4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration, as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.

A quickie review for those new to the saga: We started looking in the 30-40
foot, 60k range, in the Virgins (all), with a list of about 50 and going
aboard more than 30. We'd had counseling/haranguing/ridicule to the effect
that it would never happen - both parameters were significantly too small.

The second search, after that proved essentially fruitless, despite some
tantalizing boats, including a very meaningful example of a boat which
eventually sold for just more than half the original asking price, was of
the Florida perimeter, in up to 45 feet and 100k. That list, culled from a
couple of (turned out to be identical - I didn't know that boats.com and
YachtWorld were the same - 1000+ boat searches) had over 80 boats, of which
we boarded nearly 60. The exceptions (60 vs 80) were mostly duplications of
a type which didn't work, which was most of them. However, there *were*
many I'd fit on and be happy with but which didn't meet Lydia's
needs/desires. In the end, we had a long discussion about what those were,
and most of them turned out to be very practical, so I plugged them into my
mentality, as future searching would have to be on my own while she stayed
beavering away at the mortgage-origination business for the bank. We'd seen
a couple of boats which were very attractive, so when I redid the search a
little later, to revisit them, I also added some which met the new criteria.
I went back a few weeks later, knocking out both of our previous interests
as not working, but, out of the ~40 additional boats seen, offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

So, at this point, I'd been aboard legions of boats which didn't fit (I'm
6-4 and refuse to live the rest of my life if I have to hunch to stand or
curl up in a ball to sleep), and the rest didn't fit the layout needs.
Summer passed with us getting married on my front lawn and bidding farewell
to her mother after staying with us (from England) for 3 months. Then, the
search began anew.

This time I was going to see a boat which worked, or we weren't going to get
to go. The geography was from Baltimore to Corpus Christi, and all the
coastline in between. Over 1500 boats searched, and over 200 boats
selected, with (yet again, increased) parameters of up to 47' and 150k, and
not very many duplications of type.

The first leg of that was Baltimore to Charleston, over 60 boats boarded
(most on/off in less than a minute) out of about 80 selected. Hooray...
There were several which *could* fit, all under 45 feet. So, I went back
through the spreadsheet and struck all the remainder over 45'. Heh. I'd
been on a Morgan 46, but it was such a project boat, that my notes made only
passing reference to its being a 'potential type boat' - one which could
work for us - and so those were struck from the list as I overlooked the
type.

The next leg of that search was the Florida perimeter, again. Even after
taking off the over-45 set, there were over 80 boats, and I got aboard more
than 60. However, about halfway through that trip, at Jordan Yachts, since
there were a bunch of boats all in the same place, the broker took me aboard
a bunch which weren't on the list I'd sent him. An amazingly rehabbed M46
was among them. Boinnnnggg! Light-over-my-head cartoon revelation. This
boat works. So, I quickly did a review of current boats available on
YachtWorld and went to see all of the ones in FL, including doubling back to
the west coast at the end of the trip for the last 3. End result of this
trip was an additional few types of boats which could work.

So, after the entire Christmas holidays being spent reviewing the 10+ hours
of videos and reports/writeups I did, we narrowed our focus to only 4 types.
Since we had, now, finally, a range of choices, we also elected to drop the
last leg of this search, eliminating the Gulf coast from north of St.
Petersburg to Corpus. Further review led us to drop all the others and
focus on the M46. Whew. Only about a year of searching, over 3000 boats
researched, over 300 selected, and about 200 boarded, more than doubling our
original budget, but we now have something which works on all levels.

So, off we go, again, over the New Year's break. We started on the west
coast, looking at one which needed some rehab/upgrades, but at a bargain
price. We took along a recommended craftsman to look at what needed doing,
and were pleasantly surprised at the initial non-binding, verbal, estimate.
That boat was very highly equipped for cruising, including solar, wind and
towed generators, watermaker, and even a washer and dryer. Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

In my research, I'd talked/internetted to as many M46 owners as possible,
and set my mind at ease as to their suitability for our purpose. I also
heard from a couple of FL owners who proved to be invaluable resources.

One offered to have us out sailing with them, and stay overnight. After a
bit of workarounds, we did just that, and got to hang out at their dock,
too, which was another marvelous confirmation of the camaraderie of the
cruising and liveaboard community. Suffice it to say, we enjoyed the sail
and the opportunity to experience a slice of liveaboard with another couple
taking up space. They went with us to the boat which had caused the scales
to fall from my eyes.

The other was an original owner of 23 years who'd just finished over 70k in
work on his boat. Before you get palpitations as I did, it turns out that
he's a (now) retired pilot with no kids, so his boat is his life, and gets
anything he thinks is neat, along with intensive maintenance, so he's put
about a quarter-mil into it since he's owned it. Having owned it from new,
and having all that work/upgrades/maintenance on it, he knew virtually
anything there was to know about them. Anyway, he went with us on two of
the boats, and was able to point out things I'd known about from my
research, but didn't know exactly how to pinpoint. Aside from running all
the gear and banging every square inch of the hull and deck, it was pretty
much like a survey to do these boats with him. Much to my pleasure, the
boat I'd told Lydia was "our boat" had only one (common) item that he
recommended attention on. This boat had received major upgrades to make
suitable for singlehanding, all of which were appropriate expenditures,
though I would not have made them. There's too many to list here; suffice
it to say one's not likely to fall overboard, and everything can be done
from the cockpit other than handing the lines to the dock - but the boat can
be put, stationary, at any position, for long enough to go do the lines,
singlehanded. The owner died shortly after making the upgrades, and it was
listed as an 'estate sale' about 6 months ago. It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased. We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate, if it
ever was. Which or whatever, the boat has had no evident attention since it
was put at the dock, with various indicators of a hurried departure, so I
don't think the current owner visits it. That's probably to our benefit,
and, being an attorney (you know, the kind who makes mincemeat out of his
opponent in court and then goes to lunch with him), we expect that future
relationships will be businesslike without personal feelings intruding.

So, the liveaboard couple and we went off to the pub and hashed out the
realities of the 3 in FTL. They resulted in pictures and video of my
calling my broker, getting confirmation that what I had in mind (which was
15k short of what Lydia wanted to offer) was appropriate and not likely to
jinx our chances should it not be accepted, on the rehabbed singlehander.
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

So, over 3000 boats searched, over 300 selected, and about 200 boarded
later, we believe we have our type (make and model) as well as the
particular example we want. There's backups to that particular one; our VI
broker is researching the 3 over there in case this doesn't fly and the
other FL boats don't work, and, failing that, we don't have to have the boat
immediately, and the broker through whom we offered, my first choice back
when all this started, I'm sure, can find other examples.

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Hey Skip,
Congratulations and I'm sure keeping my fingers crossed for you.

What a long, strange trip it's been!

Fair winds - Dan Best

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration, as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.

A quickie review for those new to the saga: We started looking in the 30-40
foot, 60k range, in the Virgins (all), with a list of about 50 and going
aboard more than 30. We'd had counseling/haranguing/ridicule to the effect
that it would never happen - both parameters were significantly too small.

The second search, after that proved essentially fruitless, despite some
tantalizing boats, including a very meaningful example of a boat which
eventually sold for just more than half the original asking price, was of
the Florida perimeter, in up to 45 feet and 100k. That list, culled from a
couple of (turned out to be identical - I didn't know that boats.com and
YachtWorld were the same - 1000+ boat searches) had over 80 boats, of which
we boarded nearly 60. The exceptions (60 vs 80) were mostly duplications of
a type which didn't work, which was most of them. However, there *were*
many I'd fit on and be happy with but which didn't meet Lydia's
needs/desires. In the end, we had a long discussion about what those were,
and most of them turned out to be very practical, so I plugged them into my
mentality, as future searching would have to be on my own while she stayed
beavering away at the mortgage-origination business for the bank. We'd seen
a couple of boats which were very attractive, so when I redid the search a
little later, to revisit them, I also added some which met the new criteria.
I went back a few weeks later, knocking out both of our previous interests
as not working, but, out of the ~40 additional boats seen, offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

So, at this point, I'd been aboard legions of boats which didn't fit (I'm
6-4 and refuse to live the rest of my life if I have to hunch to stand or
curl up in a ball to sleep), and the rest didn't fit the layout needs.
Summer passed with us getting married on my front lawn and bidding farewell
to her mother after staying with us (from England) for 3 months. Then, the
search began anew.

This time I was going to see a boat which worked, or we weren't going to get
to go. The geography was from Baltimore to Corpus Christi, and all the
coastline in between. Over 1500 boats searched, and over 200 boats
selected, with (yet again, increased) parameters of up to 47' and 150k, and
not very many duplications of type.

The first leg of that was Baltimore to Charleston, over 60 boats boarded
(most on/off in less than a minute) out of about 80 selected. Hooray...
There were several which *could* fit, all under 45 feet. So, I went back
through the spreadsheet and struck all the remainder over 45'. Heh. I'd
been on a Morgan 46, but it was such a project boat, that my notes made only
passing reference to its being a 'potential type boat' - one which could
work for us - and so those were struck from the list as I overlooked the
type.

The next leg of that search was the Florida perimeter, again. Even after
taking off the over-45 set, there were over 80 boats, and I got aboard more
than 60. However, about halfway through that trip, at Jordan Yachts, since
there were a bunch of boats all in the same place, the broker took me aboard
a bunch which weren't on the list I'd sent him. An amazingly rehabbed M46
was among them. Boinnnnggg! Light-over-my-head cartoon revelation. This
boat works. So, I quickly did a review of current boats available on
YachtWorld and went to see all of the ones in FL, including doubling back to
the west coast at the end of the trip for the last 3. End result of this
trip was an additional few types of boats which could work.

So, after the entire Christmas holidays being spent reviewing the 10+ hours
of videos and reports/writeups I did, we narrowed our focus to only 4 types.
Since we had, now, finally, a range of choices, we also elected to drop the
last leg of this search, eliminating the Gulf coast from north of St.
Petersburg to Corpus. Further review led us to drop all the others and
focus on the M46. Whew. Only about a year of searching, over 3000 boats
researched, over 300 selected, and about 200 boarded, more than doubling our
original budget, but we now have something which works on all levels.

So, off we go, again, over the New Year's break. We started on the west
coast, looking at one which needed some rehab/upgrades, but at a bargain
price. We took along a recommended craftsman to look at what needed doing,
and were pleasantly surprised at the initial non-binding, verbal, estimate.
That boat was very highly equipped for cruising, including solar, wind and
towed generators, watermaker, and even a washer and dryer. Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

In my research, I'd talked/internetted to as many M46 owners as possible,
and set my mind at ease as to their suitability for our purpose. I also
heard from a couple of FL owners who proved to be invaluable resources.

One offered to have us out sailing with them, and stay overnight. After a
bit of workarounds, we did just that, and got to hang out at their dock,
too, which was another marvelous confirmation of the camaraderie of the
cruising and liveaboard community. Suffice it to say, we enjoyed the sail
and the opportunity to experience a slice of liveaboard with another couple
taking up space. They went with us to the boat which had caused the scales
to fall from my eyes.

The other was an original owner of 23 years who'd just finished over 70k in
work on his boat. Before you get palpitations as I did, it turns out that
he's a (now) retired pilot with no kids, so his boat is his life, and gets
anything he thinks is neat, along with intensive maintenance, so he's put
about a quarter-mil into it since he's owned it. Having owned it from new,
and having all that work/upgrades/maintenance on it, he knew virtually
anything there was to know about them. Anyway, he went with us on two of
the boats, and was able to point out things I'd known about from my
research, but didn't know exactly how to pinpoint. Aside from running all
the gear and banging every square inch of the hull and deck, it was pretty
much like a survey to do these boats with him. Much to my pleasure, the
boat I'd told Lydia was "our boat" had only one (common) item that he
recommended attention on. This boat had received major upgrades to make
suitable for singlehanding, all of which were appropriate expenditures,
though I would not have made them. There's too many to list here; suffice
it to say one's not likely to fall overboard, and everything can be done
from the cockpit other than handing the lines to the dock - but the boat can
be put, stationary, at any position, for long enough to go do the lines,
singlehanded. The owner died shortly after making the upgrades, and it was
listed as an 'estate sale' about 6 months ago. It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased. We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate, if it
ever was. Which or whatever, the boat has had no evident attention since it
was put at the dock, with various indicators of a hurried departure, so I
don't think the current owner visits it. That's probably to our benefit,
and, being an attorney (you know, the kind who makes mincemeat out of his
opponent in court and then goes to lunch with him), we expect that future
relationships will be businesslike without personal feelings intruding.

So, the liveaboard couple and we went off to the pub and hashed out the
realities of the 3 in FTL. They resulted in pictures and video of my
calling my broker, getting confirmation that what I had in mind (which was
15k short of what Lydia wanted to offer) was appropriate and not likely to
jinx our chances should it not be accepted, on the rehabbed singlehander.
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

So, over 3000 boats searched, over 300 selected, and about 200 boarded
later, we believe we have our type (make and model) as well as the
particular example we want. There's backups to that particular one; our VI
broker is researching the 3 over there in case this doesn't fly and the
other FL boats don't work, and, failing that, we don't have to have the boat
immediately, and the broker through whom we offered, my first choice back
when all this started, I'm sure, can find other examples.

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

L8R

Skip and Lydia


--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Hey Skip,
Congratulations and I'm sure keeping my fingers crossed for you.

What a long, strange trip it's been!

Fair winds - Dan Best

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration, as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.

A quickie review for those new to the saga: We started looking in the 30-40
foot, 60k range, in the Virgins (all), with a list of about 50 and going
aboard more than 30. We'd had counseling/haranguing/ridicule to the effect
that it would never happen - both parameters were significantly too small.

The second search, after that proved essentially fruitless, despite some
tantalizing boats, including a very meaningful example of a boat which
eventually sold for just more than half the original asking price, was of
the Florida perimeter, in up to 45 feet and 100k. That list, culled from a
couple of (turned out to be identical - I didn't know that boats.com and
YachtWorld were the same - 1000+ boat searches) had over 80 boats, of which
we boarded nearly 60. The exceptions (60 vs 80) were mostly duplications of
a type which didn't work, which was most of them. However, there *were*
many I'd fit on and be happy with but which didn't meet Lydia's
needs/desires. In the end, we had a long discussion about what those were,
and most of them turned out to be very practical, so I plugged them into my
mentality, as future searching would have to be on my own while she stayed
beavering away at the mortgage-origination business for the bank. We'd seen
a couple of boats which were very attractive, so when I redid the search a
little later, to revisit them, I also added some which met the new criteria.
I went back a few weeks later, knocking out both of our previous interests
as not working, but, out of the ~40 additional boats seen, offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

So, at this point, I'd been aboard legions of boats which didn't fit (I'm
6-4 and refuse to live the rest of my life if I have to hunch to stand or
curl up in a ball to sleep), and the rest didn't fit the layout needs.
Summer passed with us getting married on my front lawn and bidding farewell
to her mother after staying with us (from England) for 3 months. Then, the
search began anew.

This time I was going to see a boat which worked, or we weren't going to get
to go. The geography was from Baltimore to Corpus Christi, and all the
coastline in between. Over 1500 boats searched, and over 200 boats
selected, with (yet again, increased) parameters of up to 47' and 150k, and
not very many duplications of type.

The first leg of that was Baltimore to Charleston, over 60 boats boarded
(most on/off in less than a minute) out of about 80 selected. Hooray...
There were several which *could* fit, all under 45 feet. So, I went back
through the spreadsheet and struck all the remainder over 45'. Heh. I'd
been on a Morgan 46, but it was such a project boat, that my notes made only
passing reference to its being a 'potential type boat' - one which could
work for us - and so those were struck from the list as I overlooked the
type.

The next leg of that search was the Florida perimeter, again. Even after
taking off the over-45 set, there were over 80 boats, and I got aboard more
than 60. However, about halfway through that trip, at Jordan Yachts, since
there were a bunch of boats all in the same place, the broker took me aboard
a bunch which weren't on the list I'd sent him. An amazingly rehabbed M46
was among them. Boinnnnggg! Light-over-my-head cartoon revelation. This
boat works. So, I quickly did a review of current boats available on
YachtWorld and went to see all of the ones in FL, including doubling back to
the west coast at the end of the trip for the last 3. End result of this
trip was an additional few types of boats which could work.

So, after the entire Christmas holidays being spent reviewing the 10+ hours
of videos and reports/writeups I did, we narrowed our focus to only 4 types.
Since we had, now, finally, a range of choices, we also elected to drop the
last leg of this search, eliminating the Gulf coast from north of St.
Petersburg to Corpus. Further review led us to drop all the others and
focus on the M46. Whew. Only about a year of searching, over 3000 boats
researched, over 300 selected, and about 200 boarded, more than doubling our
original budget, but we now have something which works on all levels.

So, off we go, again, over the New Year's break. We started on the west
coast, looking at one which needed some rehab/upgrades, but at a bargain
price. We took along a recommended craftsman to look at what needed doing,
and were pleasantly surprised at the initial non-binding, verbal, estimate.
That boat was very highly equipped for cruising, including solar, wind and
towed generators, watermaker, and even a washer and dryer. Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

In my research, I'd talked/internetted to as many M46 owners as possible,
and set my mind at ease as to their suitability for our purpose. I also
heard from a couple of FL owners who proved to be invaluable resources.

One offered to have us out sailing with them, and stay overnight. After a
bit of workarounds, we did just that, and got to hang out at their dock,
too, which was another marvelous confirmation of the camaraderie of the
cruising and liveaboard community. Suffice it to say, we enjoyed the sail
and the opportunity to experience a slice of liveaboard with another couple
taking up space. They went with us to the boat which had caused the scales
to fall from my eyes.

The other was an original owner of 23 years who'd just finished over 70k in
work on his boat. Before you get palpitations as I did, it turns out that
he's a (now) retired pilot with no kids, so his boat is his life, and gets
anything he thinks is neat, along with intensive maintenance, so he's put
about a quarter-mil into it since he's owned it. Having owned it from new,
and having all that work/upgrades/maintenance on it, he knew virtually
anything there was to know about them. Anyway, he went with us on two of
the boats, and was able to point out things I'd known about from my
research, but didn't know exactly how to pinpoint. Aside from running all
the gear and banging every square inch of the hull and deck, it was pretty
much like a survey to do these boats with him. Much to my pleasure, the
boat I'd told Lydia was "our boat" had only one (common) item that he
recommended attention on. This boat had received major upgrades to make
suitable for singlehanding, all of which were appropriate expenditures,
though I would not have made them. There's too many to list here; suffice
it to say one's not likely to fall overboard, and everything can be done
from the cockpit other than handing the lines to the dock - but the boat can
be put, stationary, at any position, for long enough to go do the lines,
singlehanded. The owner died shortly after making the upgrades, and it was
listed as an 'estate sale' about 6 months ago. It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased. We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate, if it
ever was. Which or whatever, the boat has had no evident attention since it
was put at the dock, with various indicators of a hurried departure, so I
don't think the current owner visits it. That's probably to our benefit,
and, being an attorney (you know, the kind who makes mincemeat out of his
opponent in court and then goes to lunch with him), we expect that future
relationships will be businesslike without personal feelings intruding.

So, the liveaboard couple and we went off to the pub and hashed out the
realities of the 3 in FTL. They resulted in pictures and video of my
calling my broker, getting confirmation that what I had in mind (which was
15k short of what Lydia wanted to offer) was appropriate and not likely to
jinx our chances should it not be accepted, on the rehabbed singlehander.
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

So, over 3000 boats searched, over 300 selected, and about 200 boarded
later, we believe we have our type (make and model) as well as the
particular example we want. There's backups to that particular one; our VI
broker is researching the 3 over there in case this doesn't fly and the
other FL boats don't work, and, failing that, we don't have to have the boat
immediately, and the broker through whom we offered, my first choice back
when all this started, I'm sure, can find other examples.

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

L8R

Skip and Lydia


--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the
research and travel I've done ...

I must say you have a lot more patience for this venture than I either have,
or am willing to develop. I hope your results are commensurate with your
efforts, old salt.

Anyway. I'm in the market for a late model Buick and I was kinda wonderin'
if you'd maybe look around a bit for me ...

Jus' kidding.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the
research and travel I've done ...

I must say you have a lot more patience for this venture than I either have,
or am willing to develop. I hope your results are commensurate with your
efforts, old salt.

Anyway. I'm in the market for a late model Buick and I was kinda wonderin'
if you'd maybe look around a bit for me ...

Jus' kidding.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

....offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

Just as well. The times we tried to open negotiations with owner/sellers that
wanted too much money, it turned out for the best.

...... Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

You pay extra for 'curb appeal' and if all the boat needs is clean & polish,
then it ould be a better deal. Hard to tell about it's condition & equipment
from th web page though.


..... It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased. We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate, if it
ever was.

AA-OO-GA warning warning
This sounds like a burn deal in the making. Prudence would suggest putting this
boat at the bottom of the priority list, unless it's significantly cheaper *and*
you get your own big-gun lawyer to deal with the selling lawyer. Unless you want
him to pocket a lot of your money and then take you to lunch after your court
appearance....




It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

Easy- most people pick a boat far more casually with a lot less data & logic
input. Which makes sense, because the more logicallly you look at it, the less
reason to buy a boat in the first place. However it sounds like you have covered
all the bases and are going to have a great boat (whichever one it ends up
being).

Fresh Breezes-
Doug King

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

....offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

Just as well. The times we tried to open negotiations with owner/sellers that
wanted too much money, it turned out for the best.

...... Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

You pay extra for 'curb appeal' and if all the boat needs is clean & polish,
then it ould be a better deal. Hard to tell about it's condition & equipment
from th web page though.


..... It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased. We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate, if it
ever was.

AA-OO-GA warning warning
This sounds like a burn deal in the making. Prudence would suggest putting this
boat at the bottom of the priority list, unless it's significantly cheaper *and*
you get your own big-gun lawyer to deal with the selling lawyer. Unless you want
him to pocket a lot of your money and then take you to lunch after your court
appearance....




It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

Easy- most people pick a boat far more casually with a lot less data & logic
input. Which makes sense, because the more logicallly you look at it, the less
reason to buy a boat in the first place. However it sounds like you have covered
all the bases and are going to have a great boat (whichever one it ends up
being).

Fresh Breezes-
Doug King

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

....offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal
never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

Just as well. The times we tried to open negotiations with owner/sellers
that
wanted too much money, it turned out for the best.

In the interests of brevity (who, me?!?), I didn't mention that the type is
off our list, now, because I hit (soft top, though) everywhere on the boat,
and can't stand in the separate shower, even in the little cubby space of
the caprail, in the master, at all. That aside, that's a well-equipped
example, at a reasonable price, of that type. Since there were some
compromises on the type, we didn't pursue it in order to let the listing
marinate for a while. Things have a way of working out...

...... Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have
been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those
interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb
appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

You pay extra for 'curb appeal' and if all the boat needs is clean &
polish,
then it ould be a better deal. Hard to tell about it's condition &
equipment
from th web page though.

Here's the YW listing:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...92&slim=ywpbs&

That one is clearly my favorite, as it shouldn't take nearly as much to
bring it up to snuff as the difference between list and the other boat's
list. However, we're hopeful of getting the other rehabbed one
substantially under list, and the seller of the first isn't budging, it
seems, so the difference level might be shorter in reality. Point of
reference is that the GS was at 55% of list, and this one is at 72.6% of
list. Lot better chance of making this one happen, I think, and from what
we see on the market, this is - while in the high end - substantially more
boat than any we've seen, of any type, let alone the M46s. Still, the
'cruising boat' - as we call it - is a good candidate for upgrade, as it,
too, is in relatively good nick and very reasonably priced relative to the
others available.


..... It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased.
We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate,
if it
ever was.

AA-OO-GA warning warning
This sounds like a burn deal in the making. Prudence would suggest putting
this

She's not part of the team yet, but I'd like to meet her :{))

boat at the bottom of the priority list, unless it's significantly cheaper
*and*
you get your own big-gun lawyer to deal with the selling lawyer. Unless
you want
him to pocket a lot of your money and then take you to lunch after your
court
appearance....

Heh. That was a metaphor (what's a metaphor? It's for...) - we'll be
dealing with the broker. It's one of the earlier posts' referenced 'high
priced spread' - but even that's relative. The M46 original-owner-from-new
and my (buyer's) broker agreed that you could take this boat to the flea
market and part it out and get most of your money back. That was being
facetious, of course, but it's a *very* unusual boat, particularly for 1980.

I've got the prior Morgan Yachts Service Manager for the entire production
run and several years beyond (and also QC manager for a goodly part of it)
lined up as surveyor. Not only does he know how they were made, and has
surveyed umpteen of them, he also climbs the mast and inspects the head
rigging with a magnifiying glass. No deal until that survey and suitable
wringing out in sea trial. My broker's also the owner of a dive and
cleaning service, and I'll have him dive the boat before we agree to a
survey, so as to have a heads-up about the condition of the bottom, though
all we've heard about suggest these boats are very resistant to blistering.
Everything so far suggests just a stroke of bad fortune for the owner, who
did much more than I would have in prep to leave.

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the
research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you
know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that
my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

Easy- most people pick a boat far more casually with a lot less data &
logic
input. Which makes sense, because the more logicallly you look at it, the
less
reason to buy a boat in the first place. However it sounds like you have
covered
all the bases and are going to have a great boat (whichever one it ends up
being).

Heh. It won't be for lack of looking and being reasonably picky :{))

L8R

Skip and Lydia, changing sigs below, as we seem to have figuratively cast
off the bowlines....

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

....offering a
lowball on a Gulfstar 44 which looked like it could work. That deal
never
panned out, as it wasn't countered other than verbally to the effect of
'when you're serious, come back and we'll talk about it.'.

Just as well. The times we tried to open negotiations with owner/sellers
that
wanted too much money, it turned out for the best.

In the interests of brevity (who, me?!?), I didn't mention that the type is
off our list, now, because I hit (soft top, though) everywhere on the boat,
and can't stand in the separate shower, even in the little cubby space of
the caprail, in the master, at all. That aside, that's a well-equipped
example, at a reasonable price, of that type. Since there were some
compromises on the type, we didn't pursue it in order to let the listing
marinate for a while. Things have a way of working out...

...... Sort of an
interesting story on that boat that we learned about in talking with the
owner of the canal house behind which it's tied while the owners have
been
off it for 3 years, and it's shown at fortydays.org, for those
interested in
it. This boat is a backup at this point, as Lydia's high on curb
appeal,
and this needs a bit of polish.

You pay extra for 'curb appeal' and if all the boat needs is clean &
polish,
then it ould be a better deal. Hard to tell about it's condition &
equipment
from th web page though.

Here's the YW listing:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...92&slim=ywpbs&

That one is clearly my favorite, as it shouldn't take nearly as much to
bring it up to snuff as the difference between list and the other boat's
list. However, we're hopeful of getting the other rehabbed one
substantially under list, and the seller of the first isn't budging, it
seems, so the difference level might be shorter in reality. Point of
reference is that the GS was at 55% of list, and this one is at 72.6% of
list. Lot better chance of making this one happen, I think, and from what
we see on the market, this is - while in the high end - substantially more
boat than any we've seen, of any type, let alone the M46s. Still, the
'cruising boat' - as we call it - is a good candidate for upgrade, as it,
too, is in relatively good nick and very reasonably priced relative to the
others available.


..... It's now owned by an
attorney who somehow had connections with the family or the deceased.
We
don't now know the relationship, or if there's some partnership or other
financial personal interest in play here, but it's *not* in an estate,
if it
ever was.

AA-OO-GA warning warning
This sounds like a burn deal in the making. Prudence would suggest putting
this

She's not part of the team yet, but I'd like to meet her :{))

boat at the bottom of the priority list, unless it's significantly cheaper
*and*
you get your own big-gun lawyer to deal with the selling lawyer. Unless
you want
him to pocket a lot of your money and then take you to lunch after your
court
appearance....

Heh. That was a metaphor (what's a metaphor? It's for...) - we'll be
dealing with the broker. It's one of the earlier posts' referenced 'high
priced spread' - but even that's relative. The M46 original-owner-from-new
and my (buyer's) broker agreed that you could take this boat to the flea
market and part it out and get most of your money back. That was being
facetious, of course, but it's a *very* unusual boat, particularly for 1980.

I've got the prior Morgan Yachts Service Manager for the entire production
run and several years beyond (and also QC manager for a goodly part of it)
lined up as surveyor. Not only does he know how they were made, and has
surveyed umpteen of them, he also climbs the mast and inspects the head
rigging with a magnifiying glass. No deal until that survey and suitable
wringing out in sea trial. My broker's also the owner of a dive and
cleaning service, and I'll have him dive the boat before we agree to a
survey, so as to have a heads-up about the condition of the bottom, though
all we've heard about suggest these boats are very resistant to blistering.
Everything so far suggests just a stroke of bad fortune for the owner, who
did much more than I would have in prep to leave.

It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the
research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you
know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that
my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

Easy- most people pick a boat far more casually with a lot less data &
logic
input. Which makes sense, because the more logicallly you look at it, the
less
reason to buy a boat in the first place. However it sounds like you have
covered
all the bases and are going to have a great boat (whichever one it ends up
being).

Heh. It won't be for lack of looking and being reasonably picky :{))

L8R

Skip and Lydia, changing sigs below, as we seem to have figuratively cast
off the bowlines....

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

x-no-archive:yes

"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:
snip This boat had received major upgrades to make
suitable for singlehanding, all of which were appropriate expenditures,
though I would not have made them. There's too many to list here; suffice
it to say one's not likely to fall overboard, and everything can be done
from the cockpit other than handing the lines to the dock - but the boat can
be put, stationary, at any position, for long enough to go do the lines,
singlehanded.

We want to be able to do everything from the cockpit even though there
are 2 of us. I can't tell you how many times I've blessed the fact
that no one has to go out on the deck in rough weather.

And the once that Bob had to go out there before we had jacklines was
scary for me even though we were only in the Chesapeake and he had an
autoinflat PFD on. I didn't think I could possibly get back to pick
him up if he fell off.

snip
It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

We were lucky in that we chartered a boat that Bob promptly fell in
love with. We looked at other boats, but it only confirmed that we
wanted this particular make, although Bob and I had a disagreement
about the model we should get.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

x-no-archive:yes

"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:
snip This boat had received major upgrades to make
suitable for singlehanding, all of which were appropriate expenditures,
though I would not have made them. There's too many to list here; suffice
it to say one's not likely to fall overboard, and everything can be done
from the cockpit other than handing the lines to the dock - but the boat can
be put, stationary, at any position, for long enough to go do the lines,
singlehanded.

We want to be able to do everything from the cockpit even though there
are 2 of us. I can't tell you how many times I've blessed the fact
that no one has to go out on the deck in rough weather.

And the once that Bob had to go out there before we had jacklines was
scary for me even though we were only in the Chesapeake and he had an
autoinflat PFD on. I didn't think I could possibly get back to pick
him up if he fell off.

snip
It's been a long trip, and I'm blessed to have been able to do the research
and travel I've done. Short of having a boat already in mind that you know
will work for you, and is everything you want it to be (accepting that my
height added inconceivably to the challenge), I can't imagine how anyone
who's employed could do this in less than half a lifetime.

We were lucky in that we chartered a boat that Bob promptly fell in
love with. We looked at other boats, but it only confirmed that we
wanted this particular make, although Bob and I had a disagreement
about the model we should get.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Damn it takes you a lot of lookin... I bought a new "used" boat last year
and it took only one boat to look at. Maybe I already knew what I wanted
and didn't want to spend thousands on trips etc.

Hope that you like the Morgan. Hope that it is a bit better than the OI41
that normally has to run the engine while tacking.

Capn Bill

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Damn it takes you a lot of lookin... I bought a new "used" boat last year
and it took only one boat to look at. Maybe I already knew what I wanted
and didn't want to spend thousands on trips etc.

Hope that you like the Morgan. Hope that it is a bit better than the OI41
that normally has to run the engine while tacking.

Capn Bill

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Greetings...

"Capn Willy" wrote in message
. com...
Damn it takes you a lot of lookin... I bought a new "used" boat last year
and it took only one boat to look at. Maybe I already knew what I wanted
and didn't want to spend thousands on trips etc.

Now that we know what we want, we won't be spending much time looking,
either. I gather you've not read the preceding stuff, or you'd know that
this was hardly idle windowshopping, nor thousands to spend to get there.
In fact, since my college rowing buddy had a full house, my most expensive
room nights were on this trip, both at $50 - for the Marriott in WPB and the
Doubletree in FTL on the beach... The other night was aboard a Morgan 46.

Hope that you like the Morgan. Hope that it is a bit better than the OI41
that normally has to run the engine while tacking.

I can't speak to those. This one (well, technically, its sistership) tacked
in 5 knots of wind and was at between 6-7 knots over ground in both
directions at about 8-10 apparent at about 35* off the wind, and has a
fin/skeg underbody with a long forefoot to keep it tracking. The ability of
this type to sail was one of my first concerns, since allayed. Sisterships
report successful way at 30* in higher air and a totally stable freight
train at up to and including 50 knots.

I hope we like it too. Thanks for your interest :{))

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a wide, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Greetings...

"Capn Willy" wrote in message
. com...
Damn it takes you a lot of lookin... I bought a new "used" boat last year
and it took only one boat to look at. Maybe I already knew what I wanted
and didn't want to spend thousands on trips etc.

Now that we know what we want, we won't be spending much time looking,
either. I gather you've not read the preceding stuff, or you'd know that
this was hardly idle windowshopping, nor thousands to spend to get there.
In fact, since my college rowing buddy had a full house, my most expensive
room nights were on this trip, both at $50 - for the Marriott in WPB and the
Doubletree in FTL on the beach... The other night was aboard a Morgan 46.

Hope that you like the Morgan. Hope that it is a bit better than the OI41
that normally has to run the engine while tacking.

I can't speak to those. This one (well, technically, its sistership) tacked
in 5 knots of wind and was at between 6-7 knots over ground in both
directions at about 8-10 apparent at about 35* off the wind, and has a
fin/skeg underbody with a long forefoot to keep it tracking. The ability of
this type to sail was one of my first concerns, since allayed. Sisterships
report successful way at 30* in higher air and a totally stable freight
train at up to and including 50 knots.

I hope we like it too. Thanks for your interest :{))

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a wide, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Heh. That was a metaphor (what's a metaphor? It's for...) - we'll be
dealing with the broker.

Having the broker in the middle adds a bit of security, but from what you've said this still sounds mighty fishy. I am
very leery of dealing with lawyers in any business deal, too many of them have a nasty habit of considering whatever
the transaction is to be a means of transferring your money into their pocket, period. And they can't be intimidated
except by another meaner lawyer.


It's one of the earlier posts' referenced 'high
priced spread' - but even that's relative. The M46 original-owner-from-new
and my (buyer's) broker agreed that you could take this boat to the flea
market and part it out and get most of your money back. That was being
facetious, of course, but it's a *very* unusual boat, particularly for 1980.

Sounds good. It also sounds like you should budget two or three days for survey and at least a full day for sea trial.
Remember you want to test the operation of absolutely everything, with the assumption that anything which isn't
demonstrated to be in perfect working order is nonfunctional. This turns out to be rational, not pessimistic.

Also if the seller has the owners manuals & *accurate* wiring diagrams for all the upgrades & additions, that's key.

Good luck with it!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Heh. That was a metaphor (what's a metaphor? It's for...) - we'll be
dealing with the broker.

Having the broker in the middle adds a bit of security, but from what you've said this still sounds mighty fishy. I am
very leery of dealing with lawyers in any business deal, too many of them have a nasty habit of considering whatever
the transaction is to be a means of transferring your money into their pocket, period. And they can't be intimidated
except by another meaner lawyer.


It's one of the earlier posts' referenced 'high
priced spread' - but even that's relative. The M46 original-owner-from-new
and my (buyer's) broker agreed that you could take this boat to the flea
market and part it out and get most of your money back. That was being
facetious, of course, but it's a *very* unusual boat, particularly for 1980.

Sounds good. It also sounds like you should budget two or three days for survey and at least a full day for sea trial.
Remember you want to test the operation of absolutely everything, with the assumption that anything which isn't
demonstrated to be in perfect working order is nonfunctional. This turns out to be rational, not pessimistic.

Also if the seller has the owners manuals & *accurate* wiring diagrams for all the upgrades & additions, that's key.

Good luck with it!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:32:28 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:



I can't speak to those. This one (well, technically, its sistership) tacked
in 5 knots of wind and was at between 6-7 knots over ground in both
directions at about 8-10 apparent at about 35* off the wind, and has a
fin/skeg underbody with a long forefoot to keep it tracking. The ability of
this type to sail was one of my first concerns, since allayed. Sisterships
report successful way at 30* in higher air and a totally stable freight
train at up to and including 50 knots.

I hope we like it too. Thanks for your interest :{))

I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily
from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft
log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market
upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a
redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your
special height requirements narrowed the field considerably, and I
would like to see your "dream short list" if money and head clearance
weren't an issue, with an emphasis on stowage, passagemaking ability
and pure sailing pleasure. Like, say, you were six foot tall and you
had $250,000 to spend. What would you have considered in a used but
sound cruiser?

Good luck and I hope the deal goes your way. Frankly, the "lawyer"
getting the dead guy's boat sounds dodgy, and I'd check for liens,
off-the-books refinancing deals or whether the thing is collateral in
a high-stakes poker game involving a drug lord.

If you're lucky, it's legit and the lawyer will just bill you for his
hours spent selling it to you. G

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:32:28 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:



I can't speak to those. This one (well, technically, its sistership) tacked
in 5 knots of wind and was at between 6-7 knots over ground in both
directions at about 8-10 apparent at about 35* off the wind, and has a
fin/skeg underbody with a long forefoot to keep it tracking. The ability of
this type to sail was one of my first concerns, since allayed. Sisterships
report successful way at 30* in higher air and a totally stable freight
train at up to and including 50 knots.

I hope we like it too. Thanks for your interest :{))

I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily
from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft
log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market
upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a
redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your
special height requirements narrowed the field considerably, and I
would like to see your "dream short list" if money and head clearance
weren't an issue, with an emphasis on stowage, passagemaking ability
and pure sailing pleasure. Like, say, you were six foot tall and you
had $250,000 to spend. What would you have considered in a used but
sound cruiser?

Good luck and I hope the deal goes your way. Frankly, the "lawyer"
getting the dead guy's boat sounds dodgy, and I'd check for liens,
off-the-books refinancing deals or whether the thing is collateral in
a high-stakes poker game involving a drug lord.

If you're lucky, it's legit and the lawyer will just bill you for his
hours spent selling it to you. G

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46...snip...

Congratulations! I'm so happy for you. And, Hey!, give Lydia a big hug
from me! I can't wait to hear about your progress toward sea trials.

Frank and the girls

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46...snip...

Congratulations! I'm so happy for you. And, Hey!, give Lydia a big hug
from me! I can't wait to hear about your progress toward sea trials.

Frank and the girls

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
...
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley. If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

special height requirements narrowed the field considerably, and I
would like to see your "dream short list" if money and head clearance
weren't an issue, with an emphasis on stowage, passagemaking ability
and pure sailing pleasure. Like, say, you were six foot tall and you
had $250,000 to spend. What would you have considered in a used but
sound cruiser?

I'm always looking to make the bucks go further, so, assuming I'm getting
into a class of boat which can be bought new for that amount, or a sound
used cruiser, I'd still have to consider the fact of ongoing maintenance.
One of the brokers I've worked with is also a new Beneteau dealer, and makes
the point of the various warranties and new vs. worn condition of new vs
'used' boats. He's got a point - but if I could get a great deal more boat
in excellent condition, and have a substantial reserve for maintenance, I'd
probably do that instead of blowing it all on a new one, because, as they
say, "stuff" happens...

Good luck and I hope the deal goes your way. Frankly, the "lawyer"
getting the dead guy's boat sounds dodgy, and I'd check for liens,
off-the-books refinancing deals or whether the thing is collateral in
a high-stakes poker game involving a drug lord.

Heh. We'll do our due diligence on it. I'm not thrilled with the scenario,
and because I'm a couple of layers removed, and it's not been worth making
an issue of it, I don't know how it happened. I might get my broker to chat
up the other on the subject in conversation, just to see if he'll say how it
happened. The fact that it is listed as an estate sale, when, now, it's
clearly not, suggests the transition happened during the time of the
listing.

If you're lucky, it's legit and the lawyer will just bill you for his
hours spent selling it to you. G

Heh. At most lawyers' rates, it could be worse than the counter!

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
...
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley. If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

special height requirements narrowed the field considerably, and I
would like to see your "dream short list" if money and head clearance
weren't an issue, with an emphasis on stowage, passagemaking ability
and pure sailing pleasure. Like, say, you were six foot tall and you
had $250,000 to spend. What would you have considered in a used but
sound cruiser?

I'm always looking to make the bucks go further, so, assuming I'm getting
into a class of boat which can be bought new for that amount, or a sound
used cruiser, I'd still have to consider the fact of ongoing maintenance.
One of the brokers I've worked with is also a new Beneteau dealer, and makes
the point of the various warranties and new vs. worn condition of new vs
'used' boats. He's got a point - but if I could get a great deal more boat
in excellent condition, and have a substantial reserve for maintenance, I'd
probably do that instead of blowing it all on a new one, because, as they
say, "stuff" happens...

Good luck and I hope the deal goes your way. Frankly, the "lawyer"
getting the dead guy's boat sounds dodgy, and I'd check for liens,
off-the-books refinancing deals or whether the thing is collateral in
a high-stakes poker game involving a drug lord.

Heh. We'll do our due diligence on it. I'm not thrilled with the scenario,
and because I'm a couple of layers removed, and it's not been worth making
an issue of it, I don't know how it happened. I might get my broker to chat
up the other on the subject in conversation, just to see if he'll say how it
happened. The fact that it is listed as an estate sale, when, now, it's
clearly not, suggests the transition happened during the time of the
listing.

If you're lucky, it's legit and the lawyer will just bill you for his
hours spent selling it to you. G

Heh. At most lawyers' rates, it could be worse than the counter!

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
.. .
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley.

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

Beside the obvious reason for sinks to lie on the centerline (less
slosh, no favoured tacks for galley work, etc.), I find that I
frequently keep the sink empty to chuck empties and other light stuff
down the companionway to get it out of the cockpit (charts, hats,
rubber chickens and so on). You can get quite accurate with underhand
tosses. Probably not worth the effort, though.

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

OK, I didn't read your post closely enough, I guess.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Good, good. Screws have no place on decks, IMO. Through-bolts every
six inches or better.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

Very good.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))

We're a big race club and host a number of regattas (C&Cs, Mumm 30s,
Stars) each year, and we are gearing up to host more. Also, we have
insanely competitive club racing, and that's how I got a Kevlar main
and No. 1 for $400.00. Recutting them and restoring them from luff
tape to hanks and track slugs will close to double that, but they are
practically new and a Dacron main and No. 1 would run me nearly $5K.

The cordage is a bonus. I have short pieces of very expensive line
holding some of my fenders on G.


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
.. .
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley.

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

Beside the obvious reason for sinks to lie on the centerline (less
slosh, no favoured tacks for galley work, etc.), I find that I
frequently keep the sink empty to chuck empties and other light stuff
down the companionway to get it out of the cockpit (charts, hats,
rubber chickens and so on). You can get quite accurate with underhand
tosses. Probably not worth the effort, though.

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

OK, I didn't read your post closely enough, I guess.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Good, good. Screws have no place on decks, IMO. Through-bolts every
six inches or better.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

Very good.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))

We're a big race club and host a number of regattas (C&Cs, Mumm 30s,
Stars) each year, and we are gearing up to host more. Also, we have
insanely competitive club racing, and that's how I got a Kevlar main
and No. 1 for $400.00. Recutting them and restoring them from luff
tape to hanks and track slugs will close to double that, but they are
practically new and a Dacron main and No. 1 would run me nearly $5K.

The cordage is a bonus. I have short pieces of very expensive line
holding some of my fenders on G.


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

wrote:
I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it.

I dunno, you'd be quite surprised how fast $45K flies out the window when working on projects on a boat this size.
Remember, expenses increase by cubes ;)

Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Morgan went througha couple ups & downs with regard to build quality, although their downs were not as low as some of
the other production builders. It sounds like this one was done right except for the plywood.


I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

wrote:
I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it.

I dunno, you'd be quite surprised how fast $45K flies out the window when working on projects on a boat this size.
Remember, expenses increase by cubes ;)

Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Morgan went througha couple ups & downs with regard to build quality, although their downs were not as low as some of
the other production builders. It sounds like this one was done right except for the plywood.


I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:51:05 -0500, DSK wrote:

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

True, but as heavy as chain and anchors? They frequently end up even
farther forward. Best case is to route the chain back a bit, but this
is relatively rare. My idea is that one side of a V-berth (with the
cabinetry stripped out, would make a good work SPACE, with fasteners
and small tools, etc. neatly stowed low in dedicated lockers, and
maybe with a small drill press and vise bolted to a bench. Big tools,
like hammers, axes, handy-billies, large wrenches, bolt cutters, and
the like, are best stowed in the engine room or in the bilges (boxed
or wrapped to keep dry of course). The bilges are also a good place to
stow ungainly stuff like the old stays you keep as spares to the new
ones you install before going offshore...at least they'll fit, right?

Some people dedicate a quarterberth to this sort of thing. I guess
it's an argument for fuller bilges than a lot of current production
boats, but if you can have two adults and maybe a holding tank in the
V-berth not bringing the boat down by the bow while underway, surely
you can stow 300-400 lbs low in the same space without affecting
performance...that's a lot of tools and spares if they outweight the
engine!



IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

Not to mention a collision mat/fothering sail, I suppose. I would
agree with you had I not saved my own boat thanks to a skinny plug I
had already in place when a ball valve failed at launch. Only took on
a few gallons, and was able to sail safety to a nearby travel lift to
haul and replace. But I agree that you can't be too safe. Of course,
the solution few people use these days are strum boxes and standpipes
that go above the waterline.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.

It's "strongly motivational", I would say. I changed an engine water
intake from gate to ball valve while afloat and that, while
controlled, was alarming enough.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Yep!

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:51:05 -0500, DSK wrote:

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

True, but as heavy as chain and anchors? They frequently end up even
farther forward. Best case is to route the chain back a bit, but this
is relatively rare. My idea is that one side of a V-berth (with the
cabinetry stripped out, would make a good work SPACE, with fasteners
and small tools, etc. neatly stowed low in dedicated lockers, and
maybe with a small drill press and vise bolted to a bench. Big tools,
like hammers, axes, handy-billies, large wrenches, bolt cutters, and
the like, are best stowed in the engine room or in the bilges (boxed
or wrapped to keep dry of course). The bilges are also a good place to
stow ungainly stuff like the old stays you keep as spares to the new
ones you install before going offshore...at least they'll fit, right?

Some people dedicate a quarterberth to this sort of thing. I guess
it's an argument for fuller bilges than a lot of current production
boats, but if you can have two adults and maybe a holding tank in the
V-berth not bringing the boat down by the bow while underway, surely
you can stow 300-400 lbs low in the same space without affecting
performance...that's a lot of tools and spares if they outweight the
engine!



IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

Not to mention a collision mat/fothering sail, I suppose. I would
agree with you had I not saved my own boat thanks to a skinny plug I
had already in place when a ball valve failed at launch. Only took on
a few gallons, and was able to sail safety to a nearby travel lift to
haul and replace. But I agree that you can't be too safe. Of course,
the solution few people use these days are strum boxes and standpipes
that go above the waterline.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.

It's "strongly motivational", I would say. I changed an engine water
intake from gate to ball valve while afloat and that, while
controlled, was alarming enough.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Yep!

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{)) We're
awaiting a response from my broker about several areas of interest, not the
least of which is the actual contract (the initial offer was a verbal, but
regarded as 'real' due to the extensive level of communication before our
return visit), but...

While we wait for that, there's a couple of areas I wanted to respond to.
Of course, it gets long in the telling/asking :{/) !

Choices are discussed...

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

(Discussion of modifications follows)

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

As it happens, both of the candidate boats (High Time and the 'cruising
boat' in STP) have hooks for a strap; the latter has the strap attached!

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...rency=USD&unit
s=Feet&checked_boats=1111916&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of
the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice,
also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas. The first is the real estate they occupy. The second is that the
port one has sagged a bit and impinges on the hatch cover so it won't slide
all the way back (well, technically, forward). Compounding that is their
simple covered-plywood construction, which has led to rot on the port cover,
and standing water in the bottom. In either case, I'd have used lengthwise
hinges instead. No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

In the case of the Nav, while the batteries in the drawer are certainly
slick, they take up valuable storage room and put some significant weight
outside the centerline. Secondly, the space occupied by the folding stool
is way larger than needed for a sit-down, and the folding stool is, to my
view, a very poor choice. If I don't turn it into a standup nav (the
original having been lost to galley extension), I'll certainly, at least,
install a swing-away, side-post-mounted stool or seat. I really like the
size of the 'nav table' - but bemoan the lack of storage outbound. I'd like
to do something like is shown in the M46Mod folder in my gallery, as I would
in the case of the 'cruising boat' in STP, for the outbound storage, and,
probably, do something similar WRT the drawers and storage, even if I elect
to retain that large space under the table for seating. Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

However, that hardtop is like being in the living room. With the enclosure,
or the screens, and the lighting, there's no reason we couldn't make that
our 'patio' for most of our activities. While this boat has two air
conditioners, I'm very curious to see if we'd use them. Our experience to
date in the Caribbean has been that we sleep with a blanket because we're
more than cool with a windscoop, even in the typical anchorage. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

OTOH, I'll start yet another battery thread in a bit to see what we might be
able to expect if we expand our capacity and do serious solar and wind, so,
HooNose?

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods
above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

We'd considered that, on another boat we were very much interested in, but,
for this one, most likely would not do that, in that the V is adequate, but
not really 'large' and to make it into a pullman would not only be at a
considerable angle, it wouldn't leave much room for a workbench. This will
be our guest cabin.

However, back to the point - and, BTW, it's *55* and not just 45k
difference - part of why I'm so drawn to it. We'd asked for several areas
of work, some of which would be done on this boat as well. The shop we'd
most likely use in the STP area, and the one providing the quote, is Salt
Creek Boat Works. They've not given me a materials quote, but their labor
is at $45/hour. In the course of my looking and research, mentioned in
other posts, we found a couple of owners of sisterships who each had
craftsmen they swore by who did their thing at $30/hour. Since HT is on the
east coast, likely we'd use them for the few things we'd want done to her.

Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

* Tool area - build and trim: 70-80 This area is currently nearly empty in
terms of cabinetry, and has a washer/dryer. However, the watermaker, the
SSB tuner and some other stuff would have to be relocated. In the FTL boat,
there's minimal stuff to do, mostly in the topsides area which is all small
parts storage in the example (M46Mod in the gallery) boat.

* Salon seat - build and trim: 35-40 This project would also have to be
done in the FTL boat, as there's currently just the pull-out double.

V-Berth Achor Locker assembly 25-30 They'd put an enclosure on one of the
shelves, making it really broken up and cramped-feeling ,and impeding the
chain locker upper section. This would be removed. They'd screwed the
chain locker shut - this would be resolved. There'd been prior water
damage, which would be repaired in this process.

Aft Head fix or replace as necessary 15-20 Prior water damage to sole and
cabinets - replace as needed

Center salon water damage 20-25 Prior water damage to the corner of the
galley bulkhead and starboard vertical face of storage. This would be done
either with a laminate, with all the teak of the doors and trim retained, or
in teak, again. Can't be repaired due to veneer thickness

Step storage aft cabin 8-10 When we'd looked at an Endeavour 42, one of the
very nice touches was a step up to the berth, with a flip-up lid(s) for the
step face. Underneath it was storage; under the face of the berth were
batteries. The berth as it came is a full-sized athwart (4-4x6-8); to
extend it to queen (5x6-8) is merely an 8" extension inside the 'U' of the
berth. That could be left open underneath, with a step, or that space could
be converted to storage..

Teak and Holly floor repair and finish 25 - Various areas of prior repair
without T/H, or damaged locations, throughout This boat (the 'project boat
in STP, recall) has been sitting at a canal dock for 3 years. While it's
run and dived monthly, there's been no maintenance on the water-exclusion
part of he boat. Whether it leaked earlier, or has developed this while
it's sitting, there's some leaks. Anywhere there's water damage, they'll
track and rectify that leak as feasible...

Counter tops Galley area 20 - They need resurfacing to keep Lydia happy :{))

Salon Table change and laminate 6 - The current table is a monster which has
a butterfly/knee extension to the port side. It's very unwieldy as it is
now, so, we might

Replace with new table (build) 15 This would be a new table, altogether,
though we haven't quite figured out what it would be, exactly. Beneteau has
a really neat application in their newer big-ish boats which could solve the
problem of getting into a U and serving any large number - the table slides
out, and also opens to accept a leaf. So, it can be smaller until needed to
fill to the sides, and can pull out to let people in in any event. Going to
the boat shows, you'll also see teak furniture being demonstrated. In some
of those, the leaf disappears under the table, and that, too, particularly
if it could be mounted on the same sort of slide arrangement, could solve
the space/accessibility challenge of U seating.

In any case, all of the work specified comes to 218-259 hours Even if we
took the largest in each case, and estimated materials at the same as labor
(unlikely, I think, unless I have a totally unrealistic view of what marine
ply and teak veneer is worth), we're looking at a total of 23k to do it all.
I'm expecting it would be well under 20...

Back to High Time, in FTL:

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

I'd agree. The spec in the port settee rebuild included lee cloths. It's
already set up to extend from the base alone via flip-up from the
floor-to-seatbase, supported with 4 fold-out arms. I think I'd try to
figure out a way to relocate the AC from taking up the entirety of the base
of the port settee as it does, now, though!!

Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in
contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

I left the above intact rather than reply inline because of the thoughts
presented tying together. We're getting closer to the realities of our
departure and balance of our lives, and recommendations of "don't buy
*anything* for your boat for the first year unless it's needed for safety
and boat integrity" are ringing in our ears. I *believe* (a survey could
prove me mistaken) the 'cruising boat' (the project boat) could be taken
right away, even though she wouldn't be pretty. Of course, I also expect
the same of High Time, but there *are* some things we know we want done or
to do.

One of the chief things *I* want to do is install as much solar as the top
will hold, and at least one wind (most likely KISS) on the Mizzen, just
because I don't want to run engines more than absolutely necessary. Beyond
that, she's mostly equipped, but there's the port settee, and the
batteries/Nav area we'd like to have attended to, as well as the
bound-to-be-surveyor-recommended mizzen step repair. However, we *could*
easily do without any of that, if push came to shove, assuming everything
worked as currently installed.

Which leads me to...

First, a brief background - I have some surgery which will need doing once
my concert season and my son's wedding are over (early May), and we both
need to sell our houses. There's other stuff which needs cleaning up in our
lives, but suffice it to say we most likely could not leave before the end
of this year's hurricane season, regardless of how quickly we got our
boat...

The current Good Old Boat and Cruising World magazines that I'm reading have
a bit to say about whether one rushes or takes one's time in getting from
one place to another. The CW issue I'm in speaks of the particular routes
one might take to the Caribbean, and how long they each take, including that
one might spend the entire winter season just getting there. In our case,
we'd be going from South FL, with our target being Saint Thomas. If we do
the gentleman's passage, it will take some significant time, even if we
don't do anything but sail, throw out the hook, and do it again the next
day. Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

So, that leaves the likely route of working our way down through the
Bahamas, and then over. Well, there's lots of people who spend many months
each year and don't wear out the Bahamas. Since 1) it's way north of our
expected usual grounds and we're therefore not likely to get back again any
time soon and 2) we have a complete set of charts from DAB to the Turks and
Caicos from our prior circumnav leg which was what started this entire
adventure, I'd rather expect we'd do some pretty extensive sailing around
those areas.

Then we'd likely do some of the same getting further south and east.
Meanwhile, the time marches on. So, perhaps we don't even get to STT until,
say, May or June. Hooray! Just in time for the hurricanes. So, off we go
to the south.

(You knew there'd be a connection, here...) So, without ever having hung on
the hook and doing our work-a-day world as we plan to do (work the high
season, cruise the off-season), here we are in Trinidad.

How about getting our work done there, where it's perhaps that much a day,
instead of per hour?? I keep plumping for that, but I don't think I can
persuade Lydia to forego all the improvements/modifications before we leave.
In particular, she's afraid of what laminate vs teak might look like if we
were to do that to the 'project boat' - which is currently pretty dark below
due to the color of the wood. And, so, she's very prejudiced against it, as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out. OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{)) We're
awaiting a response from my broker about several areas of interest, not the
least of which is the actual contract (the initial offer was a verbal, but
regarded as 'real' due to the extensive level of communication before our
return visit), but...

While we wait for that, there's a couple of areas I wanted to respond to.
Of course, it gets long in the telling/asking :{/) !

Choices are discussed...

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

(Discussion of modifications follows)

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

As it happens, both of the candidate boats (High Time and the 'cruising
boat' in STP) have hooks for a strap; the latter has the strap attached!

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...rency=USD&unit
s=Feet&checked_boats=1111916&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of
the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice,
also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas. The first is the real estate they occupy. The second is that the
port one has sagged a bit and impinges on the hatch cover so it won't slide
all the way back (well, technically, forward). Compounding that is their
simple covered-plywood construction, which has led to rot on the port cover,
and standing water in the bottom. In either case, I'd have used lengthwise
hinges instead. No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

In the case of the Nav, while the batteries in the drawer are certainly
slick, they take up valuable storage room and put some significant weight
outside the centerline. Secondly, the space occupied by the folding stool
is way larger than needed for a sit-down, and the folding stool is, to my
view, a very poor choice. If I don't turn it into a standup nav (the
original having been lost to galley extension), I'll certainly, at least,
install a swing-away, side-post-mounted stool or seat. I really like the
size of the 'nav table' - but bemoan the lack of storage outbound. I'd like
to do something like is shown in the M46Mod folder in my gallery, as I would
in the case of the 'cruising boat' in STP, for the outbound storage, and,
probably, do something similar WRT the drawers and storage, even if I elect
to retain that large space under the table for seating. Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

However, that hardtop is like being in the living room. With the enclosure,
or the screens, and the lighting, there's no reason we couldn't make that
our 'patio' for most of our activities. While this boat has two air
conditioners, I'm very curious to see if we'd use them. Our experience to
date in the Caribbean has been that we sleep with a blanket because we're
more than cool with a windscoop, even in the typical anchorage. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

OTOH, I'll start yet another battery thread in a bit to see what we might be
able to expect if we expand our capacity and do serious solar and wind, so,
HooNose?

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods
above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

We'd considered that, on another boat we were very much interested in, but,
for this one, most likely would not do that, in that the V is adequate, but
not really 'large' and to make it into a pullman would not only be at a
considerable angle, it wouldn't leave much room for a workbench. This will
be our guest cabin.

However, back to the point - and, BTW, it's *55* and not just 45k
difference - part of why I'm so drawn to it. We'd asked for several areas
of work, some of which would be done on this boat as well. The shop we'd
most likely use in the STP area, and the one providing the quote, is Salt
Creek Boat Works. They've not given me a materials quote, but their labor
is at $45/hour. In the course of my looking and research, mentioned in
other posts, we found a couple of owners of sisterships who each had
craftsmen they swore by who did their thing at $30/hour. Since HT is on the
east coast, likely we'd use them for the few things we'd want done to her.

Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

* Tool area - build and trim: 70-80 This area is currently nearly empty in
terms of cabinetry, and has a washer/dryer. However, the watermaker, the
SSB tuner and some other stuff would have to be relocated. In the FTL boat,
there's minimal stuff to do, mostly in the topsides area which is all small
parts storage in the example (M46Mod in the gallery) boat.

* Salon seat - build and trim: 35-40 This project would also have to be
done in the FTL boat, as there's currently just the pull-out double.

V-Berth Achor Locker assembly 25-30 They'd put an enclosure on one of the
shelves, making it really broken up and cramped-feeling ,and impeding the
chain locker upper section. This would be removed. They'd screwed the
chain locker shut - this would be resolved. There'd been prior water
damage, which would be repaired in this process.

Aft Head fix or replace as necessary 15-20 Prior water damage to sole and
cabinets - replace as needed

Center salon water damage 20-25 Prior water damage to the corner of the
galley bulkhead and starboard vertical face of storage. This would be done
either with a laminate, with all the teak of the doors and trim retained, or
in teak, again. Can't be repaired due to veneer thickness

Step storage aft cabin 8-10 When we'd looked at an Endeavour 42, one of the
very nice touches was a step up to the berth, with a flip-up lid(s) for the
step face. Underneath it was storage; under the face of the berth were
batteries. The berth as it came is a full-sized athwart (4-4x6-8); to
extend it to queen (5x6-8) is merely an 8" extension inside the 'U' of the
berth. That could be left open underneath, with a step, or that space could
be converted to storage..

Teak and Holly floor repair and finish 25 - Various areas of prior repair
without T/H, or damaged locations, throughout This boat (the 'project boat
in STP, recall) has been sitting at a canal dock for 3 years. While it's
run and dived monthly, there's been no maintenance on the water-exclusion
part of he boat. Whether it leaked earlier, or has developed this while
it's sitting, there's some leaks. Anywhere there's water damage, they'll
track and rectify that leak as feasible...

Counter tops Galley area 20 - They need resurfacing to keep Lydia happy :{))

Salon Table change and laminate 6 - The current table is a monster which has
a butterfly/knee extension to the port side. It's very unwieldy as it is
now, so, we might

Replace with new table (build) 15 This would be a new table, altogether,
though we haven't quite figured out what it would be, exactly. Beneteau has
a really neat application in their newer big-ish boats which could solve the
problem of getting into a U and serving any large number - the table slides
out, and also opens to accept a leaf. So, it can be smaller until needed to
fill to the sides, and can pull out to let people in in any event. Going to
the boat shows, you'll also see teak furniture being demonstrated. In some
of those, the leaf disappears under the table, and that, too, particularly
if it could be mounted on the same sort of slide arrangement, could solve
the space/accessibility challenge of U seating.

In any case, all of the work specified comes to 218-259 hours Even if we
took the largest in each case, and estimated materials at the same as labor
(unlikely, I think, unless I have a totally unrealistic view of what marine
ply and teak veneer is worth), we're looking at a total of 23k to do it all.
I'm expecting it would be well under 20...

Back to High Time, in FTL:

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

I'd agree. The spec in the port settee rebuild included lee cloths. It's
already set up to extend from the base alone via flip-up from the
floor-to-seatbase, supported with 4 fold-out arms. I think I'd try to
figure out a way to relocate the AC from taking up the entirety of the base
of the port settee as it does, now, though!!

Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in
contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

I left the above intact rather than reply inline because of the thoughts
presented tying together. We're getting closer to the realities of our
departure and balance of our lives, and recommendations of "don't buy
*anything* for your boat for the first year unless it's needed for safety
and boat integrity" are ringing in our ears. I *believe* (a survey could
prove me mistaken) the 'cruising boat' (the project boat) could be taken
right away, even though she wouldn't be pretty. Of course, I also expect
the same of High Time, but there *are* some things we know we want done or
to do.

One of the chief things *I* want to do is install as much solar as the top
will hold, and at least one wind (most likely KISS) on the Mizzen, just
because I don't want to run engines more than absolutely necessary. Beyond
that, she's mostly equipped, but there's the port settee, and the
batteries/Nav area we'd like to have attended to, as well as the
bound-to-be-surveyor-recommended mizzen step repair. However, we *could*
easily do without any of that, if push came to shove, assuming everything
worked as currently installed.

Which leads me to...

First, a brief background - I have some surgery which will need doing once
my concert season and my son's wedding are over (early May), and we both
need to sell our houses. There's other stuff which needs cleaning up in our
lives, but suffice it to say we most likely could not leave before the end
of this year's hurricane season, regardless of how quickly we got our
boat...

The current Good Old Boat and Cruising World magazines that I'm reading have
a bit to say about whether one rushes or takes one's time in getting from
one place to another. The CW issue I'm in speaks of the particular routes
one might take to the Caribbean, and how long they each take, including that
one might spend the entire winter season just getting there. In our case,
we'd be going from South FL, with our target being Saint Thomas. If we do
the gentleman's passage, it will take some significant time, even if we
don't do anything but sail, throw out the hook, and do it again the next
day. Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

So, that leaves the likely route of working our way down through the
Bahamas, and then over. Well, there's lots of people who spend many months
each year and don't wear out the Bahamas. Since 1) it's way north of our
expected usual grounds and we're therefore not likely to get back again any
time soon and 2) we have a complete set of charts from DAB to the Turks and
Caicos from our prior circumnav leg which was what started this entire
adventure, I'd rather expect we'd do some pretty extensive sailing around
those areas.

Then we'd likely do some of the same getting further south and east.
Meanwhile, the time marches on. So, perhaps we don't even get to STT until,
say, May or June. Hooray! Just in time for the hurricanes. So, off we go
to the south.

(You knew there'd be a connection, here...) So, without ever having hung on
the hook and doing our work-a-day world as we plan to do (work the high
season, cruise the off-season), here we are in Trinidad.

How about getting our work done there, where it's perhaps that much a day,
instead of per hour?? I keep plumping for that, but I don't think I can
persuade Lydia to forego all the improvements/modifications before we leave.
In particular, she's afraid of what laminate vs teak might look like if we
were to do that to the 'project boat' - which is currently pretty dark below
due to the color of the wood. And, so, she's very prejudiced against it, as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out. OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Curiouser and curiouser...

The world has kept turning since this original post a week ago, and there
have been some developments.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message hlink.net...
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration,
as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.
(clip)
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat, so, I asked
for some more information and followup from our broker. That didn't happen
in the week or so since I sent it off, so...

Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" -
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...60&slim=quick& -
which started this process (put us back into M46s) called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway. In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

We gave a 24 hour window, since the communication between the broker and
seller seemed to be constant and therefore would not be a problem to get an
answer. Sure enough, it came back quickly, with about a 4% reduction. It
was about as I'd have expected (not a serious counter), so I don't expect
we'll follow up on it.

However, my broker recommended countering at a level we know we can buy High
Time for, and I mentioned that, along with that I hadn't responded to *that*
counter, either. Panic set it :{)) (He hadn't known we had offered on
another boat.) However it happened, whoever was called, he and his listing
broker now think that *we* seatrialed High Time, that "nothing worked" and
that we rejected the boat...

So, I went back to my broker on High Time, telling him the story. Some more
is coming to light. First, he said, "I just spoke to the listing broker for
High Time. He said High Time had been sea trialed about two months ago, and
due to a broken belt the engine overheated and he didn't go further with
survey." This from the broker who said that there had only been "one offer,
not serious" on this boat...

He went on to say that the broker, "did tell me that the person who sea
trialed High Time has been looking for a boat for about three years, and he
won't have anything to do with him." Ya gotta wonder just how serious a
buyer one has to be (or how serious an offer has to be) in order to get an
offer accepted, pehaps incur travel expenses (don't have a clue about
whether the guy's local) engage a surveyor, and go to sea trial...

Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

It gets better. Followers of this saga know that an attorney owns the boat,
and there's thought to be some connection to an estate, as the boat was
listed that way, initially. The web site and the YachtWorld listing sez, "
'High Time' is an estate sale. She is a very special Morgan 46' with custom
features and equipment that justify the asking price. The owner bought this
boat for its strength and spaciousness and then set about making it
everything he wanted in his ideal boat." That's an obvious implication that
the owner died either after, or during, his changes, and the estate is
selling it.

So, my broker talks to him again, and gets this: "Could have been from
before the guy died. According to listing broker High Time is definitely not
an estate sale."

Hm. You'd think the listing broker might know a bit about his own listing,
wouldn't you??

So, here we are, with two open counters, neither of which pleases us much,
but the most achievable one is most likely High Time. Except that the
engine room didn't look *AT ALL* the same standard as the rest of the boat,
and with a relatively high-hours engine, plus the most recent experience,
we're a bit gunshy on that point. In addition, just as we can reject a boat
on the survey results and offer a lower price, the seller can reject our
post-survey offer and stick fast to his number. So, in addition to the
possibility that it will take rather more than we're able to pay comfortably
just to get started, we already know about some things which will require
attention, even before the survey, as well as some things we know we'd like
to do (more significant bux). *I* think we have to be prepared to take the
boat at the price agreed upon, given the history so far, and so we're
looking at some significant potential increase in an already uncomfortable
price.

So, we're thinking... We'll talk with our broker again tomorrow and see
what might be appropriate. I still don't like that the listing and the
reality, at least as presented, don't match. Unlike the 'cruising' or
'project' boat on which we'd gotten the repair/upgrade estimates, and which
I was able to find in my sold listings, so I have some history on it,
getting the facts on this boat has resolutely been stymied so far...

Of course, we still have the other backups - the several in the Virgins
which our broker over there's checking out, and the one which needs a lot of
work on which we have estimates but which Lydia really would prefer not even
to discuss - and more will come on the market as time goes by.

We still think we'll buy this boat - but it sure is more difficult than just
a bit of money negotiation!

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Curiouser and curiouser...

The world has kept turning since this original post a week ago, and there
have been some developments.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message hlink.net...
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration,
as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.
(clip)
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat, so, I asked
for some more information and followup from our broker. That didn't happen
in the week or so since I sent it off, so...

Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" -
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...60&slim=quick& -
which started this process (put us back into M46s) called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway. In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

We gave a 24 hour window, since the communication between the broker and
seller seemed to be constant and therefore would not be a problem to get an
answer. Sure enough, it came back quickly, with about a 4% reduction. It
was about as I'd have expected (not a serious counter), so I don't expect
we'll follow up on it.

However, my broker recommended countering at a level we know we can buy High
Time for, and I mentioned that, along with that I hadn't responded to *that*
counter, either. Panic set it :{)) (He hadn't known we had offered on
another boat.) However it happened, whoever was called, he and his listing
broker now think that *we* seatrialed High Time, that "nothing worked" and
that we rejected the boat...

So, I went back to my broker on High Time, telling him the story. Some more
is coming to light. First, he said, "I just spoke to the listing broker for
High Time. He said High Time had been sea trialed about two months ago, and
due to a broken belt the engine overheated and he didn't go further with
survey." This from the broker who said that there had only been "one offer,
not serious" on this boat...

He went on to say that the broker, "did tell me that the person who sea
trialed High Time has been looking for a boat for about three years, and he
won't have anything to do with him." Ya gotta wonder just how serious a
buyer one has to be (or how serious an offer has to be) in order to get an
offer accepted, pehaps incur travel expenses (don't have a clue about
whether the guy's local) engage a surveyor, and go to sea trial...

Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

It gets better. Followers of this saga know that an attorney owns the boat,
and there's thought to be some connection to an estate, as the boat was
listed that way, initially. The web site and the YachtWorld listing sez, "
'High Time' is an estate sale. She is a very special Morgan 46' with custom
features and equipment that justify the asking price. The owner bought this
boat for its strength and spaciousness and then set about making it
everything he wanted in his ideal boat." That's an obvious implication that
the owner died either after, or during, his changes, and the estate is
selling it.

So, my broker talks to him again, and gets this: "Could have been from
before the guy died. According to listing broker High Time is definitely not
an estate sale."

Hm. You'd think the listing broker might know a bit about his own listing,
wouldn't you??

So, here we are, with two open counters, neither of which pleases us much,
but the most achievable one is most likely High Time. Except that the
engine room didn't look *AT ALL* the same standard as the rest of the boat,
and with a relatively high-hours engine, plus the most recent experience,
we're a bit gunshy on that point. In addition, just as we can reject a boat
on the survey results and offer a lower price, the seller can reject our
post-survey offer and stick fast to his number. So, in addition to the
possibility that it will take rather more than we're able to pay comfortably
just to get started, we already know about some things which will require
attention, even before the survey, as well as some things we know we'd like
to do (more significant bux). *I* think we have to be prepared to take the
boat at the price agreed upon, given the history so far, and so we're
looking at some significant potential increase in an already uncomfortable
price.

So, we're thinking... We'll talk with our broker again tomorrow and see
what might be appropriate. I still don't like that the listing and the
reality, at least as presented, don't match. Unlike the 'cruising' or
'project' boat on which we'd gotten the repair/upgrade estimates, and which
I was able to find in my sold listings, so I have some history on it,
getting the facts on this boat has resolutely been stymied so far...

Of course, we still have the other backups - the several in the Virgins
which our broker over there's checking out, and the one which needs a lot of
work on which we have estimates but which Lydia really would prefer not even
to discuss - and more will come on the market as time goes by.

We still think we'll buy this boat - but it sure is more difficult than just
a bit of money negotiation!

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

You might want to check out Ebay...there is a 1981 morgan 46 that is
$75,000.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=2452681 009

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

You might want to check out Ebay...there is a 1981 morgan 46 that is
$75,000.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=2452681 009

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser...

Skip, by constantly staying in touch with these brokers, you are sending the wrong message. Go look at other boats. Go
play golf. GO do anything except pester these guys to sell you one of these boats. The message you are sending is
(loosely translated) "I am really on the hook and *will* buy this boat at your price if you play me right." You need to
walk away, at least for a little while. The odds are very low that either of these boats is going to sell in the next two
weeks.




They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat...

Not trying to hammer at anything here, but you have only two choices... buy or not. If they want to entice you to buy by
lowering the price, you'll have to wait for them to come to that conclusion.




Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" ..... called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway.

heh. That was being polite. In that same situation, I'd have offered half.

In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

Which is what I mean by saying that you seem to be on the hook here. If you want to definitely buy one of these two boats
in the near future, you are going to pay a premium for that. If you want to hang on to more of your money, you'll just
have to play a waiting game.

.....
Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

Many brokers do wierd stuff. That's why they are in the boat business, where a certain amount of eccentricity is
acceptable, instead of in some more straightlaced business. OTOH that doesn't mean you have to hand them your money....

Good luck with the continuing story.

DSK

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser...

Skip, by constantly staying in touch with these brokers, you are sending the wrong message. Go look at other boats. Go
play golf. GO do anything except pester these guys to sell you one of these boats. The message you are sending is
(loosely translated) "I am really on the hook and *will* buy this boat at your price if you play me right." You need to
walk away, at least for a little while. The odds are very low that either of these boats is going to sell in the next two
weeks.




They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat...

Not trying to hammer at anything here, but you have only two choices... buy or not. If they want to entice you to buy by
lowering the price, you'll have to wait for them to come to that conclusion.




Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" ..... called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway.

heh. That was being polite. In that same situation, I'd have offered half.

In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

Which is what I mean by saying that you seem to be on the hook here. If you want to definitely buy one of these two boats
in the near future, you are going to pay a premium for that. If you want to hang on to more of your money, you'll just
have to play a waiting game.

.....
Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

Many brokers do wierd stuff. That's why they are in the boat business, where a certain amount of eccentricity is
acceptable, instead of in some more straightlaced business. OTOH that doesn't mean you have to hand them your money....

Good luck with the continuing story.

DSK

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 04:45:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{

In the interests of limiting masochism, I've snipped liberally.


Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas.

I think I liked the IDEA of deck boxes, not knowing anything about
these particular ones...G

No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

Exactly. See how they work out. I think one forward of the mast, if
possible, would be nice, but that's often where the liferaft goes.

Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

I agree. Centerline, low and near the CG is the way to go. Inboard on
L-shaped settees are possibilities.

.. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

Too much complication for me. My logic would dictate that if I get too
hot, I would sail to somewhere cooler...anyway, I love simple, robust
systems that are accessible and quiet. Quiet is a big deal with me, as
is renewable energy, etc. A/C is nice, but that's why God invented the
mint julep....


Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

Cutters are great for the sail-handling options and particularly the
reaching (genoa staysail) and reduction (flattened heavy staysail)
options. Is the staysail loose or club-footed and is it hank on or
furling?

major info snip

Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I
want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

I think that would be stressful and counter to the spirit of the
voyage. Shake-down cruises (excluding safety/boat and crew integrity
factors) should be low stress where possible. Enjoy and learn from the
boat and the weather, and just take it easy until outside forces
require a harder sail. Getting one's sea legs is gradual.

For the same reasons, I would make a suggestion: Make Season One
(winter) very light on the cargo/supplies. Pretend you're camping and
don't load down the boat with the stuff (save spares, etc.) you think
you'll need for extended cruising. Essentially, you aren't going
extended cruising right away...you are puttering to the BVI and
lurking for the Christmas winds, right? If you are "light loaded", it
will be much easier to determine what's REALLY essential in a clean,
open boat with plenty of stowage. Throw in a credit card, half a
fridge full of food, two duffels of clothes and a toothbrush...oh,
wait...and BEER...and just go sailing. In the spring you can go back
to the States and cherry-pick from the storage locker you rented
before you left. I would be surprised if half the stuff you thought
you'd bring ends up on the boat...particularly if you have a
washer/dryer aboard.

as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out.

That will never happen. If you wait for the boat to be perfect, as
opposed to perfectly sound for extended cruising, you'll die old and
penniless G. There's nothing wrong with improving one's boat and
making all Bristol, but quite frankly, on extended cruising, you and
she are going to be the primary worker bees while passagemaking.

That's why a small work area for working in wood is very helpful.
Complex joinery is best left to the experts, but if you want to build
boxes, holders, and replace strips or planking and stain to match (or
cut and apply veneer, if you prefer), that's easily learned, or easily
finished profession by tradespeople.

If it's that dark below, paint the headliner, maybe. Upgrade the
lighting. Do the stuff necessary that gets you underway. If it's still
a big deal after six months, haul and redo in a cheap part of the
world where they have the skills. Trinidad's one such place, so is
Venezuela, as I've heard., although parts of there are getting a bad
reputation.

OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Well, it's cheaper where they grow it, that's for sure.

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

Excellent. Here's some titles I've found helpful:

http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog...ng/sellup.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...255882-0336131

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

You've probably read them all, but they all stress the importance of
avoiding "perfection" in favour of "getting underway" G.

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 04:45:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{

In the interests of limiting masochism, I've snipped liberally.


Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas.

I think I liked the IDEA of deck boxes, not knowing anything about
these particular ones...G

No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

Exactly. See how they work out. I think one forward of the mast, if
possible, would be nice, but that's often where the liferaft goes.

Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

I agree. Centerline, low and near the CG is the way to go. Inboard on
L-shaped settees are possibilities.

.. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

Too much complication for me. My logic would dictate that if I get too
hot, I would sail to somewhere cooler...anyway, I love simple, robust
systems that are accessible and quiet. Quiet is a big deal with me, as
is renewable energy, etc. A/C is nice, but that's why God invented the
mint julep....


Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

Cutters are great for the sail-handling options and particularly the
reaching (genoa staysail) and reduction (flattened heavy staysail)
options. Is the staysail loose or club-footed and is it hank on or
furling?

major info snip

Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I
want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

I think that would be stressful and counter to the spirit of the
voyage. Shake-down cruises (excluding safety/boat and crew integrity
factors) should be low stress where possible. Enjoy and learn from the
boat and the weather, and just take it easy until outside forces
require a harder sail. Getting one's sea legs is gradual.

For the same reasons, I would make a suggestion: Make Season One
(winter) very light on the cargo/supplies. Pretend you're camping and
don't load down the boat with the stuff (save spares, etc.) you think
you'll need for extended cruising. Essentially, you aren't going
extended cruising right away...you are puttering to the BVI and
lurking for the Christmas winds, right? If you are "light loaded", it
will be much easier to determine what's REALLY essential in a clean,
open boat with plenty of stowage. Throw in a credit card, half a
fridge full of food, two duffels of clothes and a toothbrush...oh,
wait...and BEER...and just go sailing. In the spring you can go back
to the States and cherry-pick from the storage locker you rented
before you left. I would be surprised if half the stuff you thought
you'd bring ends up on the boat...particularly if you have a
washer/dryer aboard.

as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out.

That will never happen. If you wait for the boat to be perfect, as
opposed to perfectly sound for extended cruising, you'll die old and
penniless G. There's nothing wrong with improving one's boat and
making all Bristol, but quite frankly, on extended cruising, you and
she are going to be the primary worker bees while passagemaking.

That's why a small work area for working in wood is very helpful.
Complex joinery is best left to the experts, but if you want to build
boxes, holders, and replace strips or planking and stain to match (or
cut and apply veneer, if you prefer), that's easily learned, or easily
finished profession by tradespeople.

If it's that dark below, paint the headliner, maybe. Upgrade the
lighting. Do the stuff necessary that gets you underway. If it's still
a big deal after six months, haul and redo in a cheap part of the
world where they have the skills. Trinidad's one such place, so is
Venezuela, as I've heard., although parts of there are getting a bad
reputation.

OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Well, it's cheaper where they grow it, that's for sure.

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

Excellent. Here's some titles I've found helpful:

http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog...ng/sellup.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...255882-0336131

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

You've probably read them all, but they all stress the importance of
avoiding "perfection" in favour of "getting underway" G.

R.

4th FL trip report, shorter, this time!
 

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:58:01 -0500, DSK wrote:

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser...

Skip, by constantly staying in touch with these brokers, you are sending the wrong message. Go look at other boats. Go
play golf. GO do anything except pester these guys to sell you one of these boats. The message you are sending is
(loosely translated) "I am really on the hook and *will* buy this boat at your price if you play me right." You need to
walk away, at least for a little while. The odds are very low that either of these boats is going to sell in the next two
weeks.

This is superb advice. Sometimes being the boss means letting go of
the tiller...

.. If you want to hang on to more of your money, you'll just
have to play a waiting game.

You *want* to buy an unwrecked Morgan 46...fair and good...It doesn't
have to be either of these...particularly that dodgy lawyer-involved
one. The brokers sound a bit dim, actually.

R.