Well, I've been in correspondence with a variety of folks as we go along
with this surreal trip, and I have to ask myself for a reality check.
Here's what I said to one correspondent from Down Under:

Hi, XXX, and thanks for the note.

Would you mind if I shared (anonymously) this with the group?

To your comments:

I like your perseverance.

Heh. It's the only way we're going to get on a boat, I think

And I appreciate the saga.

:{)) I wonder how many are actually reading it? I used to get about one
potshot each time I posted, but when I came back with what was happening,
and specifically asked the poster for *their* situation (to compare to mine
which they were denigrating) I never got a response. I suspect the current
state has convinced the skeptics...

But I'm wondering if I can read it from Down Under, have you considered
the impact on YOUR situation if the vendors or the agents see your posts.

Good point - and I'd considered that. It's one of the reasons there's
never been any dollar amount mentioned in the offers discussions. However,
while I've learned that my communication skills leave a lot to be desired in
'everyman' "getting it" and so it may be that I'm communicating something
else, I certainly hope that what one would get as a seller is that we're
going to buy a Morgan 46, and the rig, year and other individualities aren't
at issue.

So, if I were a M46 owner, I'd want to be in communication with the poster
(me, of course). I don't anticipate any of the actual owners would be
reading the group, as they're all out of sailing. However, if I were one of
the actual sellers, I'd be pretty motivated to try to get the deal to work,
as it's plain I'm not the only one being considered. I've always been
pretty transparent in doing 'deals' - I've bought a lot of investment
single-family homes for rental this way - I've found that the only way they
work is if it works for both parties. Ideally, I'd be sitting down with the
owner, and we'd hash it out. There's so much more that can be done, just
sitting and talking, that can't possibly happen with "shuttle diplomacy."
We might not do business, but they'd know where we're comng from, and I'd
know what their abilities would be, and if it didn't work, there'd be no
animosity at the end. The deal might look unusual at the end, but we'd both
be happy. Doing stuff through two layers of broker, especially when *my*
broker (unlike real estate) doesn't get to present the deal, makes it very
much more difficult. I would also hope it would convey that we are
immediate buyers, but don't *have* to be - though, if we find the right boat
with the right circumstances, it's bought.

As a broker, ditto - if I knew of a boat I thought would work, I'd make an
effort to get to the owner and try to list it. In the case of the listing
broker in any of these cases, I'd hope that it conveyed that we were
serious, and making an active effort to buy the boat - but that not only
were we active, if I (the listing broker) couldn't get the deal done,
someone else *would* - along with the commission, of course. I want to make
it clear, though, that I have no interest in playing them off against each
other. I didn't inform my broker of the other offer until it had countered
and been rejected. That way it was a data point, rather than attempting to
use as a lever.

Down here I suspect that an agent would be obliged to communicate a
formal ( i.e written) offer to a vendor. Certainly the case in realty
sales.

Well, I'd think so, in this case, also, as Florida is either the only or
one of very few states which require their brokers to be licensed and
bonded. However, 'present' and 'sell' are two different things, and the
broker in this case has already demonstrated his irritation level with the
boat (his complaint about having to clean it, and that it's not sold yet,
made to my broker) as well as his, let's just say, lack of attention to
detail (if not misrepresentation). So, at this point, I have a high level
of anxiety about getting my deal represented as I'd want.

However, reality check time...

Lydia and I were discussing the realities of this search, research, and
followup and, of necessity, it's had to be mostly me. It's been observed
that I'm a pain in the ass to deal with :{))

First, I'm a know-it-all, or at least, sometimes, that's how I come
across. Then there's the problem that, in some cases, I really am. That's
because - just by my nature - I want to know everything I can about
something which interests me, and I can assure you that spending 6 figures
has my attention, so I've gotten pretty knowledgeable about any specific
boat type in which we've been interested. Since the brokers only deal with,
perhaps, one or two of these (whatever they might be) in a year, it's
entirely possible that I know a lot more about them than they do.

Second, I'm not your typical customer. I won't be 'sold' and I don't do
spur-of-the-moment, and "How much are the payments?" is not in my
vocabulary. I've also got this spreadsheet of boats I want to see,
organized by geography instead of just wandering in off the street saying
I'm interested in buying a boat... So, probably, they don't quite know how
to deal with me. On the other hand, in this last round (from Annapolis to
St. Petersburg), the brokers have commented that I'm great to work with,
because I'm on and off a boat in a minute - or even two if it's close - if
it's not of interest in the end. Having actually been aboard nearly two
hundred boats in the last 12 months makes that possible, but it also
contributes to the first point, above.

Third, I'm demanding. I don't do stuff off-the-cuff. I'm very organized,
and, as a result, if there's stuff missing or info wanted or whatever, I can
come up with a list of things I expect to have answers about before I'll go
further. I don't know if that's intimidating, annoying, or just adding to
the level of the first point. However (and I accept that I may not convey
that adequately), when those items are met, things happen. Of course,
contributing to this part is that, with my engineering nature (I'm not, but
I think like one - and like a lawyer and accountant, too, just to keep
things interesting), I detest ambiguities and uncertainties. Getting those
resolved is important, and failure to do so results in additional requests
for those resolutions. That's probably seen as demanding.

However, not only will this be an 'all your eggs in one basket' deal, it's
going to be our home for the foreseeable future. We don't have the
resources to make a mistake, or to do it over should this prove to be the
wrong one. It makes for a high level of what the business world calls "due
diligence" - which is to do the digging and research necessary to uncover
all the warts, pimples and prior surgeries, metaphorically speaking, before
a purchase.

So, that's my reality check. Perhaps I'm not the one to deal with in this
negotiation. OTOH, if I'd have followed Lydia's urgent requests, there are
4 boats which would have been bought but which were obviously not right on
direct inspection. However, since we both agree on the type, and have some
example boats which can suit us, and, in particular, High Time, we're now
thinking that Lydia will take over, in the hopes that presenting softer
edges might get further - but she'll have the same bullet points, plus some
of her own that I've not considered critical :{))

Best of luck
XXXXX

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Skip wrote:

I wonder how many are actually reading it?


Hi Skip,
You can bet I'm reading them, just not contributing when I don't have
much to say that's not al;ready been said.

However, now that I've started typing again:

First, let me say that I'm delighted that you're zeroing in on a
target. I learned long ago that just because your methodology doesn't
mirror mine, ot doesn't make it any less valid. We chose to approach
the goal in small steps (MacGregor 25, Catalina 30, and finally the
Tayana 37), letting our abilities and adventures grow until we were
pushing the limits of the boat, then moving on to a more capable one,
using what we had learned to date to select it. So far, I've seen
nothing to make me believe that there's a better way for us, but that
doesn't mean it's the best way for everybody. So far, we're on target
for an open ended departure in the fall of '06 (though if the economy
continues to remain in the tank, it may be '07). A date originally
picked by when our youngest child will be in her 3rd year of college (or
out on her own).

On the boat choices: I'm not certain of the model and may be of by a
foot one way or the other, but a member of the yacht club I used to
belong to and his wife used live aboard a Morgan 45 (until he put a 1'
diameter hole below the water line while under way, but that's another
story). He liked it, but complained that there wasn't enough
convienient storage for living aboard. They were not cruising, just
living aboard in a marina in Richmond (SF Bay). I gues what I'm trying
to say, is that before you ink a deal, make sure you examine it from
that perspective. I know that after doing extensive coastal cruising
trips in our Catalina 30 (the longest was 2 months), one of the biggest
selling points of out current boat was tha amount of available storage.

Good luck!

- Dan

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Skip wrote:

I wonder how many are actually reading it?


Hi Skip,
You can bet I'm reading them, just not contributing when I don't have
much to say that's not al;ready been said.

However, now that I've started typing again:

First, let me say that I'm delighted that you're zeroing in on a
target. I learned long ago that just because your methodology doesn't
mirror mine, ot doesn't make it any less valid. We chose to approach
the goal in small steps (MacGregor 25, Catalina 30, and finally the
Tayana 37), letting our abilities and adventures grow until we were
pushing the limits of the boat, then moving on to a more capable one,
using what we had learned to date to select it. So far, I've seen
nothing to make me believe that there's a better way for us, but that
doesn't mean it's the best way for everybody. So far, we're on target
for an open ended departure in the fall of '06 (though if the economy
continues to remain in the tank, it may be '07). A date originally
picked by when our youngest child will be in her 3rd year of college (or
out on her own).

On the boat choices: I'm not certain of the model and may be of by a
foot one way or the other, but a member of the yacht club I used to
belong to and his wife used live aboard a Morgan 45 (until he put a 1'
diameter hole below the water line while under way, but that's another
story). He liked it, but complained that there wasn't enough
convienient storage for living aboard. They were not cruising, just
living aboard in a marina in Richmond (SF Bay). I gues what I'm trying
to say, is that before you ink a deal, make sure you examine it from
that perspective. I know that after doing extensive coastal cruising
trips in our Catalina 30 (the longest was 2 months), one of the biggest
selling points of out current boat was tha amount of available storage.

Good luck!

- Dan

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Sounds very normal, all around, Skip. Seems like you're doing a good
job. You can probably try to consciously be gentle, polite, and
considerate to those others involved without risking losing sight of
your own issues, but... After all is said and done, you do have a good
grasp of the facts and you have a job to do. It just gets a little hard
to step back from the trees to grok the forest - occupational hazzard in
your position.

My free advice g:

Spend more time now trying to find a surveyor experienced with Morgens
that you really respect - ie. that you would listen to. g If you
haven't already decided on one.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I believe a good surveyor is worth flying in
from out of town (if need be) at that critical moment. An experienced
surveyor has seen a lot more boats than you. With nothing to block his
cold hard views he can see things below your radar, or which would get
lost in the fatique and frenzy at the end. Especially after months of
hustle, a person can have trouble keeping his perspective and just plain
standing up to the gaff. A respected 3rd opinion can really help hang in
at the end - or walk away, with great regret, but confident of your
decision.


Best luck. Rufus

Sounds very normal, all around, Skip. Seems like you're doing a good
job. You can probably try to consciously be gentle, polite, and
considerate to those others involved without risking losing sight of
your own issues, but... After all is said and done, you do have a good
grasp of the facts and you have a job to do. It just gets a little hard
to step back from the trees to grok the forest - occupational hazzard in
your position.

My free advice g:

Spend more time now trying to find a surveyor experienced with Morgens
that you really respect - ie. that you would listen to. g If you
haven't already decided on one.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I believe a good surveyor is worth flying in
from out of town (if need be) at that critical moment. An experienced
surveyor has seen a lot more boats than you. With nothing to block his
cold hard views he can see things below your radar, or which would get
lost in the fatique and frenzy at the end. Especially after months of
hustle, a person can have trouble keeping his perspective and just plain
standing up to the gaff. A respected 3rd opinion can really help hang in
at the end - or walk away, with great regret, but confident of your
decision.


Best luck. Rufus

"Skip Gundlach"
wrote in
message
ink.net...

Well, I've been in correspondence with a variety of folks
as we go along

:{)) I wonder how many are actually reading it?

whole load of snips

Well, me for one, Skip. Because I'm selling my boat, and
you've given me a great insight into one type of (patient &
thorough) buyer. So I've tailored my approach to selling . .

You set me on a warts and all approach after the initial
'here's my beautiful boat' bait (see my signature, below.
Which had a mis-spelling for a week or two!). Those who
respond get my work list for commissioning next year,
divided up into four sections: 'routine', 'must do', 'nice
to have & cosmetic' and 'watchlist for future years',
together with a condition report rather better than many
surveys I've seen.

I selected my two brokers (one UK and one US) on the basis
that if the broker insisted on a warts and all approach, he
was also going to be far more likely not to waste everyone's
time. Very few met that criterion. I think that's been your
experience too!

It's saved me un-necessary journeys for viewing. Cowboys and
gawpers who just want to peer around have been put off. But
it's caught the imagination of about three really keen guys.
Big tour starts at the end of Feb when they'll all be coming
round to have a look. Does all this make me as picky a
seller as you are a buyer? Interesting thought.

There have been the oddballs too. Emails which offer to buy
the boat tomorrow with a certified check if I send them a
few £££ for postage, for delivery, for whatever. They soon
disappear.
--
JimB
Yacht Rapaz, sadly for sale:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
jim(dot)baerselman(at)ntlworld(dot)com

"Skip Gundlach"
wrote in
message
ink.net...

Well, I've been in correspondence with a variety of folks
as we go along

:{)) I wonder how many are actually reading it?

whole load of snips

Well, me for one, Skip. Because I'm selling my boat, and
you've given me a great insight into one type of (patient &
thorough) buyer. So I've tailored my approach to selling . .

You set me on a warts and all approach after the initial
'here's my beautiful boat' bait (see my signature, below.
Which had a mis-spelling for a week or two!). Those who
respond get my work list for commissioning next year,
divided up into four sections: 'routine', 'must do', 'nice
to have & cosmetic' and 'watchlist for future years',
together with a condition report rather better than many
surveys I've seen.

I selected my two brokers (one UK and one US) on the basis
that if the broker insisted on a warts and all approach, he
was also going to be far more likely not to waste everyone's
time. Very few met that criterion. I think that's been your
experience too!

It's saved me un-necessary journeys for viewing. Cowboys and
gawpers who just want to peer around have been put off. But
it's caught the imagination of about three really keen guys.
Big tour starts at the end of Feb when they'll all be coming
round to have a look. Does all this make me as picky a
seller as you are a buyer? Interesting thought.

There have been the oddballs too. Emails which offer to buy
the boat tomorrow with a certified check if I send them a
few £££ for postage, for delivery, for whatever. They soon
disappear.
--
JimB
Yacht Rapaz, sadly for sale:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
jim(dot)baerselman(at)ntlworld(dot)com

My friend just sold his Oyster 46. Email me if you are interested in his
email address
remove the xxx to respond
Bruce
"JimB" wrote in message
news
"Skip Gundlach"
wrote in
message
ink.net...

Well, I've been in correspondence with a variety of folks
as we go along

:{)) I wonder how many are actually reading it?

whole load of snips

Well, me for one, Skip. Because I'm selling my boat, and
you've given me a great insight into one type of (patient &
thorough) buyer. So I've tailored my approach to selling . .

You set me on a warts and all approach after the initial
'here's my beautiful boat' bait (see my signature, below.
Which had a mis-spelling for a week or two!). Those who
respond get my work list for commissioning next year,
divided up into four sections: 'routine', 'must do', 'nice
to have & cosmetic' and 'watchlist for future years',
together with a condition report rather better than many
surveys I've seen.

I selected my two brokers (one UK and one US) on the basis
that if the broker insisted on a warts and all approach, he
was also going to be far more likely not to waste everyone's
time. Very few met that criterion. I think that's been your
experience too!

It's saved me un-necessary journeys for viewing. Cowboys and
gawpers who just want to peer around have been put off. But
it's caught the imagination of about three really keen guys.
Big tour starts at the end of Feb when they'll all be coming
round to have a look. Does all this make me as picky a
seller as you are a buyer? Interesting thought.

There have been the oddballs too. Emails which offer to buy
the boat tomorrow with a certified check if I send them a
few £££ for postage, for delivery, for whatever. They soon
disappear.
--
JimB
Yacht Rapaz, sadly for sale:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
jim(dot)baerselman(at)ntlworld(dot)com

My friend just sold his Oyster 46. Email me if you are interested in his
email address
remove the xxx to respond
Bruce
"JimB" wrote in message
news
"Skip Gundlach"
wrote in
message
ink.net...

Well, I've been in correspondence with a variety of folks
as we go along

:{)) I wonder how many are actually reading it?

whole load of snips

Well, me for one, Skip. Because I'm selling my boat, and
you've given me a great insight into one type of (patient &
thorough) buyer. So I've tailored my approach to selling . .

You set me on a warts and all approach after the initial
'here's my beautiful boat' bait (see my signature, below.
Which had a mis-spelling for a week or two!). Those who
respond get my work list for commissioning next year,
divided up into four sections: 'routine', 'must do', 'nice
to have & cosmetic' and 'watchlist for future years',
together with a condition report rather better than many
surveys I've seen.

I selected my two brokers (one UK and one US) on the basis
that if the broker insisted on a warts and all approach, he
was also going to be far more likely not to waste everyone's
time. Very few met that criterion. I think that's been your
experience too!

It's saved me un-necessary journeys for viewing. Cowboys and
gawpers who just want to peer around have been put off. But
it's caught the imagination of about three really keen guys.
Big tour starts at the end of Feb when they'll all be coming
round to have a look. Does all this make me as picky a
seller as you are a buyer? Interesting thought.

There have been the oddballs too. Emails which offer to buy
the boat tomorrow with a certified check if I send them a
few £££ for postage, for delivery, for whatever. They soon
disappear.
--
JimB
Yacht Rapaz, sadly for sale:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
jim(dot)baerselman(at)ntlworld(dot)com

I must say that your web page advertisment answers the vast majority
of my questions. Well done. Were I to follow up on this (too early for
me financially, alas), we could get down to brass tacks immediately
without wasting a lot of time.

Someone's going to get a nice boat eventually, I think.

R.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:38:39 -0000, "JimB"
wrote:

"Skip Gundlach"
u wrote in
message
link.net...

Well, I've been in correspondence with a variety of folks
as we go along

:{)) I wonder how many are actually reading it?

whole load of snips

Well, me for one, Skip. Because I'm selling my boat, and
you've given me a great insight into one type of (patient &
thorough) buyer. So I've tailored my approach to selling . .

You set me on a warts and all approach after the initial
'here's my beautiful boat' bait (see my signature, below.
Which had a mis-spelling for a week or two!). Those who
respond get my work list for commissioning next year,
divided up into four sections: 'routine', 'must do', 'nice
to have & cosmetic' and 'watchlist for future years',
together with a condition report rather better than many
surveys I've seen.

I selected my two brokers (one UK and one US) on the basis
that if the broker insisted on a warts and all approach, he
was also going to be far more likely not to waste everyone's
time. Very few met that criterion. I think that's been your
experience too!

It's saved me un-necessary journeys for viewing. Cowboys and
gawpers who just want to peer around have been put off. But
it's caught the imagination of about three really keen guys.
Big tour starts at the end of Feb when they'll all be coming
round to have a look. Does all this make me as picky a
seller as you are a buyer? Interesting thought.

There have been the oddballs too. Emails which offer to buy
the boat tomorrow with a certified check if I send them a
few £££ for postage, for delivery, for whatever. They soon
disappear.