the first hairbrained scenario to come from the
isolated Pentagon stupidity machine.....set to blow up bogus airliners
over Cuba to coerce Americans into a pre-emptive invasion against
Castro....remember? If W and the NeoCons had been in that seat, instead
of a dove Democrat, Cuba would be like Beirut, today.

Larry
--
CAUTION - STAY AWAY FROM THE HIGHLY RADIOACTIVE US/MEXICAN BORDER.
(after my plan to dump all nuclear waste 1 mile inland from it.)

I tried to post a reply four different times and none of them would
post. I did a test and my server is working just fine but the reply to
the above post won't come through.

Could it be Echelon is intercepting or blocking all replys because of so
many "key words" in the message. So, I'm starting a new thread. Let's
see if anybody can reply to this one.

Here's my reply to Larry that I posted four times and it was lost or
blocked. Hmmmm
will it work this way???

REPLY: You were doing OK until you regurgitated the above pabulum. Then
you
started sounding like a typical liberal wack job nut case. Twilight Zone
brain-dead moron material. Do do do do, do do do do, do do do do...

The point is don't harass American citizens. Put the emphasis on
illegals. And you don't need passports to determine if somebody is an
American Citizen. There's already the Big Brother computer with just
about every detail of your life in it. I recently got a T-Mobile cell
phone and they said they had to check real good so nobody could do the
identity fraud thing in somebody's else's name. The transferred me to
another dept. all within one minute and the other dept. asked me about
six questions like what make and color was my car, where did my oldest
brother's wife work, in which state was I born, a multiple choice of
companies I worked for, etc. Stuff no imposter could answer. If a phone
company can do it on a minutes notice to verify an identity surely the
federal govt. can do as well or better.

And lose the conspiracy crap, Larry. You sound sensible so why believe
conspiracy crap that has no proof whatsoever?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Mar 9, 11:26 pm, Charlie Morgan wrote:

will ever know. Maybe Bin Laden was in one of them. Again, we'll never know.

No, that wasn't him. I just saw him heading south on the 101
yesterday during
commuter hours. mid 80's volvo, dark. Careful, he doesn't use his
turn signals
when changing lanes...

Yah right. Go ahead and believe your nutcase explanations. But at least
ask yourself one thing. Where is the aircraft and where are the
pasengers and crew? Just vanished into thin air? Lost in the Bermuda
triangle? Ha ah ah a ha hah ha hha h ah hahaha!

I have a personal friend who saw with his own eyes the airliner strike
the Pentagon. It flew right over his building and when he heard the very
loud scream of the jet engines he looked out a window. He saw it from
the rear quarter; tail, wings and all striking the Pentagon in a big
cloud of dust, smoke and fire. So, go ahead believe what you will. It'll
make you happy and it won't change the facts. You nut jobs have to have
something weird to believe in so it might as well be that.

Wilbur Hubbard


Gentlemen,
Is it just possible that people can have their say, refute or rebut
information and arguments in a non-derisive manner without resorting
to abusive language.

Surely in this civilised world with all its education and
sophistication it is not necessary to belittle someone with whom one
does not agree. I may or may not agree with such as Larry but I will
defend his right to freely express his views with hindrance. Part of
the right to freedom of speech is to be allowed to have one's say. If
one kept quiet through fear of potential abuse and ridicule then one
would be effectively denied that freedom to speak. Bullying tactics
have no place when seeking the truth. Such as Kepler, Da Vinci,
Galileo and others will attest to this. It is not that long ago the
The Church and learned men believed firmly in a flat earth even though
Eritosthenes of Alexandria proved it to be not and even measured its
diameter remarkably accurately in Ptolemaic Egypt.

cheers
Peter

Nothing to do with boating but......,

If all good people were clever,
and all clever people were good,
the world would be nicer than ever,
I thought that it possibly could.
But, somehow it is seldom or never,
that the two get along as they should,
for the good are so cruel to the clever,
and the clever so harsh to the good

Mary Wordsworth
(sister of Bill who ponced through the bloody daffidols)

Peter Hendra wrote:

My God!

I'd like to say that I'm really glad that I am not a citizen of the
land of the free where during my last visit enroute back to my boat
someone informed me that it was the only country in the world with
democracy, freedom of speech and freedom to pursue happiness.

I can't because I may be accused of being anti-American.

I think I prefer living where we have a despotic parlimentary two
party government headed nominally by the tyranical Queen of England; a
country that the US senate debated sending in troops when we elected a
labour "socialist" party in the 1930s; where we don't worship the
flag; where education and medical care is free for all and it is
illegal to catch a fish (schnapper) less than a foot long.

I guess that's why so many Americans are retiring there.

I'd like to say all of this but I'll hold my tongue out of respect for
the single American I met during 5 days who knew where New Zealand is
and that it wasn't south of Ireland nor up by Oregon.

Peter

Hey Peter,

Its not really as bad as some people are making it
out. I'll bet everything ends up working out just
fine. If not, I'll join you down in Maori
land--at least during the summers ;-)

Don W.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:04:55 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
news:4KydnSC63OcUbG_YnZ2dnUVZ_rCsnZ2d@centurytel. net...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

No, you are incorrect. There comes a point when any sane man cannot
let wack job nutcases have a say on an equal footing with the factual
and the sensible.

Should that Islamic fascist, Ahmadenijad, who says the holocaust
never happened and that Israel should be wiped off the face of the
map, be given equal time with legitimate historians who don't deny
the holocaust? Hell no! People like that should be shouted down and
have rotten vegetable tossed in their faces. The more you let people
spout their total nonsense on equal footing with reasonable
explanations the more you lend them credence. The more you lower the
bar for the reasonable and the sensible. I believe in letting
everybody have their say. But, I also believe what people say should
have consequences. If you say something stupid and obnoxious enough
then, if somebody after hearing you out decides to punch your right
in the nose, you learn real fast that actions have consequences and
talking crap might just get you crapped on. You've heard the old
saying that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes accepted
fact? That's the trouble with allowing wack job conspiracists to
remain unchallenged. You MUST not only challenge their flaky ideas
but you must point out that they cannot think clearly either. You
must show their inferior intellects are not capable of rational
thought. In other words their ideas reveal their brain function.
Dumb, stupid conspiracy ideas = dumb, stupid conspiracy brain.

The widespread belief in human caused global warming is a good
example of what happens when you let a bunch of nutjobs spout their
nonsense ad nausea over a period of years without challenge. It
becomes a religion. A totally irrational religion based on belief and
not on facts. That's why it's important not only to refute nonsense
but identify individuals who spout nonsense as fact as defective
mentally.

Wilbur Hubbard

So you endorse the initiation of physical violence against people who
say things you find overtly offensive?


Yes! It's a time-honored tradition.

Wilbur Hubbard

Sounds like current American foreign policy to me.

Wait, Why doesn't one of you punch Mr Bush on the nose given this
logic? Every news item Ii see him on has him stating "weapons of mass
destruction" when they haven't found any and "War on terrorism in
Iraq" when Al Khaida and Sadam were sworn enemies and his terrorism
was aimed solely as his own citizens.

cheers,
"Waiting for Wilbur"
Peter

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:34:11 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:



And Mr. B's an example of a total hypocrite. Rather than read, listen
and argue and perhaps toss a rotten tomato if highly offended, this Rube
won't even listen. His is a closed mind. And notice the happy reference
to "Killfile". In other words, it's not good enough to just walk away
and not listen he must kill (even if figuratively) the speaker. And to
carry it one step further he happily instructs others to kill as well.
This is exactly the kind of pompous, creepy nut case to whom I refer. He
advocates peace, harmony and non-violence on one hand yet he happily
kills on the other.

How can an individual like this live with himself? Clearly it's only by
sticking his head in the sand to somewhat rid his senses of the reek
that emanates from his foul, fetid frame of mind.

Wilbur Hubbard

forgive me, I should have remembered....

When an ass brays, one does not have to bray back

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:08:04 GMT, Don W
wrote:



Peter, I've been in and out of the US many times
since 9/11 and have not personally witnessed the
type of behavior you are refering to. I don't
doubt that it occured, but it was an isolated
incident, and not the norm.


The USA is still mostly that way. We are just
getting a lot more bad press these days.


I think history will show that the security
changes are temporary. There were similar things
done during WWII, but they stopped as soon as the
war ended. Unfortunately, we are _really_ at war
at present although not in a traditional war with
another nation state. Furthermore, our adversary
has shown itself to favor attacks on unprotected
civilians.

It seems your mind is made up that the Maine was
blown up by the US Government to give it an excuse
to intervene in Cuba. Doing a little bit of
Google research, it appears that your conclusion
is controversial, and not well supported by the
evidence.

Unlike Herr Hitler, or even present day Hugo
Chavez, there has been no attempt in the USA to
change the constitution in a "one-off" election to
allow a single party to hold power continually.
In fact, the Republican party has now lost control
of both houses of congress, and the Democrats are
in control. The political story of this
week--Congressional hearings on FBI abuses of
power during the last several years. The pendulum
is swinging back the other direction even as we
write. Unlike a lot of people, I have faith that
our system will correct itself.

Sounds great. That is the way it should be.
Fortunately, Singapore and Australia have not been
directly attacked, and so have not developed
"paranoia" yet.



Regards,

Don W.

Hi Don,

I do so hope that you are right that the pendalum is swinging back.
The events of the past few years are rather scary as viewed from the
outside. It would be sad if the great American experiment were to end
up just as that - an experiment. I have always been an admirer of what
the US purports to stand for and though I would not really care to
live there, it is a great place to visit.

People are generally the same world wide, and the US is no exception,
but I was recently priviledged to meet a real gem who runs a
ramshackle restaurant - "Joanie's Place" converted from an old garage
on the east-west road through the Everglades. Joanie is in her late
60s and makes the most fantastic key lime pie and fried green tomatos
amongst other culinary delights. She was kind enough to show me how to
cook them and give me some recipes. I would prefer to think of
Americans as such as Joanie, the National Park rangers, the helpful
people in the motels and the many others who went out of their way to
help and talk to a stranger. Forget the stars and stripes, it flies
above used car lots which sort of desecrates it in a way. Key Lime Pie
(with whipped cream of course) should be your national emblem and Mark
Twain (I seldom meet an American who has read him excepting maybe "Tom
Sawyer"), Ernest Hemmingway, O Henry and a few such should be elected
to your senate as senior statesmen.

It is unfortunate that you are all getting tarred by the same bad
press.

By the way, we in South East Asia also have to guard against terrorism
including both fundamental Christian and Islamic groups such as in
Indonesia. However, I would like to say that killing non-combatants is
strictly prohibited by the Koran and is thus un-Islamic and abhorant
to most Moslems of my aquaintance. You may only make war on those who
bear arms against you. The Turkish armies for example carried a small
Koran tied to their battle standards so that the Law of the Koran
would enter conquered cities before them.

cheers
Peter