There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since
most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen
of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive
hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These
are but a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned
with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for
a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's
incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more
concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should
ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most
of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the
other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of
television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this
country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a
few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard
of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that
size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no
personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and
proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's
built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think
such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?

First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it.

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most
of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the
other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of
television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this
country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but
a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard
of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that
size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no
personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and
proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's
built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think
such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
There are high standards and there are low standards.


Yes and after lurking in here for just a short while I've noticed that you do not meet my standards.
Do you even own a boat?

*plonk*

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's
yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed.
You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of
the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since
most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and
half-dozen
of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive
hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the
people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards.
These
are but a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody
concerned
with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money
for
a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's
incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Keep in mind that many "premier" name boats use teak and cabinetry
to represent quality.
Initial visible hardware may be 3 steps above an inexpensive boat like
a Mac, Catalina or Coronado, but hardware can be readily replaced.
Design and cost is the first consideration for high-volume sales, and
the Mac and Catalina boats have done well here.
Hull/deck construction and the consistency of the materials and
manufacturing processes are the "quality" hallmarks of mass produced
boats. Their sales and the longevity of the boats speak well to their
efforts on that issue.
Why do you suppose many sailboat builders have gone out of business?
The boats found no market as new, but still are bought used,
laboriously maintained, if not sailed, by those who adhere to your
shallow method of "standards."
Such conduct reminds me of that of those fans of old "classic" cars
who lovingly replace every piece of rusted metal and rotten
upholstery. The car becomes different in its entirety, has cost many
times more than its original cost, is still archaic in its
engineering, won't be used as originally intended, but it is
"classic."
Ok if that's what you want, but I simply go to the appropriate museum
to view such fossils.
Having done much sailing and living aboard many boats of varying costs
from my basement here in N. Illinois, I can speak with more authority
than those who simply hook-swing on barnacle-encrusted old boats,
which will perhaps sadly too soon become part of the natural seascape
in obeying the sea-faring version of nature's "Ashes to ashes," which
can be termed nautically as "Coronado to reef."
More important to me is the quality of the boat in hull/deck materials
and that tried and true construction techniques are used.
Contrary to your limited experience in that area, I have done
considerable study, employing the experience of thousands of man-years
of sailboat owners. Had to use thousands, since it takes about a
thousand man-years of sailboat owner "experience" to glean about
one man-year of sensible data.
Having seen that the Parker Dawson didn't even use washers
under its deck cleat nuts, and learning from a friend - a blue water
sailor - that he found while preparing his recently purchased Ted Hood
designed Wauquiez Hood 38 MK II a serious thru-hull builder error
which could sink him, and seeing other instances of "quality" boats
being less than their reputation, I am especially sensitive to initial
build quality. You have used the Wauquiez name favorably in one of
your eloquent trolls, and I have no doubt it is a fine boat, but
reality steps in even there.
Below is a link to the Mac 26 build process. Nice. You probably know
that drunk Frenchmen are less reliable boat builders than illegal
Mexicans who can be deported should they make a mistake, but make
a note anyway.
To sum up the whole "standards" issue, which is always iffy unless one
actually supervises construction, a boat is just so many pounds of
materials put together to serve a design purpose. Initial hull/deck
materials and attentive construction process are the premier
consideration to me.
All afterward can be improved if needed/desired, within the design
constraints.
I know you feel threatened by Macs, especially the 90HP ETECS,
but you will have to deal with that insecurity as you travel the path
of life. Maybe it helps to tell you that if I get a Mac I'll probably
put only a 25HP 4-stroke on it, and paint it mustard. Maybe not.
Anyway, as I see it no boat will provide class to any owner, but an
owner may provide class to any boat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...nstruction.htm

--Vic

Some good thoughts but there need be no gray areas and shoddy building
practices if one builds a sailboat according to Lloyds standards. Good
building practices are no accident and they generally always result in a
more expensive boat. The only way to produce an inexpensive boat is to
not build it to high standards. People know this but they go ahead and
buy junk and they buy junk in bulk quantities. It's stupid and it's
shameful. If you build a boat to Lloyds specifications you must have
almost everything inspected and checked off a punch list. The inspector
insures there are no shortcuts or shoddy workmanship. The inspector is
not free. So, of course the selling price of the yacht must be higher.
It all goes back to standards. But a boat built to Lloyds standards and
you get the best. Buy a piece of garbage like the MacGregor and you are
guaranteed a cut-corners boat.

Owning a cut-corners boat demonstrates for the entire world to see that
the owner is a cut-corners type of guy. If a lawyer is proud of his
MacGregor 26 then that tells me he's a cut-corners person and not the
person I want litigating an important case where cutting corners will
most likely be disastrous. If my doctor owns and is proud of a Mac26
then what corners is he going to cut when he operates on me. Is he going
to wash his hands thoroughly? Is he going to use autoclaved instruments?
So, when I see any cut-corners kind of guy out in a Mac26 I have to ask
myself what other corners is this guy going to cut. Does he even know
the basic navigation rules? Does he know how to anchor? Does he have the
proper safety equipment? After all he has already demonstrated that he
has no standards because of his boat purchase. Isn't it likely his
sloppiness and lack of standards permeates his entire life? I think so.
That's why I don't want any Macgregor's anywhere near me. The good news
is offshore where I am most of the time one rarely sees a Mac26 because
even if Mac owners have low standards they still value their lives
enough to stay within site of land.

Wilbur Hubbard

wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you
are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't
have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you
but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's
really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

Wilbur Hubbard

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building
standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the
head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in
this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10%
of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But
since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and
half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country
watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less
than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e.,
no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less
society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody
concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying
good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building
standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has
eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around
with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy,
**** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things
means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since
most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen
of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive
hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These
are but a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned
with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for
a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's
incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Keep in mind that many "premier" name boats use teak and cabinetry
to represent quality.
Initial visible hardware may be 3 steps above an inexpensive boat like
a Mac, Catalina or Coronado, but hardware can be readily replaced.
Design and cost is the first consideration for high-volume sales, and
the Mac and Catalina boats have done well here.
Hull/deck construction and the consistency of the materials and
manufacturing processes are the "quality" hallmarks of mass produced
boats. Their sales and the longevity of the boats speak well to their
efforts on that issue.
Why do you suppose many sailboat builders have gone out of business?
The boats found no market as new, but still are bought used,
laboriously maintained, if not sailed, by those who adhere to your
shallow method of "standards."
Such conduct reminds me of that of those fans of old "classic" cars
who lovingly replace every piece of rusted metal and rotten
upholstery. The car becomes different in its entirety, has cost many
times more than its original cost, is still archaic in its
engineering, won't be used as originally intended, but it is
"classic."
Ok if that's what you want, but I simply go to the appropriate museum
to view such fossils.
Having done much sailing and living aboard many boats of varying costs
from my basement here in N. Illinois, I can speak with more authority
than those who simply hook-swing on barnacle-encrusted old boats,
which will perhaps sadly too soon become part of the natural seascape
in obeying the sea-faring version of nature's "Ashes to ashes," which
can be termed nautically as "Coronado to reef."
More important to me is the quality of the boat in hull/deck materials
and that tried and true construction techniques are used.
Contrary to your limited experience in that area, I have done
considerable study, employing the experience of thousands of man-years
of sailboat owners. Had to use thousands, since it takes about a
thousand man-years of sailboat owner "experience" to glean about
one man-year of sensible data.
Having seen that the Parker Dawson didn't even use washers
under its deck cleat nuts, and learning from a friend - a blue water
sailor - that he found while preparing his recently purchased Ted Hood
designed Wauquiez Hood 38 MK II a serious thru-hull builder error
which could sink him, and seeing other instances of "quality" boats
being less than their reputation, I am especially sensitive to initial
build quality. You have used the Wauquiez name favorably in one of
your eloquent trolls, and I have no doubt it is a fine boat, but
reality steps in even there.
Below is a link to the Mac 26 build process. Nice. You probably know
that drunk Frenchmen are less reliable boat builders than illegal
Mexicans who can be deported should they make a mistake, but make
a note anyway.
To sum up the whole "standards" issue, which is always iffy unless one
actually supervises construction, a boat is just so many pounds of
materials put together to serve a design purpose. Initial hull/deck
materials and attentive construction process are the premier
consideration to me.
All afterward can be improved if needed/desired, within the design
constraints.
I know you feel threatened by Macs, especially the 90HP ETECS,
but you will have to deal with that insecurity as you travel the path
of life. Maybe it helps to tell you that if I get a Mac I'll probably
put only a 25HP 4-stroke on it, and paint it mustard. Maybe not.
Anyway, as I see it no boat will provide class to any owner, but an
owner may provide class to any boat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...nstruction.htm

--Vic

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building
standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the
head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in
this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10%
of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But
since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and
half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country
watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less
than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e.,
no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less
society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody
concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying
good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building
standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has
eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around
with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy,
**** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things
means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:47:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you
are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't
have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you
but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's
really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post
at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

I believe the Wauquiez I mentioned earlier, which had a serious build
defect, touts the Lloyds Standards imprimatur in one fashion or
another. While not disagreeing about standards being essential in
just about any endeavor, there are standards and there are standards.
For Powersailors (very cool term) the Mac sets the standard.
Would you think less of the Coronado if it didn't have a Lloyds
Standard stamp of approval?
Here's a link giving a cursory look at Lloyds Standards and others.
http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=2773
Very costly initially and must be renewed yearly.
Other browsing indicates the term Lloyds Standards is used - or
misused - dishonestly, as a true Lloyds Standard boat must meet many
requirements. Using the term Lloyds Standards is often just sizzle.
In your heart you know that.
One of my concerns with the Mac is the standards used in its materials
and construction. Since it will mostly be used parked near your
Coronado, it must have a solid enough deck to install thru-deck A/C
and room in the cockpit or transom for the genset.
But it won't go to blue water so the Lloyds Standards are not an
issue. Gunkholing, slow cruising and leisurely sailing are the Macs
suite of capabilities in my eyes, and owners seem pretty happy doing
those things with them., Lloyds or no Lloyds.

--Vic


Thanks. That's a good link. It proves my point. It says:
"For that same reason, American builders have been slow to encourage the
use of classifications because buyers aren't familiar with them and,
almost to a man, they all claim to build better boats than required by
the societies. Whether that is true or not is just as debatable as
whether a buyer would want a boat built to society standards. One
well-known builder noted that it is impossible to build the high-speed
motoryachts, now so popular, to classification because of the sacrifices
necessary to keep the weight to a minimum. The societies, on the other
hand, point out that they have been classing high-speed patrol craft and
other speed-oriented vessels for many years, and suggest that the
builder is probably cutting many corners in search of an extra knot or
two."

Cutting many corners in search for an extra knot or two? Sound familiar?
Sounds like it describes a MacGregor 26.

Wilbur Hubbard