He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up
mainsail.

Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor would
have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove
sliding slugs.

A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast and
the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has added
sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore the
sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be.

The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat the more I come to
realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called,
modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and
enjoyable cruising. Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock
constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes
nowhere any more.

But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself
and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor.
Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising.
Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not
bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising bar
whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up
mainsail.

Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have
been I'd probably have mentioned that I designed it myself, calculated
all the loads and stresses, Sized the material to allow a 50% safety
factor, cut and welded it myself, and if I do say so there isn't a
warp or wrinkle in it. Installed it myself and designed and
manufactured the reefing and furling systems myself.

Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor would
have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove
sliding slugs.

Willy, Know what a staysail schooner is? Know what a fisherman
staysail is? Know what a jib is, or a genoa or a yankee staysail?.
With the exception of the mainsail on the schooner all of these sails
are set on stays - stretched cables - and they all sag to windward ...
just like my roller main.

A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast and
the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has added
sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore the
sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be.

How much efficiency does it lose? And how much is that loss in
efficiency compensated for by always having the correct amount of sail
out.

f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say
six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4
feet would you be going faster?

With a roller you can reef that four feet.

There are two batten systems used with roll up sails and either will
give as good sail form as conventional battens and batten cars.

The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat the more I come to
realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called,
modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and
enjoyable cruising. Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock
constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes
nowhere any more.

Yes, complicated systems; lets see? Is it the nearly 30 year old
Perkins 4-107 engine - ah yes, a really complicated piece of machinery
that. I overhauled it in Singapore ten years ago. What else? Oh yes,
the VHF set, now ten years old and looking like another ten before it
dies. Of course we got the 60 amp battery charger that I bought down
at the auto shop five years ago, but that isn't broke yet.

Come on Willy, tell me. What it this complicated system that keeps me
so busy. Is it the roller furling that operates from the cockpit along
with all the other lines?

I know! It is that damned electric anchor winch. Five years ago I had
it apart to paint the housing and while it was apart I had the
bearings changed. That is it! Two bearings and a coat of paint, that
is the excess maintenance that is keeping me tied to the dock.

My out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking
its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long?

But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself
and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor.
Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising.
Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not
bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising bar
whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself.

What is the "typical modern-day cruising sailor", Willy? Somebody with
a Swan 68 and a 9.9 HP outboard bolted to the stern, or is it somebody
with a trailer-sailter who can't afford marinas so has to anchor out
and haul water and gas and cooking fuel. Or, is it some one who just
gets up and goes whenever he wants to? Let us in on the secret Willy.

Peter is getting ready to leave Central America as soon as the
cyclone season is over and hasn't made up his mind whether to head
straight to N.Z. or stop in Vietnam first. And this is a guy that you
bad mouthed and said wasn't a sailor, talking about essentially a
nonstop crossing of the Pacific Ocean. And he is doing it in a 40 ft.
boat he built himself right down to the cast bronze rigging fittings.

No, Willy you got to let us know what the difference is between people
who go out and do a thousand mile sail when they want to and The REAL
sailors that you so regularly refer to. How are you ever going to get
us to change if you don't let us in on the secrets?

..






Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

brought forth on stone tablets:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up
mainsail.


Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have
[...]

don't feed the troll, Bruce

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast,
wind-up
mainsail.

Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have
been I'd probably have mentioned that I designed it myself, calculated
all the loads and stresses, Sized the material to allow a 50% safety
factor, cut and welded it myself, and if I do say so there isn't a
warp or wrinkle in it. Installed it myself and designed and
manufactured the reefing and furling systems myself.


And that made it impossible for you to cruise for maybe half a year.
Exactly what you wanted, wasn't it?



Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor
would
have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove
sliding slugs.

Willy, Know what a staysail schooner is? Know what a fisherman
staysail is? Know what a jib is, or a genoa or a yankee staysail?.
With the exception of the mainsail on the schooner all of these sails
are set on stays - stretched cables - and they all sag to windward ...
just like my roller main.

If you don't have a Marconi rig then you're less a cruiser than I
thought.



A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast
and
the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has
added
sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore
the
sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be.

How much efficiency does it lose? And how much is that loss in
efficiency compensated for by always having the correct amount of sail
out.

Perhaps a 30% loss. A correctly sized for the conditionions rolled up
mainsail will always loose out to a correctly sized for the conditions
(slab reefed) mainsail. Not only that but it will be more dangerous and
more likely to break or unwind.


f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say
six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4
feet would you be going faster?

Real cruisers have three reef points and a dedicated storm trysail on
its own track. That covers all contingencies.


With a roller you can reef that four feet.

And it can jam, break, unwind when least expected, jam and flog.


There are two batten systems used with roll up sails and either will
give as good sail form as conventional battens and batten cars.

Vertical battens are not as efficient as horizontal battens.


The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat the more I come to
realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called,
modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and
enjoyable cruising. Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock
constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes
nowhere any more.

Yes, complicated systems; lets see? Is it the nearly 30 year old
Perkins 4-107 engine - ah yes, a really complicated piece of machinery
that. I overhauled it in Singapore ten years ago. What else? Oh yes,
the VHF set, now ten years old and looking like another ten before it
dies. Of course we got the 60 amp battery charger that I bought down
at the auto shop five years ago, but that isn't broke yet.

Come on Willy, tell me. What it this complicated system that keeps me
so busy. Is it the roller furling that operates from the cockpit along
with all the other lines?

I don't know enough about your boat to talk specifics. What I DO know is
you seem to sit overlong in one place while claiming to be a world
cruiser. You need to become a little more realistic about your method of
operation. Face it. You are settled in and comfortable. Nothing wrong
with that. You found a good place to live. Just admit it and get along
with your life there. Stop trying to act like a latter day Joshua
Slocum.


I know! It is that damned electric anchor winch. Five years ago I had
it apart to paint the housing and while it was apart I had the
bearings changed. That is it! Two bearings and a coat of paint, that
is the excess maintenance that is keeping me tied to the dock.


With a proper sized cruising boat one never has a need for a windlass or
electric winch. A proper sized cruising boat has systems one man can
handle using the power God gave him. If you can't hand your ground
tackle yourself then your boat's too big for you.


My out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking
its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long?


You mean Capt. Neal's? I'd guess twenty years or so because it's rarely
used. It's already six years old and he says it has less than 200 hours
on it.



But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself
and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor.
Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising.
Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not
bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising
bar
whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself.

What is the "typical modern-day cruising sailor", Willy? Somebody with
a Swan 68 and a 9.9 HP outboard bolted to the stern, or is it somebody
with a trailer-sailter who can't afford marinas so has to anchor out
and haul water and gas and cooking fuel. Or, is it some one who just
gets up and goes whenever he wants to? Let us in on the secret Willy.


The Swan is my coorporate tas write-off yacht. I have a captain and crew
running it. I just go along for the ride from time to time. My Allied
Seawind 32 is my coastal cruiser. I sail that all by my little lonesome.
It's Capt. Neal who's got the Honda 9.9 not me. Heck that's not even big
enough for the Swan's dinghy.


Peter is getting ready to leave Central America as soon as the
cyclone season is over and hasn't made up his mind whether to head
straight to N.Z. or stop in Vietnam first. And this is a guy that you
bad mouthed and said wasn't a sailor, talking about essentially a
nonstop crossing of the Pacific Ocean. And he is doing it in a 40 ft.
boat he built himself right down to the cast bronze rigging fittings.

No, Willy you got to let us know what the difference is between people
who go out and do a thousand mile sail when they want to and The REAL
sailors that you so regularly refer to. How are you ever going to get
us to change if you don't let us in on the secrets?


Real cruisers do it themselves. They don't sail by committee. Real
sailors don't try to sail a floating home. They sail a seaworthy yacht
that becomes their home. Their home is attuned to the sea and has
limited systems that only lubbers think they need. Real sailors leave
port unnoticed and arrive in another port almost unnoticed. They don't
have to yell for help or ask for assistance. They don't think one
disaster after another is what sailing is all about. They hate the sight
of and the smell of civilization except for a day or two after a long
passage. They consider a dock the nemesis of their lifestyle. They like
their privacy. The land is only a place to stop long enough to provision
before carrying on. They are happy to be solitary men. They know only a
handful of women in this world are cut out to be real sailors. They are
satisfied that even though they likely will never find such a woman they
just might if they keep doing what they are doing and are honest about
their way of life. But, it does not become a priority or an obsession.
They don't prostitute themselves by trying to attract the wrong kind of
woman who is only satisfied with a luxury condo that floats.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast,
wind-up
mainsail.

Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have
been I'd probably have mentioned that I designed it myself, calculated
all the loads and stresses, Sized the material to allow a 50% safety
factor, cut and welded it myself, and if I do say so there isn't a
warp or wrinkle in it. Installed it myself and designed and
manufactured the reefing and furling systems myself.


And that made it impossible for you to cruise for maybe half a year.
Exactly what you wanted, wasn't it?


A half a year? Who's doing your work? You really need to find some
better quality craftsmen. It took me about a week to fabricate and
install the complete furling system. While I was doing the fabrication
and installation my wife was recutting and sewing the sail so we were
about a week, maybe ten days, from removing the original goose neck to
the shake down cruise with the new system.


Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor
would
have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove
sliding slugs.

Willy, Know what a staysail schooner is? Know what a fisherman
staysail is? Know what a jib is, or a genoa or a yankee staysail?.
With the exception of the mainsail on the schooner all of these sails
are set on stays - stretched cables - and they all sag to windward ...
just like my roller main.

If you don't have a Marconi rig then you're less a cruiser than I
thought.

I guess that means poor old Joshua Slocum, the first man to sail
around the world alone, was some kind of wimp (gaff rig) All the
schooner fishermen on the grand banks for years were gaff rigged, The
America (maybe you've heard of that boat) was gaff rigged. Literally
thousands of junk rigged chinese vessels were trading as far as India
for centuries. The Clipper ships were not marconi rigged. I could go
on but why bother. You have, for some reason selected a relatively
recent sail form and decided that if an individual doesn't use that
form he aren't a sailor although that sail form has been in use for
such a tiny portion of the period in which sailing vessels have been
in use. Next you will be telling me that stainless is the only
material to rig your boat with even though it has been proven that
properly treated galvanized rigging lasts longer.


A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast
and
the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has
added
sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore
the
sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be.

How much efficiency does it lose? And how much is that loss in
efficiency compensated for by always having the correct amount of sail
out.

Perhaps a 30% loss. A correctly sized for the conditionions rolled up
mainsail will always loose out to a correctly sized for the conditions
(slab reefed) mainsail. Not only that but it will be more dangerous and
more likely to break or unwind.

Willie, you just plain don;t know what you are talking about. Why is
my roll up mainsail more likely to unroll then a rolled up jib and at
least 90 percent of the boats I see have roller furling jibs. Even
your swan 68 comes standard with a roller furling foresail.

Your figure of a 30% loss in efficiency is ridicules. If it were true
then my boat would sail substantially slower then it did with the
hanked on main but in fact it is impossible to tell the difference. In
fact, because I am able to carry the ideal amount of sail for wind
conditions, it appears that passages are actually quicker then they
were with the old mainsail.


f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say
six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4
feet would you be going faster?

Real cruisers have three reef points and a dedicated storm trysail on
its own track. That covers all contingencies.

You are right. and the reef points are about 6 feet apart, depending
on how big a boat you have. So you must reef in six foot slabs when in
fact it might be better to only reef 4 feet but because the reef
cringles are at six feet that is the distance you have to shorten
sail. The roller, on the other hand can let in or out the sail inches
at a time and thus can maintain the ideal sail area for the wind
force.

I fully agree with you about the storm sail and have such a track
fitted along with the appropriate halyards, sheets and other gear. I
also have a storm trisail with all of its rigging if required. The
roller system does not preclude the use of storm sails.

With a roller you can reef that four feet.

And it can jam, break, unwind when least expected, jam and flog.

Why in God's world should it jam? Internally it is just a long piece
of plastic pipe rotating on a S.S. cable. As far as flogging I will
guarantee that I can change sail area faster then you can with your
slab reefing and with far less flogging. And without leaving the
cockpit.


There are two batten systems used with roll up sails and either will
give as good sail form as conventional battens and batten cars.

Vertical battens are not as efficient as horizontal battens.

That is a debatable subject as the purpose of a batten is simply to
reinforce the sail material and help it hold its shape. The companies,
and people who use them, both state that the vertical system works
well.


The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock
constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes
nowhere any more.

Yes, complicated systems; lets see? Is it the nearly 30 year old
Perkins 4-107 engine - ah yes, a really complicated piece of machinery
that. I overhauled it in Singapore ten years ago. What else? Oh yes,
the VHF set, now ten years old and looking like another ten before it
dies. Of course we got the 60 amp battery charger that I bought down
at the auto shop five years ago, but that isn't broke yet.

Come on Willy, tell me. What it this complicated system that keeps me
so busy. Is it the roller furling that operates from the cockpit along
with all the other lines?

I don't know enough about your boat to talk specifics. What I DO know is
you seem to sit overlong in one place while claiming to be a world
cruiser. You need to become a little more realistic about your method of
operation. Face it. You are settled in and comfortable. Nothing wrong
with that. You found a good place to live. Just admit it and get along
with your life there. Stop trying to act like a latter day Joshua
Slocum.

If you don;t know enough about my boat to talk specifics then why did
you make the statement " the more I come to realize he has fallen prey
to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which
do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising." ,as you
did above. Now you are admitting that you don't know anything about my
boat. So either your statement was simple footlessness or a lie.

Now you tell me that "You need to become a little more realistic about
your method of operation." and if I ask you what are my methods of
operation you will admit that you don;t know anything about my methods
of operation. Is this more idiotic ranting or simply another lie?


I know! It is that damned electric anchor winch. Five years ago I had
it apart to paint the housing and while it was apart I had the
bearings changed. That is it! Two bearings and a coat of paint, that
is the excess maintenance that is keeping me tied to the dock.


With a proper sized cruising boat one never has a need for a windlass or
electric winch. A proper sized cruising boat has systems one man can
handle using the power God gave him. If you can't hand your ground
tackle yourself then your boat's too big for you.


You are an idiot if you really mean that statement and it is not just
your usual bluster. If what you say is true then I assume that you
have no winches at all on your boat. No halyard winches; no sheet
winches; no anchor winch. Nothing but the strength in your arm.

Well, Willie, you just gave yourself away. You've got a 23, maybe 25
foot boat, maximum, because you can't handle genoa sheets on anything
bigger without winches. You use rope to anchor which might be all
right in some muddy creek but won't hack it in rocks and coral like we
have over here.

My out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking
its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long?

You mean Capt. Neal's? I'd guess twenty years or so because it's rarely
used. It's already six years old and he says it has less than 200 hours
on it.

I don;t know about Capt. Neil but old Willie Boy was the lad that
bragged about his 9.9 HP, 4-stroke, outboard.. (Unless you are Capt.
Neil in disguise)


But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself
and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor.
Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising.
Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not
bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising
bar
whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself.

What is the "typical modern-day cruising sailor", Willy? Somebody with
a Swan 68 and a 9.9 HP outboard bolted to the stern, or is it somebody
with a trailer-sailter who can't afford marinas so has to anchor out
and haul water and gas and cooking fuel. Or, is it some one who just
gets up and goes whenever he wants to? Let us in on the secret Willy.


The Swan is my coorporate tas write-off yacht. I have a captain and crew
running it. I just go along for the ride from time to time. My Allied
Seawind 32 is my coastal cruiser. I sail that all by my little lonesome.
It's Capt. Neal who's got the Honda 9.9 not me. Heck that's not even big
enough for the Swan's dinghy.

I assume that you are trying to be a comedian here.

Peter is getting ready to leave Central America as soon as the
cyclone season is over and hasn't made up his mind whether to head
straight to N.Z. or stop in Vietnam first. And this is a guy that you
bad mouthed and said wasn't a sailor, talking about essentially a
nonstop crossing of the Pacific Ocean. And he is doing it in a 40 ft.
boat he built himself right down to the cast bronze rigging fittings.

No, Willy you got to let us know what the difference is between people
who go out and do a thousand mile sail when they want to and The REAL
sailors that you so regularly refer to. How are you ever going to get
us to change if you don't let us in on the secrets?

Real cruisers do it themselves. They don't sail by committee. Real
sailors don't try to sail a floating home. They sail a seaworthy yacht
that becomes their home. Their home is attuned to the sea and has
limited systems that only lubbers think they need.


You say "Their home is attuned to the sea and has limited systems
that only lubbers think they need."

Why, if your home is attuned to the sea do you have these systems that
only lubbers think they need? I thought you claimed to be a sailor and
now you are telling me that you have this lubberly equipment on your
boat.

Real sailors leave
port unnoticed and arrive in another port almost unnoticed.

That might be true where you are but try it in this part of the world
and you will find your boat impounded and yourself in jail. You do not
leave a country and enter another country without complying with the
certain formalities. You obviously don't cruise foreign or I wouldn't
have to tell you that.

They don't
have to yell for help or ask for assistance. They don't think one
disaster after another is what sailing is all about. They hate the sight
of and the smell of civilization except for a day or two after a long
passage. They consider a dock the nemesis of their lifestyle. They like
their privacy. The land is only a place to stop long enough to provision
before carrying on. They are happy to be solitary men. They know only a
handful of women in this world are cut out to be real sailors. They are
satisfied that even though they likely will never find such a woman they
just might if they keep doing what they are doing and are honest about
their way of life. But, it does not become a priority or an obsession.
They don't prostitute themselves by trying to attract the wrong kind of
woman who is only satisfied with a luxury condo that floats.

I hope this helps.

Ah Ha! Now I know where you get all your weird ideas, you've been
reading Tristen Jones, haven't you?

You do know that Tristen spent his last years at Ao Chalong in Phuket
so a large number of the locals knew him. He was a pedophile, a
drunk, a liar, and never repaid a debt, and you don't have to believe
me you can ask anyone who was around A o Chafing while Tristen was
alive and you will get exactly the same story. So your hero is not
someone to set up as an image to worship.



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:24:30 +0700, wrote:

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


snip endless and useless "tit-for-tat" back and forth between troll
and fish


wrote in message

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Bruce - PLEASE spit the hook before you drag the whole group under
with you. Wilbur/Neal is here because his former hangout at
alt.sailing asa got so worn out that it is now mostly a ghost town.
All the worthwhile and even most of the worthless posters have left in
disgust. He's set his sights on doing the same here. Either kill file
or ignore him, but DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE HIS PRESENCE IN ANY MANNER.
EVER!

I'm assuming that you are wise enough to benefit from "a word to the
wise"


I second that, except that the other newsgroup is alive and well. Most
people figured it out pretty quickly to ignore most of what he says.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:07:06 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:
snip
Not true. That group used to have 20 or more regulars, most of who
contributed almost daily and were worth reading - and over 100 posts a
day. Now it's a small handful of humorless chumps (4? 5?) who bicker
back and forth over nothing. It amounts to, "You are... No YOU are".
You, yourself, are engaged in yet another of those over there right
now with "Macho Joe". Very tedious, and not worth the trip from
anywhere at this point.


You sure got that right! It's good to see the so-called Captain doesn't
fool some people. He's is one of the worst offenders yet he tries to act
like it's everybody else's fault. Besides that, he's the main reason
there's so much off-topic stuff with multiple cross posts from all sorts
of unrelated groups. It's because the word got around that he's a
snitching netcop who writes about as many bogus abuse reports to news
servers as he writes posts. He's a proven hypocrite - saying one thing
and doing the exact opposite. I've been lurking there for a couple
months and it's not too hard to see what's going on. On top of all
that, he's a liar.

Greg

wrote in message
...
A half a year? Who's doing your work? You really need to find some
better quality craftsmen. It took me about a week to fabricate and
install the complete furling system. While I was doing the fabrication
and installation my wife was recutting and sewing the sail so we were
about a week, maybe ten days, from removing the original goose neck to
the shake down cruise with the new system.

That's not as long as I thought but it's still ten days too long because
you replaced a perfectly good system with an inferior one.

I guess that means poor old Joshua Slocum, the first man to sail
around the world alone, was some kind of wimp (gaff rig) All the
schooner fishermen on the grand banks for years were gaff rigged, The
America (maybe you've heard of that boat) was gaff rigged. Literally
thousands of junk rigged chinese vessels were trading as far as India
for centuries. The Clipper ships were not marconi rigged. I could go
on but why bother. You have, for some reason selected a relatively
recent sail form and decided that if an individual doesn't use that
form he aren't a sailor although that sail form has been in use for
such a tiny portion of the period in which sailing vessels have been
in use. Next you will be telling me that stainless is the only
material to rig your boat with even though it has been proven that
properly treated galvanized rigging lasts longer.

Get real, Buster. Old Josh didn't even have the availabilty of the
modern Marconi rig with Dacron polyesther sails. Nor did the Clipper
ships. And, yes, stainless steel is superior in just about every way to
old-fashioned galvanized standing rigging. You can go ahead and smear
all the tar you want on your inferior galvanized crap and brag about how
long it lasts but you won't impress anybody doing it.


Willie, you just plain don;t know what you are talking about. Why is
my roll up mainsail more likely to unroll then a rolled up jib and at
least 90 percent of the boats I see have roller furling jibs. Even
your swan 68 comes standard with a roller furling foresail.

Get real again. During storms jibs and jennys unroll all the time at
marinas and flog themselves to death. I've watched no fewer than four
boats at anchor with wind-ups that unrolled in a storm and flogged
themselves to shreds. If you aren't aware of this you'd better start
asking around. My Swan has sails that roll up inside the boom. That's
the only acceptable kind of roll-up to have.


Your figure of a 30% loss in efficiency is ridicules. If it were true
then my boat would sail substantially slower then it did with the
hanked on main but in fact it is impossible to tell the difference. In
fact, because I am able to carry the ideal amount of sail for wind
conditions, it appears that passages are actually quicker then they
were with the old mainsail.

I don't think it's so ridiculous. If your sail rolls up to an eight inch
diameter roll that means you have to set it four inches behind the mast.
That's a four inch slot to mess up the aerodynamics of the system. As
for telling the difference you wouldn't be able to unless you fitted
one, tested in in known winds. Then fitted the other and tested it in
known winds and then did a comparison. If you expect to tell by the seat
of the pants while sitting in the cockpit of a thirty ton boat then
you're daft.

f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef,
say
six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed
4
feet would you be going faster?

Nonsense, you're forgetting all about that big roll in the luff which
screws up the aerodynamics. You seem to have the old fashioned idea that
a sail is just surface area for the wind to push on. It is going
downwind but on the wind it becomes an airfoil and airfoils MUST have an
airfoil shape. A big sausage roll on the luff of is not an airfoil
shape. A large screwed up airfoil will provide less power than a smaller
proper airfoil.


You are right. and the reef points are about 6 feet apart, depending
on how big a boat you have. So you must reef in six foot slabs when in
fact it might be better to only reef 4 feet but because the reef
cringles are at six feet that is the distance you have to shorten
sail. The roller, on the other hand can let in or out the sail inches
at a time and thus can maintain the ideal sail area for the wind
force.

Nonsense yet again as I explained about. Your sausage sail even if
larger is less powerful than a proper smaller airfoil on points of sail
except downwind.


I fully agree with you about the storm sail and have such a track
fitted along with the appropriate halyards, sheets and other gear. I
also have a storm trisail with all of its rigging if required. The
roller system does not preclude the use of storm sails.

You have to take it down to get the damned thing out of the way, don't
you. I don't know about you but I sure don't want my storm trysail
chafing on some stupid wind-up hardware.

Why in God's world should it jam? Internally it is just a long piece
of plastic pipe rotating on a S.S. cable. As far as flogging I will
guarantee that I can change sail area faster then you can with your
slab reefing and with far less flogging. And without leaving the
cockpit.

EVERYBODY whose ever sailed with roll-ups for any length of time has had
jams and snags. It's part of the game.

If you don;t know enough about my boat to talk specifics then why did
you make the statement " the more I come to realize he has fallen prey
to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which
do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising." ,as you
did above. Now you are admitting that you don't know anything about my
boat. So either your statement was simple footlessness or a lie.

That conclusion isn't hard to come by. One need only look at your being
in one place too long to be any kind of cruiser. One of the reasons
people stay too long is their boats are too much for them. Either too
large or too complicated or both together. Admit it, I'm right.


Now you tell me that "You need to become a little more realistic about
your method of operation." and if I ask you what are my methods of
operation you will admit that you don;t know anything about my methods
of operation. Is this more idiotic ranting or simply another lie?

Sorry but I thought it was a clear statement. Your method of operation
is to sit at a dock and partake of the Internet for months at a time.
That should speak for itself, shouldn't it?


With a proper sized cruising boat one never has a need for a windlass
or
electric winch. A proper sized cruising boat has systems one man can
handle using the power God gave him. If you can't hand your ground
tackle yourself then your boat's too big for you.


You are an idiot if you really mean that statement and it is not just
your usual bluster. If what you say is true then I assume that you
have no winches at all on your boat. No halyard winches; no sheet
winches; no anchor winch. Nothing but the strength in your arm.

You need to read it again, that's why I left it in above. Notice I said
electric winch. You jumped to saying I said all winches. I did not. I
have winches on my boat but they aren't electric. Arm power is all I
need. Two-speed manual winches generate lots of power. As for a windlass
I have none. I do have a very large manual sheet winch on the foredeck
that can be used to bust out a recalcitrant 35 pound Danforth but I can
easily hand the anchor once it's busted out.


Well, Willie, you just gave yourself away. You've got a 23, maybe 25
foot boat, maximum, because you can't handle genoa sheets on anything
bigger without winches. You use rope to anchor which might be all
right in some muddy creek but won't hack it in rocks and coral like we
have over here.

An invalid conclusion. I said electric winches. Manual winches are all
one needs for sheets, etc. Even the America's cup boats use only manual
winches and they have huge sails. As for anchor rodes I use chain and
rope. All chain rodes are totally unnecessary. And look what people who
use all chain rodes do. Then end up using a length of line as a snubber
so the chain doesn't snatch the fitting out of the deck.


You say "Their home is attuned to the sea and has limited systems
that only lubbers think they need."

Why, if your home is attuned to the sea do you have these systems that
only lubbers think they need? I thought you claimed to be a sailor and
now you are telling me that you have this lubberly equipment on your
boat.

What lubberly equipment are you talking about. Of course I have
navigation electonics and electric depth sounder and VHF and manual
winches and an aluminum mast and stainless steel standing rigging and
all the usual modern things. I have a head with a hand pump and a
stainless steel sink and autopilots. I'm no fool. But the things I have
work and I don't go tinkering with them and changing them out as if I
were some kind of expert engineer like you do. I sail and if something
works I maintain it and keep it working. If something won't work it gets
tossed overboard. That's the way it should be.


and arrive in another port almost unnoticed.

That might be true where you are but try it in this part of the world
and you will find your boat impounded and yourself in jail. You do not
leave a country and enter another country without complying with the
certain formalities. You obviously don't cruise foreign or I wouldn't
have to tell you that.

That's not what I meant and you know it. You're grasping at straws now.
I guess I should have realized I was talking to a nit-picker and said
unnoticed by most other cruising sailors. In other words they wake up
and see a new boat in the anchorage because they never saw or heard me
come in and anchor or come out from C and I and anchor. Satisfied now,
Buster?

Ah Ha! Now I know where you get all your weird ideas, you've been
reading Tristen Jones, haven't you?

I read several of his books years ago. He was a tall tale teller to be
sure. But, I think more like and identify with classical sailors the
likes of Marin-Marie, Alain Gerbault, Harry Pidgeon, and Robin
Knox-Johnston. Jones wasn't genuine enough. He was more a guy who sailed
so he could sell books than a sailor who wrote books between sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:07:06 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:24:30 +0700, wrote:

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


snip endless and useless "tit-for-tat" back and forth between troll
and fish


wrote in message

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Bruce - PLEASE spit the hook before you drag the whole group under
with you. Wilbur/Neal is here because his former hangout at
alt.sailing asa got so worn out that it is now mostly a ghost town.
All the worthwhile and even most of the worthless posters have left in
disgust. He's set his sights on doing the same here. Either kill file
or ignore him, but DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE HIS PRESENCE IN ANY MANNER.
EVER!

I'm assuming that you are wise enough to benefit from "a word to the
wise"


I second that, except that the other newsgroup is alive and well. Most
people figured it out pretty quickly to ignore most of what he says.

Not true. That group used to have 20 or more regulars, most of who
contributed almost daily and were worth reading - and over 100 posts a
day. Now it's a small handful of humorless chumps (4? 5?) who bicker
back and forth over nothing. It amounts to, "You are... No YOU are".
You, yourself, are engaged in yet another of those over there right
now with "Macho Joe". Very tedious, and not worth the trip from
anywhere at this point.

It would be a real shame if that were allowed to fester over here,
too. Hence my advice.




You need to do a recount, and Joe and I are having a mostly civil
discussion. Joe's a good guy. This group is more about the details. We chat
about the bigger social issues. :-)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:29:27 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:24:30 +0700, wrote:

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


snip endless and useless "tit-for-tat" back and forth between troll
and fish


wrote in message

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Bruce - PLEASE spit the hook before you drag the whole group under
with you. Wilbur/Neal is here because his former hangout at
alt.sailing asa got so worn out that it is now mostly a ghost town.
All the worthwhile and even most of the worthless posters have left in
disgust. He's set his sights on doing the same here. Either kill file
or ignore him, but DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE HIS PRESENCE IN ANY MANNER.
EVER!

I'm assuming that you are wise enough to benefit from "a word to the
wise"

I must apologize to the group. I had found it rather amusing to
demolish each of his arguments with logic only to watch him come up
with a new one. But I agree that the whole thing has gotten out of
hand. As Voltaire said - Common sense is not so common.



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)