Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that
a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really
increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the
size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it
necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well.
Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem.

What's the GPH on your engine?

If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron
element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a
micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let
anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter
at all?

Capt. Bill

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:35:51 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:



Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


I believe that was for OIL not diesel.


Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content,
contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for
being filtered in the first place. :-)

Hmm, would be interesting to find out the viscosity difference of 220F
motor oil vs. cool diesel fuel. I'd guess they are pretty similar with
similar flow rates and condensate content. The contaminants filtered
would obviosly be different but the reason for filtering in the first
place is the same... to rid them of particulants.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:35:51 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:



Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


I believe that was for OIL not diesel.


Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content,
contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for
being filtered in the first place. :-)

Hmm, would be interesting to find out the viscosity difference of 220F
motor oil vs. cool diesel fuel. I'd guess they are pretty similar with
similar flow rates and condensate content. The contaminants filtered
would obviosly be different but the reason for filtering in the first
place is the same... to rid them of particulants.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:53:43 -0800, Jed wrote:

WHAT A ****TY MESS -

It sure looks that way, doesn't it? But that's what you get when you
try and fit a whole lot of plumbing, tubing, filters, etc., into a tight
space that already had a stuff in it. I wish I had more room to make it
look neater, with straight hose runs, separating the wiring from the
valve area, etc. But I don't.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:11 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

Here's a picture of my installation.

http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg

The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor
after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't
visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the
oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass
the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime
the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The
pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the
vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump.

Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg

Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare. But it's all pretty straight
foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except
for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor
and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple
of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an
element change.




"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?

RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:53:43 -0800, Jed wrote:

WHAT A ****TY MESS -

It sure looks that way, doesn't it? But that's what you get when you
try and fit a whole lot of plumbing, tubing, filters, etc., into a tight
space that already had a stuff in it. I wish I had more room to make it
look neater, with straight hose runs, separating the wiring from the
valve area, etc. But I don't.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:11 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

Here's a picture of my installation.

http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg

The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor
after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't
visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the
oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass
the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime
the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The
pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the
vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump.

Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg

Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare. But it's all pretty straight
foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except
for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor
and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple
of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an
element change.




"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?

RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve

The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching
the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that
was clogging up most.


Like I said, look into putting a large size small micron filter BEFORE the
engine mounted one. I want my filtration system to stop crud before it gets to
the engine filter.
By the way, and I might have missed this, what kind of engine do you have? And
what is it's true GHP flow rating? In other words it's burn plus return GPH.

Capt. Bill
Capt. Bill

The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching
the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that
was clogging up most.


Like I said, look into putting a large size small micron filter BEFORE the
engine mounted one. I want my filtration system to stop crud before it gets to
the engine filter.
By the way, and I might have missed this, what kind of engine do you have? And
what is it's true GHP flow rating? In other words it's burn plus return GPH.

Capt. Bill
Capt. Bill

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: Brian Whatcott

Ahem...you meant mineral lubricating oil, rather than
mineral fuel oil?

Yeah, that's what he means.
And check out the tolerances in a "mineral oil" lubricating pump verses the
tolerances in a "mineral oil" fuel injector pump.
Then maybe you will grasp why proper "mineral oil" fuel filtration is more
critical than "mineral oil" lubrication filtation.

Capt. Bill

Capt. Bill

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: Brian Whatcott

Ahem...you meant mineral lubricating oil, rather than
mineral fuel oil?

Yeah, that's what he means.
And check out the tolerances in a "mineral oil" lubricating pump verses the
tolerances in a "mineral oil" fuel injector pump.
Then maybe you will grasp why proper "mineral oil" fuel filtration is more
critical than "mineral oil" lubrication filtation.

Capt. Bill

Capt. Bill

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: (Steven Shelikoff)

Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances of a fuel
injector pump and an oil pump.

Capt. Bill