I have cut and pasted (because I can't copy the link down far enough to get
this) the post below from JeffH (my apologies, Jeff), a sailor whose thoughts
on things sailing are always WELL worth listening to. The following may shed
some light on the thread where Wendy is trying to find the boat right for her.

************************************************** *

"I am not sure that the terms 'cruiser' or 'liveaboard' are used with any real
degree of precision or consistency by brokers or owners. I see these terms
routinely applied as if there is no real difference between the two but in my
mind there are big differences. In a general sense a cruiser (especially one
intended to go distance voyaging) is a very different animal than a live aboard
and is optimized more for sailing ability, seaworthiness and accomodations that
are comfortable at large heel angles and while under way. A liveaboard is
optimized for being spacious and laid out for life in a slip or on the anchor.
All else takes a back seat.

To be more specific, if you look at a boat that is intended as a distance
cruiser, there will be larger water and fuel capacities because they need to be
able to function independent of land for longer periods of time. On a serious
cruiser, passageways will be narrower and arranged to provide continuous
reliable foot and hand holds. On a serious cruiser all lockers and gear will
have positive hold downs and on modern designs these latches will automatically
engage. If you are simply living aboard these positive latches are more of a
pain to deal with everytime that you want to do something. On a serious cruiser
the cockpit is smaller to avoid the dangers implied if the boat gets pooped
where as a good liveaboard will have a generous cockpit area. On a serious
cruiser the head and galley area will be intentionally cramped so that you can
get a foothold and work safely. Berths on cruisers are intentionally narrow so
that a sleeping crew person won't be thrown about. Ideally there is one
seaberth for each person aboard located near the center of buoyancy of the
boat. These tight quarters are less convenient if you are living aboard.

Serious cruisers tend to have a lot more structural compenents (glassed in
bulkheads, longitudinal and transverse frames etc.) and these components take
up room and make a boat seem a little more claustiphobic than is preferable if
the boat is only intended as a live aboard. Interior volume is most critical to
a liveaboard, bulk storage for cruising gear is more important to a cruising
boat. Adding to those encroachments into the interior volume is the space
occupied by larger capacity tanks, batteries, bilge volumes, and a higher
ballast ratio that would be more critical to a cruising oriented boat.

Cruisers tend to have smaller portlights and deck openings and eschew ports in
the hull or transom as being vulnerable. Liveaboards often have larger deck
openings and portlights placed anywhere that can visually open up an interior.

Heads located at the very ends of the boat are useless offshore. Double queen
size berths with open sides, or berths oriented athwartships or headboards
facing the nearest end of the boat are useless offshore, but make sense for
marina life since they easier to make up and make 'normal life' easier.

Furnishings on a cruising boat needs to be able to withstand the full force of
the impact of a person being thrown against it. Utility and flexibility of
useage is more important to a live aboard. Comforts of home with 'captains
chairs' and fully found entertainment centers are important features of a live
aboard. These 'features' simply take up space on a cruiser. High maintenance
systems like air conditioning and to a lesser extent refrigeration are less
important on cruiser.

Cruisers ideally do not have interior hull liners so that all areas of the hull
and components of the boat's systems can be reached from the interior in an
emergency. This is less of a concern in a liveaboard and liners make lockers
easier to keep clean and free of odors.

Cruisers often use 65 to 70 cm stanchion heights (roughly 26- 27.5 inches) with
addition diagonal braces, while liveaboards prefer the convenience of 23" to
24" height stanchions without the tripping hazzard of the additional braces.

Sailing ability, seakindliness, and seaworthiness is far more important for
boat intended to do serious cruising rather than be a liveaboard. As a result,a
boat that is intended to be a cruiser will generally have a narrower beam, less
freeboard, a lower vertical center of gravity and deeper draft than a boat that
is intended as liveaboard.

Purpose built cruisers tend to be more expensive to build and maintain as they
generally require more sophisticated structural components, sturdier
furnishings, redundancy and better hardware.

Perhaps to illustrate what I am thinking with a couple examples, I think of a
Kelly Peterson 44/46 as the quintessential cruiser, while I think of a boat
like the Morgan Out Island series being quintessential live aboards, and the
Island Packet series being somewhere in between but somewhat closer to the
liveaboard than cruiser end of things.

I am sure that I skipped over plenty here and certainly some of this is very
subjective, but hopefully it will at least give you some sense of these terms.
If you have "the express desire to cruise to far off places" then a cruising
design would probably make more sense. That said, not all boats that are listed
as cruisers really are cruisers. Neither does all boats listed as liveaboards
make sense as liveaboards.

Lastly, I am not saying that a cruiser or a liveaboard are universally a better
boat in all cases. We all approach the water with differing goals and if your
goal is simply to live aboard, then it makes very little sense to invest in a
purpose built cruiser. By the same token, while you may be able to go offshore
in a boat that is better suited as a liveaboard, there will be times when that
decision could prove very uncomfortable or even worse.

Respectfully,
Jeff "

Very well put. Neither is wrong, but they are nearly polar opposites
in terms of the "sailing" experience. "Living aboard" a cruiser while
at dock is uncomfortable for most people, unless you are pretty
compact. Going over an ocean in the backyard-sized main cabins of the
standard "liveaboard" designs (most of today's cruisers) can be
downright hazardous, like being a dried pea in a cardboard tube. At
dock or anchor, though, it is undoubtedly more conduisive to RnR.

R.

On 02 Feb 2004 14:39:56 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

I have cut and pasted (because I can't copy the link down far enough to get
this) the post below from JeffH (my apologies, Jeff), a sailor whose thoughts
on things sailing are always WELL worth listening to. The following may shed
some light on the thread where Wendy is trying to find the boat right for her.

************************************************* **

"I am not sure that the terms 'cruiser' or 'liveaboard' are used with any real
degree of precision or consistency by brokers or owners. I see these terms
routinely applied as if there is no real difference between the two but in my
mind there are big differences. In a general sense a cruiser (especially one
intended to go distance voyaging) is a very different animal than a live aboard
and is optimized more for sailing ability, seaworthiness and accomodations that
are comfortable at large heel angles and while under way. A liveaboard is
optimized for being spacious and laid out for life in a slip or on the anchor.
All else takes a back seat.

To be more specific, if you look at a boat that is intended as a distance
cruiser, there will be larger water and fuel capacities because they need to be
able to function independent of land for longer periods of time. On a serious
cruiser, passageways will be narrower and arranged to provide continuous
reliable foot and hand holds. On a serious cruiser all lockers and gear will
have positive hold downs and on modern designs these latches will automatically
engage. If you are simply living aboard these positive latches are more of a
pain to deal with everytime that you want to do something. On a serious cruiser
the cockpit is smaller to avoid the dangers implied if the boat gets pooped
where as a good liveaboard will have a generous cockpit area. On a serious
cruiser the head and galley area will be intentionally cramped so that you can
get a foothold and work safely. Berths on cruisers are intentionally narrow so
that a sleeping crew person won't be thrown about. Ideally there is one
seaberth for each person aboard located near the center of buoyancy of the
boat. These tight quarters are less convenient if you are living aboard.

Serious cruisers tend to have a lot more structural compenents (glassed in
bulkheads, longitudinal and transverse frames etc.) and these components take
up room and make a boat seem a little more claustiphobic than is preferable if
the boat is only intended as a live aboard. Interior volume is most critical to
a liveaboard, bulk storage for cruising gear is more important to a cruising
boat. Adding to those encroachments into the interior volume is the space
occupied by larger capacity tanks, batteries, bilge volumes, and a higher
ballast ratio that would be more critical to a cruising oriented boat.

Cruisers tend to have smaller portlights and deck openings and eschew ports in
the hull or transom as being vulnerable. Liveaboards often have larger deck
openings and portlights placed anywhere that can visually open up an interior.

Heads located at the very ends of the boat are useless offshore. Double queen
size berths with open sides, or berths oriented athwartships or headboards
facing the nearest end of the boat are useless offshore, but make sense for
marina life since they easier to make up and make 'normal life' easier.

Furnishings on a cruising boat needs to be able to withstand the full force of
the impact of a person being thrown against it. Utility and flexibility of
useage is more important to a live aboard. Comforts of home with 'captains
chairs' and fully found entertainment centers are important features of a live
aboard. These 'features' simply take up space on a cruiser. High maintenance
systems like air conditioning and to a lesser extent refrigeration are less
important on cruiser.

Cruisers ideally do not have interior hull liners so that all areas of the hull
and components of the boat's systems can be reached from the interior in an
emergency. This is less of a concern in a liveaboard and liners make lockers
easier to keep clean and free of odors.

Cruisers often use 65 to 70 cm stanchion heights (roughly 26- 27.5 inches) with
addition diagonal braces, while liveaboards prefer the convenience of 23" to
24" height stanchions without the tripping hazzard of the additional braces.

Sailing ability, seakindliness, and seaworthiness is far more important for
boat intended to do serious cruising rather than be a liveaboard. As a result,a
boat that is intended to be a cruiser will generally have a narrower beam, less
freeboard, a lower vertical center of gravity and deeper draft than a boat that
is intended as liveaboard.

Purpose built cruisers tend to be more expensive to build and maintain as they
generally require more sophisticated structural components, sturdier
furnishings, redundancy and better hardware.

Perhaps to illustrate what I am thinking with a couple examples, I think of a
Kelly Peterson 44/46 as the quintessential cruiser, while I think of a boat
like the Morgan Out Island series being quintessential live aboards, and the
Island Packet series being somewhere in between but somewhat closer to the
liveaboard than cruiser end of things.

I am sure that I skipped over plenty here and certainly some of this is very
subjective, but hopefully it will at least give you some sense of these terms.
If you have "the express desire to cruise to far off places" then a cruising
design would probably make more sense. That said, not all boats that are listed
as cruisers really are cruisers. Neither does all boats listed as liveaboards
make sense as liveaboards.

Lastly, I am not saying that a cruiser or a liveaboard are universally a better
boat in all cases. We all approach the water with differing goals and if your
goal is simply to live aboard, then it makes very little sense to invest in a
purpose built cruiser. By the same token, while you may be able to go offshore
in a boat that is better suited as a liveaboard, there will be times when that
decision could prove very uncomfortable or even worse.

Respectfully,
Jeff "

Very well put. Neither is wrong, but they are nearly polar opposites
in terms of the "sailing" experience. "Living aboard" a cruiser while
at dock is uncomfortable for most people, unless you are pretty
compact. Going over an ocean in the backyard-sized main cabins of the
standard "liveaboard" designs (most of today's cruisers) can be
downright hazardous, like being a dried pea in a cardboard tube. At
dock or anchor, though, it is undoubtedly more conduisive to RnR.

R.

On 02 Feb 2004 14:39:56 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

I have cut and pasted (because I can't copy the link down far enough to get
this) the post below from JeffH (my apologies, Jeff), a sailor whose thoughts
on things sailing are always WELL worth listening to. The following may shed
some light on the thread where Wendy is trying to find the boat right for her.

************************************************* **

"I am not sure that the terms 'cruiser' or 'liveaboard' are used with any real
degree of precision or consistency by brokers or owners. I see these terms
routinely applied as if there is no real difference between the two but in my
mind there are big differences. In a general sense a cruiser (especially one
intended to go distance voyaging) is a very different animal than a live aboard
and is optimized more for sailing ability, seaworthiness and accomodations that
are comfortable at large heel angles and while under way. A liveaboard is
optimized for being spacious and laid out for life in a slip or on the anchor.
All else takes a back seat.

To be more specific, if you look at a boat that is intended as a distance
cruiser, there will be larger water and fuel capacities because they need to be
able to function independent of land for longer periods of time. On a serious
cruiser, passageways will be narrower and arranged to provide continuous
reliable foot and hand holds. On a serious cruiser all lockers and gear will
have positive hold downs and on modern designs these latches will automatically
engage. If you are simply living aboard these positive latches are more of a
pain to deal with everytime that you want to do something. On a serious cruiser
the cockpit is smaller to avoid the dangers implied if the boat gets pooped
where as a good liveaboard will have a generous cockpit area. On a serious
cruiser the head and galley area will be intentionally cramped so that you can
get a foothold and work safely. Berths on cruisers are intentionally narrow so
that a sleeping crew person won't be thrown about. Ideally there is one
seaberth for each person aboard located near the center of buoyancy of the
boat. These tight quarters are less convenient if you are living aboard.

Serious cruisers tend to have a lot more structural compenents (glassed in
bulkheads, longitudinal and transverse frames etc.) and these components take
up room and make a boat seem a little more claustiphobic than is preferable if
the boat is only intended as a live aboard. Interior volume is most critical to
a liveaboard, bulk storage for cruising gear is more important to a cruising
boat. Adding to those encroachments into the interior volume is the space
occupied by larger capacity tanks, batteries, bilge volumes, and a higher
ballast ratio that would be more critical to a cruising oriented boat.

Cruisers tend to have smaller portlights and deck openings and eschew ports in
the hull or transom as being vulnerable. Liveaboards often have larger deck
openings and portlights placed anywhere that can visually open up an interior.

Heads located at the very ends of the boat are useless offshore. Double queen
size berths with open sides, or berths oriented athwartships or headboards
facing the nearest end of the boat are useless offshore, but make sense for
marina life since they easier to make up and make 'normal life' easier.

Furnishings on a cruising boat needs to be able to withstand the full force of
the impact of a person being thrown against it. Utility and flexibility of
useage is more important to a live aboard. Comforts of home with 'captains
chairs' and fully found entertainment centers are important features of a live
aboard. These 'features' simply take up space on a cruiser. High maintenance
systems like air conditioning and to a lesser extent refrigeration are less
important on cruiser.

Cruisers ideally do not have interior hull liners so that all areas of the hull
and components of the boat's systems can be reached from the interior in an
emergency. This is less of a concern in a liveaboard and liners make lockers
easier to keep clean and free of odors.

Cruisers often use 65 to 70 cm stanchion heights (roughly 26- 27.5 inches) with
addition diagonal braces, while liveaboards prefer the convenience of 23" to
24" height stanchions without the tripping hazzard of the additional braces.

Sailing ability, seakindliness, and seaworthiness is far more important for
boat intended to do serious cruising rather than be a liveaboard. As a result,a
boat that is intended to be a cruiser will generally have a narrower beam, less
freeboard, a lower vertical center of gravity and deeper draft than a boat that
is intended as liveaboard.

Purpose built cruisers tend to be more expensive to build and maintain as they
generally require more sophisticated structural components, sturdier
furnishings, redundancy and better hardware.

Perhaps to illustrate what I am thinking with a couple examples, I think of a
Kelly Peterson 44/46 as the quintessential cruiser, while I think of a boat
like the Morgan Out Island series being quintessential live aboards, and the
Island Packet series being somewhere in between but somewhat closer to the
liveaboard than cruiser end of things.

I am sure that I skipped over plenty here and certainly some of this is very
subjective, but hopefully it will at least give you some sense of these terms.
If you have "the express desire to cruise to far off places" then a cruising
design would probably make more sense. That said, not all boats that are listed
as cruisers really are cruisers. Neither does all boats listed as liveaboards
make sense as liveaboards.

Lastly, I am not saying that a cruiser or a liveaboard are universally a better
boat in all cases. We all approach the water with differing goals and if your
goal is simply to live aboard, then it makes very little sense to invest in a
purpose built cruiser. By the same token, while you may be able to go offshore
in a boat that is better suited as a liveaboard, there will be times when that
decision could prove very uncomfortable or even worse.

Respectfully,
Jeff "