On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:57:08 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:46:24 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

My preference is gunkholing in the Keys. You're welcome to tag along,
but a lot of it requires 18"' draft and beaching. We could race down
from Port Charlotte. I'll have plenty of gas, most of it used in the
Coleman stove. Have a good trip!

Well, that's what our dinghy is for - different boats for different
trips. We'll have to go through the Keys on our way north since the
Ortona Lock is scheduled to be closed on the Okeechobee Waterway.

http://www.cruisersnet.net/index.php...6_articleid=15

Maybe they'll push it back to July, and you can traverse.
How do you like boating that piece?
Stopped there on the road once and had fried gator.
Pretty good.

--Vic

Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:14:40 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

But if the power boat person is more of a
trawler-type person who is used to 8 knots, then 5 knots might not
seem to be so much slower. On paper at least.

There's a huge difference between an 8 kt trawler and a 5 kt sailboat.
A trawler does 200 nautical mile days almost effortlessly regardless
of wind and seas (up to a point of course). With decent weather it is
possible to predict ETAs with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

That was my point.

A sailboat must be managed constantly to maintain 5 kts and there is a
great deal of daily uncertainty because of changing wind direction and
speed.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
"Capt. JG" wrote:
snip

Here's a long explanation of the various techniques...

http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284

"heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is
basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair.

That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing
something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the
waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one
of them.

Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder...
nothing to do with a sea anchor.

Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote:

"But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping.

There
are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to
a
sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced
sail."


Three ways:

It says there
"are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat"

and lists three ways

1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor
2) lying ahull
3) heaving to under reduced sail

Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea
anchor.

We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's
not what that passage actually SAYS.

He may have used the term heave-to (incorrectly) in the intro paragraph,
but
lying to a sea anchor and heaving to (the technique) have nothing to do
with
each other.

Who is the HE you refer to as using the term incorrectly. You gave
this URL as an explanation. Why do that if you think that what is
written is incorrect?

I think the person who wrote the explanation is using 'heave to' in
the general sense of storm weather tactics.

Don't be so quick to criticize a non-sailor for actually reading what
is written instead of what you think was written. Because the point
is to explain what a sailboat would do in case of a storm differently
than what a power boat would do. The OP grasped quite quickly that
lying ahull would perhaps not be a wise idea, and why that would be
so. Why nitpick about what he is calling heaving to?

Note: It is necessary to practice heaving to just as anything else,
and while you might want to do it first in good weather, it might be a
good idea to try it sometime in heavy weather conditions. We do it
with the staysail and main or with the staysail and jib, and one of
the other people who has our type of boat says that one of those ways
is wrong. (I don't remember which he says is correct.) I'm pretty
sure that we don't use the main and jib, but I could be wrong about
that.

We also have a sea anchor, but have not practiced with it yet because
in the Chesapeake there's too much traffic for it to be needed. Plus
there's a lot of places to hide.

It's also a good idea to have the canvas reduced before you really
need to do it.

Type: define: heave to in google.

Actually, there's a fourth way to heave-to.... I always ask people to do
it
on the leward side. g


He is the author. Heaving to is not deploying a sea anchor nor lying ahull.
I'm not nitpicking. I disputed that lying ahull is the method of choice. I
wasn't "quick to criticize a non-sailor." I was quick to point out that
there is a difference between the three and eventually I pointed out that
the author was in error about calling all three heaving to.

Don't be so quick to pass judgement about what I wrote. I wrote it and
provided a link for his benefit.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
That's what I get for sending out messages in the middle of the night. I
really
meant
heaving to, instead of lying ahull. However, I was not that far off the
mark since
Royce
defines ahull as heaving to under bare poles with helm alee. It has
saved my butt
many times.
My conception is setting a storm jib to back on the windward side, the
main sail is
reefed
and set to leeward, and the rudder is turned to leeward. My experience is
that the
boat will
actually make some forward headway at a very slow pace, in my case about 1
knot.
This causes the boat to alternately head up into the wind and fall off
due to the
backed jib.
I hope I got my semantics right this time, although I never heard of a
boat sinking because of semantics.



We knew that. g

There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

That's what I get for sending out messages in the middle of the night. I really
meant
heaving to, instead of lying ahull. However, I was not that far off the mark since
Royce
defines ahull as heaving to under bare poles with helm alee. It has saved my butt
many times.
My conception is setting a storm jib to back on the windward side, the main sail is
reefed
and set to leeward, and the rudder is turned to leeward. My experience is that the
boat will
actually make some forward headway at a very slow pace, in my case about 1 knot.
This causes the boat to alternately head up into the wind and fall off due to the
backed jib.
I hope I got my semantics right this time, although I never heard of a
boat sinking because of semantics.

Sherwin D.

sherwindu wrote:

I would say the biggest difference comes with heavy weather conditions. You
have
to be more aware of changing conditions to do things like get your sail area
reduced
if the wind picks up. For extreme conditions, I would learn about measures to
keep
your boat safe, like lying ahull. You have to be more aware of the depths you
will
go over, since most sailboats have deep keels. Learning how to keep from going
aground and what to do if you are, can be important. Navigation with currents
becomes more important, since your speed is much less than a power boat and you
are exposed to drifts for longer periods. Those are mostly safety issues. Of
course,
you will have to learn more about sail trim, reefing sails, etc. to complete the
picture.
Just don't become one of those sailors I see motoring with a favorable wind with
all
their sails down.

Sherwin D.

Two meter troll wrote:

Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat
independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places
sane folks take sail boats in the modern era.
I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but
the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK.
just playing around 15 years ago.

Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i
need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances.

how do you transition from power boat to sail?
what habits do i need to unlearn?
what safety habits differ from power to sail?
what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as
opposed to power?
Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats?
ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good
work done cheap?
side band channels to monitor for info and tips?
quick guides to what not to do in various ports?
where to avoid and why?
groups to sail with?
income at sea?
And whole bunches more.
I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc.
And currently i have time due to a crushed leg.
Thanks in advance.
2MT

There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days.

"j" ganz


There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days.

"j" ganz



Back in 1987, the drogue report pretty well deep sixed Lyingahull with
wave height or = to your beam. The models in the wave tank kept
rolling over and sinking.

http://seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/

Humm, so you have 10-13' seas, Pretty common day in most places, now
what? Better have a boat over 40' if your going to do that lying
thing. As far as heavy weather tactics goes there is a bunch of them.
And everybody claims that some doodad or strategy will save your ass.
No one thing will work.

Think of it this way. If you're in law enforcement or corrections its
the same as your "use of force" model. Instead of using progressively
lethal force to control a subject, your using a progressive series of
sailing strategies to maintain control of your boat. But I've never
read anyplace that really described it that way; Too bad. I can see
why people get confused about how to manage a boat in ever increasing
Beaufort states. Do this, don't do that, get a doodad, no get a series
doodad. And then there is always that summarizing paragraph that says,
"but all boats react differently... bla...bla...bla... so you just have to
figure it out yourself." That is a bunch of bull **** from people who
don't know what they are doing. Keeping your boat afloat is as simple
as A-B-C-D.

$.02

And for the 3rd or 4th time I'll post the comments from a master on
one of the rescue boats who saved several in the Fastnet 1979. A quote
that rarely gets reprinted in those "Perfect Storm" books.


Fastnet Disaster
of
1979

Interview with Bill Burrows, Chief Engineer Royal Navy Lifeboat
Institution. Retrieved three disabled sailboats in a 21 hour rescue
during the fatal 1979 Fastnet Storm.

"... Look, you get 300 Yachats in poor weather and you're going to have
some trouble, almost certainly. But the majority of the trouble was
hysteria created by the situation and by inexperienced crews. And that
it was. They were blaming rudders and such, but none of those rudders
would have snapped if they had put drogues out and storm jibs and run
before the weather. They were under bare poles, most of them, and they
were getting up on the seas. And the seas were about 45 feet. Not what
we around here call big.

They got up on these seas and they were running. When the boats were
starting to broach, what the helmsmen were doing was hauling on the
rudders to stop them from broaching. They were putting too much bloody
strain on the rudders, and they had to go.

Yes, I know they were racing sailors, not cruising men, but that's no
excuse. We went out that night and we passed a little old hooker sort
of thing with a family of kids aboard and they were going away to
Ireland with no trouble at all...."

Thanks for repeating that (I posted it a while ago as well). I consider it
one of the most important and useful quotes in boating. It's amazing what a
calm, organized, and matter of fact vessel management style does to reduce
the size of the seas and the force of the wind. You almost always have
several times longer to deal with a problem than it feels like. Taking it
slow, thinkng it through, and not complicating the situation with adenalin
rush, is as important as your safety teather when the going gets tough.
Even many jet test pilots, where things happen really fast, often used to
say the that very first thing to do in any emergency was to count to ten
slowly.

--
Roger Long

Your vocabulary is going to expand!!
Heaving to is one of my favourites, someone always gets mad whenever
it is discussed here!

On a destroyer in the Navy, the mooring lines were 4 inches and there
were 6 men assigned to each line, the command to "pull the rope" is
"heave to!"

What has been mentioned [back-haul the jib and tie the rudder over]
is the way that everyone learned in school because all schools teach
with a sloop, but if you get a ketch there is a method to heave-to
using the mizzen aswell. And below I pasted a bit from the oxford
dictionary showing a couple other methods. Why I bet there is folks
as traveled around the world and never knew you could use your
spencer to heave-to! hhahhahahhaaa

But the imortant thing about sailing is just kick back and enjoyit,
cause now God has all the power! Stop rushing [bet that's how ya
lost the leg???]

tom
=-==

c. heave to: to bring the ship to a standstill by setting the sails so
as to counteract each other; to make her lie to. (a) trans. with
the ship as obj. (b) intr. or absol.

a. 1775 DALRYMPLE in Phil. Trans. LXVIII. 397 Hove the ship to. 1833
M. SCOTT Tom Cringle xv. (1859) 357 'Shorten sail..and heave the ship
to', said the Captain. 1884 A. BRASSEY in Gd. Words Mar. 163/1 We
remained hove-to all the next day.
fig. 1887 STEVENSON Misadv. J. Nicholson iv, [He] was at last hove-to,
all standing, in a hospital.
b. 1781 BLAGDEN in Phil. Trans. LXXI. 337 Soon afterwards we hove-to
in order to sound. 1835 SIR J. ROSS Narr. 2nd Voy. vi. 79 This obliged
us to heave to. 1860 MAURY Phys. Geog. Sea xix. §807 Took in fore and
mizen top-sails; hove to under close-reefed main top sail and spencer.
transf. 1832 MARRYAT N. Forster iii, We must 'heave-to' in our
narrative awhile.



On Mar 15, 3:34 am, "Two meter troll" wrote:
Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat
independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places
sane folks take sail boats in the modern era.
I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but
the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK.
just playing around 15 years ago.

Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i
need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances.

how do you transition from power boat to sail?
what habits do i need to unlearn?
what safety habits differ from power to sail?
what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as
opposed to power?
Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats?
ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good
work done cheap?
side band channels to monitor for info and tips?
quick guides to what not to do in various ports?
where to avoid and why?
groups to sail with?
income at sea?
And whole bunches more.
I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc.
And currently i have time due to a crushed leg.
Thanks in advance.
2MT

Actually i lost the leg teaching folks to build and helping people
improve the livability if there communities; i quit the dangerious
stuff and learned to build safe natrual building
http://www.naturalbuildingnetwork.or...techniques.htm

Or here if you want some skilled fun.
2MT

* tlindly wrote, On 3/18/2007 8:04 AM:
....
What has been mentioned [back-haul the jib and tie the rudder over]
is the way that everyone learned in school because all schools teach
with a sloop, but if you get a ketch there is a method to heave-to
using the mizzen aswell. And below I pasted a bit from the oxford
dictionary showing a couple other methods. Why I bet there is folks
as traveled around the world and never knew you could use your
spencer to heave-to! hhahhahahhaaa

But the imortant thing about sailing is just kick back and enjoyit,
cause now God has all the power! Stop rushing [bet that's how ya
lost the leg???]

tom
=-==

c. heave to: to bring the ship to a standstill by setting the sails so
as to counteract each other; to make her lie to. (a) trans. with
the ship as obj. (b) intr. or absol.

a. 1775 DALRYMPLE in Phil. Trans. LXVIII. 397 Hove the ship to. 1833
M. SCOTT Tom Cringle xv. (1859) 357 'Shorten sail..and heave the ship
to', said the Captain. 1884 A. BRASSEY in Gd. Words Mar. 163/1 We
remained hove-to all the next day.
fig. 1887 STEVENSON Misadv. J. Nicholson iv, [He] was at last hove-to,
all standing, in a hospital.
b. 1781 BLAGDEN in Phil. Trans. LXXI. 337 Soon afterwards we hove-to
in order to sound. 1835 SIR J. ROSS Narr. 2nd Voy. vi. 79 This obliged
us to heave to. 1860 MAURY Phys. Geog. Sea xix. §807 Took in fore and
mizen top-sails; hove to under close-reefed main top sail and spencer.
transf. 1832 MARRYAT N. Forster iii, We must 'heave-to' in our
narrative awhile.


Thanks for that - very interesting. I looked in the 1802 edition of
Bowditch for a definition of "Heave To." There is a whole section on
variations of "heave" but nothing for "heave to." Perhaps this was
not common terminology for the ships Bowditch was concerned with.
However, it did have this:

"To Lie-to. To retard a ship on her course, by arranging the sails in
such a manner as to counteract each other with nearly an equal effort,
and tender the ship almost immovable, with respect to her progressive
motion or headway."

From a somewhat more modern source, "The Boatman's Manual" by Carl
Lane, 1942, the technique of lashing the tiller down and adjusting the
sails so the boat "goes to sleep" is described as "Laying To" but it
is mentioned in passing as being "hove to." Then, in the chapter on
small power boat handling, there is a section on "Heaving To" where it
explains that "small boats will not heave to without aid as a steamer
will, and a sea anchor, or drogue, becomes a necessity."

From 1943, Chapman's "Piloting, Seamanship, and Small Boat Handling"
uses "Heaving to" to describe the "helm down" technique for sailboats,
but for powerboats it is used when engines are used to keep the bow
into the wind, or when the boat is simple allowed to drift in whatever
orientation is most comfortable for the boat.