I just had a 27' sailboat survey for insurance purposes and ran into
some problems.
Number 1. The propane tank along with its associated plumbing and
solenoid valve sit in the anchor locker forward. This locker is vented
at the bottom thru the hull above the water line which also acts as the
water drain. The running light wiring runs to a terminal strip at the
top of the locker. The surveyor says this is a no no, that no electrical
wiring can be in this locker! In that case, how can they justify the
solenoid being in there?
Second problem. This boat was converted from a diesel inboard to a
Honda outboard. The diesel tank was fitted and vented for gas usage.
There is no bilge to speak of in this boat, but the surveyor says the
boat needs a bilge blower because of the gas tank!
G

"Gordon" wrote in message
...
I just had a 27' sailboat survey for insurance purposes and ran into
some problems.
Number 1. The propane tank along with its associated plumbing and
solenoid valve sit in the anchor locker forward. This locker is vented at
the bottom thru the hull above the water line which also acts as the water
drain. The running light wiring runs to a terminal strip at the top of the
locker. The surveyor says this is a no no, that no electrical wiring can
be in this locker! In that case, how can they justify the solenoid being
in there?

When I bought my boat in Florida it passed survey very well. However, when I
got it here I found that the shutoff valve for the propane bottle was
controlled electrically and operated by a solenoid and this whole assembly
was in the vented container alongside the bottle. It seemed to be taking
current all the time gas was being used and I found that the solenoid was
getting pretty warm. I did not like that at all so threw it out and reverted
to a manually operated valve. However,my point is that the surveyor did not
find any fault with that setup so it seems to be down to the individual
surveyor whether it is approved or not.

Second problem. This boat was converted from a diesel inboard to a Honda
outboard. The diesel tank was fitted and vented for gas usage. There is no
bilge to speak of in this boat, but the surveyor says the boat needs a
bilge blower because of the gas tank!

That does not sound unreasonable as long as the blower itself and its switch
are sealed against sparking.

Gordon wrote:
I just had a 27' sailboat survey for insurance purposes and ran into
some problems.
Number 1. The propane tank along with its associated plumbing and
solenoid valve sit in the anchor locker forward. This locker is vented
at the bottom thru the hull above the water line which also acts as the
water drain.

Sounds like a kludge, but it may be more space-efficient to only build
one water/vapor tight compartment and use it for both.


... The running light wiring runs to a terminal strip at the
top of the locker. The surveyor says this is a no no, that no electrical
wiring can be in this locker! In that case, how can they justify the
solenoid being in there?

Because the solenoid is (or darn well better be) a non-sparking type.
It is inside the compartment so that it can shut off propane *before*
it gets outside that compartment and into the rest of the boat.

If the solenoid doesn't say 'spark free' or 'marine rated' or
something like that, replace that too even if the surveyor didn't
recommend it.

As for the contact strip- that's shouldn't be used in running light
wiring... shouldn't be installed in a place guaranteed to get wet if
not immersed... and could make a spark if contacted while live. It
should be easy to replace the running light wires, without a contact
strip in line.

As for "no wires in the propane locker" I don't think the ABYC
recommendation is that strict. It's a good idea to not have any wires
not specifically needed, like the solenoid wiring. But if there is
absolutely no possible conceivable way to run the wires to the running
lights without going thru the anchor/propane locker, then call the
ABYC and ask for an interpretation of their standard.


Second problem. This boat was converted from a diesel inboard to a
Honda outboard. The diesel tank was fitted and vented for gas usage.

That was a bad idea too, for several reasons.

There is no bilge to speak of in this boat, but the surveyor says the
boat needs a bilge blower because of the gas tank!

And he's right.
Some alternatives: replace the diesel... use an external gas tank,
kept in the cockpit or aft deck or some place NOT inside the hull;
that way you can use the former diesel fuel tank for something else.

Gordon don't take this wrong, but I hope you didn't pay a lot for this
boat. It sounds like it was owned & maintained by one of those
"independent thinkers" who are often a danger to themselves.


"Roger Long" wrote:
He's right on both counts.


Thanks Roger.... oh wait, you meant the surveyor

The solonoid is probably designed to operated in an explosive environment.
All that terminal strip needs is contact with a metalic object, like a tin
foil hat, to make your boat a big fat statistic.


What do you think of running wires.... properly mounted & protected of
course... thru the propane locker?


.... You can have this stuff fixed before the insurance company
even replies. What kind of risk do you think it's going to make them think
you are if you bother them trying to argue against a surveyor's
recommendations? I wouldn't be surprised if they just canceled you instead
of wasting their time.


Excellent point.

Besides, it will be a lot more profitable in the long run to continue
going over the boat with a fine-toothed comb to find all the little
problems that the surveyor missed! And this isn't intended as an
insult, it is impossible to catch every single thing on even a small
boat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Gordon" wrote in message
...
I just had a 27' sailboat survey for insurance purposes and ran into
some problems.
Number 1. The propane tank along with its associated plumbing and
solenoid valve sit in the anchor locker forward. This locker is vented at
the bottom thru the hull above the water line which also acts as the
water drain. The running light wiring runs to a terminal strip at the top
of the locker. The surveyor says this is a no no, that no electrical
wiring can be in this locker! In that case, how can they justify the
solenoid being in there?

When I bought my boat in Florida it passed survey very well. However, when
I got it here I found that the shutoff valve for the propane bottle was
controlled electrically and operated by a solenoid and this whole assembly
was in the vented container alongside the bottle. It seemed to be taking
current all the time gas was being used and I found that the solenoid was
getting pretty warm. I did not like that at all so threw it out and
reverted to a manually operated valve. However,my point is that the
surveyor did not find any fault with that setup so it seems to be down to
the individual surveyor whether it is approved or not.

Second problem. This boat was converted from a diesel inboard to a
Honda outboard. The diesel tank was fitted and vented for gas usage.
There is no bilge to speak of in this boat, but the surveyor says the
boat needs a bilge blower because of the gas tank!

That does not sound unreasonable as long as the blower itself and its
switch are sealed against sparking.

Does the alternator on the Honda powerfull enough to maintain the batteries
functional to activate and run the blower and especialy when the nav. lights
are on.

wrote:
Gordon wrote:
I just had a 27' sailboat survey for insurance purposes and ran into
some problems.
Number 1. The propane tank along with its associated plumbing and
solenoid valve sit in the anchor locker forward. This locker is vented
at the bottom thru the hull above the water line which also acts as the
water drain.

Sounds like a kludge, but it may be more space-efficient to only build
one water/vapor tight compartment and use it for both.


... The running light wiring runs to a terminal strip at the
top of the locker. The surveyor says this is a no no, that no electrical
wiring can be in this locker! In that case, how can they justify the
solenoid being in there?

Because the solenoid is (or darn well better be) a non-sparking type.
It is inside the compartment so that it can shut off propane *before*
it gets outside that compartment and into the rest of the boat.

If the solenoid doesn't say 'spark free' or 'marine rated' or
something like that, replace that too even if the surveyor didn't
recommend it.

As for the contact strip- that's shouldn't be used in running light
wiring... shouldn't be installed in a place guaranteed to get wet if
not immersed... and could make a spark if contacted while live. It
should be easy to replace the running light wires, without a contact
strip in line.

As for "no wires in the propane locker" I don't think the ABYC
recommendation is that strict. It's a good idea to not have any wires
not specifically needed, like the solenoid wiring. But if there is
absolutely no possible conceivable way to run the wires to the running
lights without going thru the anchor/propane locker, then call the
ABYC and ask for an interpretation of their standard.


Second problem. This boat was converted from a diesel inboard to a
Honda outboard. The diesel tank was fitted and vented for gas usage.

That was a bad idea too, for several reasons.

There is no bilge to speak of in this boat, but the surveyor says the
boat needs a bilge blower because of the gas tank!

And he's right.
Some alternatives: replace the diesel... use an external gas tank,
kept in the cockpit or aft deck or some place NOT inside the hull;
that way you can use the former diesel fuel tank for something else.

Gordon don't take this wrong, but I hope you didn't pay a lot for this
boat. It sounds like it was owned & maintained by one of those
"independent thinkers" who are often a danger to themselves.


"Roger Long" wrote:
He's right on both counts.


Thanks Roger.... oh wait, you meant the surveyor

The solonoid is probably designed to operated in an explosive environment.
All that terminal strip needs is contact with a metalic object, like a tin
foil hat, to make your boat a big fat statistic.


What do you think of running wires.... properly mounted & protected of
course... thru the propane locker?

.... You can have this stuff fixed before the insurance company
even replies. What kind of risk do you think it's going to make them think
you are if you bother them trying to argue against a surveyor's
recommendations? I wouldn't be surprised if they just canceled you instead
of wasting their time.


Excellent point.

Besides, it will be a lot more profitable in the long run to continue
going over the boat with a fine-toothed comb to find all the little
problems that the surveyor missed! And this isn't intended as an
insult, it is impossible to catch every single thing on even a small
boat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug Kin

Update on the survey
Wires in the propane locker were butt spliced and sealed with silicone.

Blower in the gas tank compartment
Not necessary because, as this is an outboard engine, the ignition
source is gone. And to add a blower would be adding an ignition source!
Gordon

wrote:
On Wed, 14 May 2008 16:54:15 -0700, Gordon wrote:

wrote:
Gordon wrote:
I just had a 27' sailboat survey for insurance purposes and ran into
some problems.
Number 1. The propane tank along with its associated plumbing and
solenoid valve sit in the anchor locker forward. This locker is vented
at the bottom thru the hull above the water line which also acts as the
water drain.
Sounds like a kludge, but it may be more space-efficient to only build
one water/vapor tight compartment and use it for both.


... The running light wiring runs to a terminal strip at the
top of the locker. The surveyor says this is a no no, that no electrical
wiring can be in this locker! In that case, how can they justify the
solenoid being in there?
Because the solenoid is (or darn well better be) a non-sparking type.
It is inside the compartment so that it can shut off propane *before*
it gets outside that compartment and into the rest of the boat.

If the solenoid doesn't say 'spark free' or 'marine rated' or
something like that, replace that too even if the surveyor didn't
recommend it.

As for the contact strip- that's shouldn't be used in running light
wiring... shouldn't be installed in a place guaranteed to get wet if
not immersed... and could make a spark if contacted while live. It
should be easy to replace the running light wires, without a contact
strip in line.

As for "no wires in the propane locker" I don't think the ABYC
recommendation is that strict. It's a good idea to not have any wires
not specifically needed, like the solenoid wiring. But if there is
absolutely no possible conceivable way to run the wires to the running
lights without going thru the anchor/propane locker, then call the
ABYC and ask for an interpretation of their standard.


Second problem. This boat was converted from a diesel inboard to a
Honda outboard. The diesel tank was fitted and vented for gas usage.
That was a bad idea too, for several reasons.

There is no bilge to speak of in this boat, but the surveyor says the
boat needs a bilge blower because of the gas tank!
And he's right.
Some alternatives: replace the diesel... use an external gas tank,
kept in the cockpit or aft deck or some place NOT inside the hull;
that way you can use the former diesel fuel tank for something else.

Gordon don't take this wrong, but I hope you didn't pay a lot for this
boat. It sounds like it was owned & maintained by one of those
"independent thinkers" who are often a danger to themselves.


"Roger Long" wrote:
He's right on both counts.

Thanks Roger.... oh wait, you meant the surveyor

The solonoid is probably designed to operated in an explosive environment.
All that terminal strip needs is contact with a metalic object, like a tin
foil hat, to make your boat a big fat statistic.

What do you think of running wires.... properly mounted & protected of
course... thru the propane locker?

.... You can have this stuff fixed before the insurance company
even replies. What kind of risk do you think it's going to make them think
you are if you bother them trying to argue against a surveyor's
recommendations? I wouldn't be surprised if they just canceled you instead
of wasting their time.

Excellent point.

Besides, it will be a lot more profitable in the long run to continue
going over the boat with a fine-toothed comb to find all the little
problems that the surveyor missed! And this isn't intended as an
insult, it is impossible to catch every single thing on even a small
boat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug Kin
Update on the survey
Wires in the propane locker were butt spliced and sealed with silicone.

Blower in the gas tank compartment
Not necessary because, as this is an outboard engine, the ignition
source is gone. And to add a blower would be adding an ignition source!
Gordon

Incorrect. The exemption for an outboard would be for a portable tank that is
not in a confined space. You have a permanently installed tank. The blower would
NOT add an ignition source, and the blower would be designed and built
specifically for safe operation in an explosive atmosphere.


I would agree in theory, but I couldn't find anything in my (old) ABYC
standards that said that unequivocally - it seems to depend on the
location and ventilation of the tank. In fact, I don't think the
outboard powered version of my boat has blowers, although in that case
there is no bilge under the fuel tank.