"Steve Lusardi" wrote:

Geof,
I bought a 1 year old Class A Simrad unit used as a demo unit for marine
shows on eBay for $1300. Please note, there are substantial differences
between Class A and Class B. One of which is the Class A has its own
internal GPS among many others.
Steve

"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
. ..
Has anyone seen any used AIS class A transponders for sale? I do enough
off-shore sailing to want a class A instead of a class B.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

I have found that my class B (ACR) works fine offshore. The big guys
see me and I see them.

Class B transponders also have GPS built in.

Michael Porter


Michael Porter Marine Design
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

Larry wrote:


Don't you have to have a Class A ship to use that? I didn't think pleasure
boats were supposed to be on Class A's turf.....or have the GMDSS
Operator's License from the FCC to operate it.

Bruce in Alaska? Which license does he need ship and operator for Class
A??

In the Carib. I saw several pleasure boats (admittedly mostly bigger
than us) with class A units. Don't know about the licensing, but it's
just another VHF radio.

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Marine Design
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

Michael Porter wrote in
:

Don't know about the licensing, but it's
just another VHF radio.


Well, yes and no, it's not......

For US boats, the FCC says:

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?
job=licensing&id=ship_stations

"Who Needs a Ship Station License
You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or
EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating domestically. The term
"voluntary ships" refers to ships that are not required by law to carry
a radio. Generally, this term applies to recreation or pleasure craft.
The term "voluntary ships" does not apply to the following:

1. Cargo ships over 300 gross tons navigating in the open sea;
2. Ships certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry more than 6
passengers for hire in the open sea or tidewaters of the U.S.;
3. Power driven ships over 20 meters in length on navigable
waterways;
4. Ships of more than 100 gross tons certified by the U.S. Coast
Guard to carry at least one passenger on navigable waterways;
5. Tow boats of more than 7.8 meters in length on navigable
waterways; and,
6. Uninspected commercial fishing industry vessels required to carry
a VHF radio.
7. Ships required to carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS)
transceiver by the U.S. Coast Guard regulations enacted pursuant to the
Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2000."

Either class of AIS transponder is NOT a "marine VHF radio", though it
operates on two their old marine operator channels.

Of course, in true bureaucratic form, FCC has a muddled legalese of
conflicting rules and regs only a Philadelphia lawyer can read:

"The GMDSS regulations are contained in 47 C.F.R. Part 80. Most of the
GMDSS regulations are in Subpart W of Part 80, but Subpart W also cross-
references certain other FCC rules, as follows (the cross-referencing
Subpart W is listed parenthetically after the cross-referenced rule):
13.2 (80.1073(a)), 13.21 (80.1073(a)), 80.334 (80.1114), 80.335
(80.1114), 80.836 (80.1065(b)(5)(iii)), 80.933 (80.1065(b)(5)(iii))."

Does 80.1065(b)(5)(iii) supercede 80.933 or is it separate in parens??
Who the hell set sails and read this?.....almost noone.

Look closely at your copy of:
Report and Order, PR Docket No. 90-480, FCC 92-19, 7 FCC Rcd 951 (1992)
to see some changes to GMDSS rules.

================================================== ================

On a separate issue, I don't understand this:

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...b=operations_2
&id=ship_stations

"What are the requirements regarding communications personnel aboard
GMDSS ships?
The FCC requires two licensed radio operators to be aboard all GMDSS
certified ships, one of whom must be available to act as a dedicated
radio operator during a distress situation. The radio operators must be
holders of a GMDSS Radio Operator's License. The GMDSS radio operator is
an individual licensed to handle radio communications aboard ships in
compliance with the GMDSS regulations, including basic equipment and
antenna adjustments. The GMDSS radio operator need not be a radio
officer.
Another IMO Convention requires all masters and mates to hold the GMDSS
Radio Operator's License and attend a two week training course and
demonstrate competency with operation of the GMDSS equipment. These
requirements would also carry to any person employed specifically to act
as a dedicated radio operator if the ship elected to carry such a
position."

DSC, the selective calling and distress messaging part of your
unlicensed VHF radio they told you didn't require a license, is PART OF
GMDSS! So, requires TWO licensed radio operators holding GMDSS Radio
Operator's Licenses, one of which must be free to operate the GMDSS
equipment during emergencies. All masters and mates must hold GMDSS
Radio Operator's Licenses and attend a two week training course and
demonstrate competency with operation of the GMDSS Equipment.

The question has never been adequately answered......What about using
the DSC part of GMDSS on a sailboat that has no license at all??.....

It's a bureaucratic nightmare........

Then there's Maritel's money grab:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-03-3669A1.doc

"Domestic vessels would be charged an initial registration fee of $300
(for mandatory carriage vessels) or $375 (for non-mandatory carriage
vessels), with an annual renewal fee of $75. Foreign vessels subject to
the SOLAS Convention would be charged a $75 annual fee. Shore stations
would be charged an initial fee of $4,500 per site for processing and RF
engineering study, and a $750 annual renewal fee thereafter."

How much money you got for AIS transponders? That was in 2003! It's
STILL on the FCC's website!

You'll need to keep checking:

http://www.hallikainen.org/FCC/FccRu...ind/080373.htm

as they can't seem to make up their minds even which of Maritel's
precious coast station channels they're going to use for AIS. Early AIS
equipment, like you may have purchased use, might not operate on the
newer channels Maritel and the FCC have been haggling over to maximize
profits....??

As you can see, the FCC websites are a hodge-podge of GMDSS intersperced
with snippets about AIS. The Coast Guard is more sure of itself, even
though it hasn't a clue, most of the time. At least there's some less
conflicting information:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/enav/ais/default.htm

I think you need to first see if that box you bought is "AIS Certified"
by both FCC and USCG:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/enav/ais/...tification.htm
There's a ton of pointers, of course, to a hodge podge of rules and
regulations. So, we go he
http://cgmix.uscg.mil/Equipment/EquipmentSearch.aspx
Click the box that leads to certifications up to include toilet paper
and pick:
Automatic Identification System (AIS)- 165.155
from the pick list.
THERE YA GO! THERE'S ONLY 22 DIFFERENT UNITS CERTIFIED BY USCG!
Is one of these YOURS? If not....dump it...you can't use it.




--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

Larry wrote in
:

Geof,
I bought a 1 year old Class A Simrad unit used as a demo unit for
marine shows on eBay for $1300. Please note, there are substantial
differences between Class A and Class B. One of which is the Class A
has its own internal GPS among many others.
Steve


Steve in Deutchland! There are DIFFERENT AIS units allowed to be used in
DIFFERENT countries. I finally found the list of approved units in the USA
on:
http://cgmix.uscg.mil/Equipment/EquipmentSearch.aspx

There are only 22 units Class A approved to date.

I'm sure Germany has a different, but similar list for German ship stations
to use. AIS is a real mess.....a bureaucratic nightmare.



--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

Michael Porter wrote in
:

"Steve Lusardi" wrote:

Geof,
I bought a 1 year old Class A Simrad unit used as a demo unit for
marine shows on eBay for $1300. Please note, there are substantial
differences between Class A and Class B. One of which is the Class A
has its own internal GPS among many others.
Steve

"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
...
Has anyone seen any used AIS class A transponders for sale? I do
enough off-shore sailing to want a class A instead of a class B.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

I have found that my class B (ACR) works fine offshore. The big guys
see me and I see them.

Class B transponders also have GPS built in.

Michael Porter


Michael Porter Marine Design
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com


You guys might want to read Panbo's information on AIS operation....

http://www.panbo.com/admin/mt-search...s=1&search=ais



--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

Michael Porter wrote in
:

Class B transponders also have GPS built in.


http://www.panbo.com/archives/2009/0..._better_but_my
sterious.html

--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

Larry,
This database is at 4 least years outdated. The Simrad model that has the
approval has been out of production for at least 4 years. My AIS , bought in
the US, is at least 2 generations newer. Manufactured in 2007.
Steve


"Larry" wrote in message
...
Michael Porter wrote in
:

Don't know about the licensing, but it's
just another VHF radio.


Well, yes and no, it's not......

For US boats, the FCC says:

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?
job=licensing&id=ship_stations

"Who Needs a Ship Station License
You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or
EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating domestically. The term
"voluntary ships" refers to ships that are not required by law to carry
a radio. Generally, this term applies to recreation or pleasure craft.
The term "voluntary ships" does not apply to the following:

1. Cargo ships over 300 gross tons navigating in the open sea;
2. Ships certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry more than 6
passengers for hire in the open sea or tidewaters of the U.S.;
3. Power driven ships over 20 meters in length on navigable
waterways;
4. Ships of more than 100 gross tons certified by the U.S. Coast
Guard to carry at least one passenger on navigable waterways;
5. Tow boats of more than 7.8 meters in length on navigable
waterways; and,
6. Uninspected commercial fishing industry vessels required to carry
a VHF radio.
7. Ships required to carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS)
transceiver by the U.S. Coast Guard regulations enacted pursuant to the
Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2000."

Either class of AIS transponder is NOT a "marine VHF radio", though it
operates on two their old marine operator channels.

Of course, in true bureaucratic form, FCC has a muddled legalese of
conflicting rules and regs only a Philadelphia lawyer can read:

"The GMDSS regulations are contained in 47 C.F.R. Part 80. Most of the
GMDSS regulations are in Subpart W of Part 80, but Subpart W also cross-
references certain other FCC rules, as follows (the cross-referencing
Subpart W is listed parenthetically after the cross-referenced rule):
13.2 (80.1073(a)), 13.21 (80.1073(a)), 80.334 (80.1114), 80.335
(80.1114), 80.836 (80.1065(b)(5)(iii)), 80.933 (80.1065(b)(5)(iii))."

Does 80.1065(b)(5)(iii) supercede 80.933 or is it separate in parens??
Who the hell set sails and read this?.....almost noone.

Look closely at your copy of:
Report and Order, PR Docket No. 90-480, FCC 92-19, 7 FCC Rcd 951 (1992)
to see some changes to GMDSS rules.

================================================== ================

On a separate issue, I don't understand this:

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...b=operations_2
&id=ship_stations

"What are the requirements regarding communications personnel aboard
GMDSS ships?
The FCC requires two licensed radio operators to be aboard all GMDSS
certified ships, one of whom must be available to act as a dedicated
radio operator during a distress situation. The radio operators must be
holders of a GMDSS Radio Operator's License. The GMDSS radio operator is
an individual licensed to handle radio communications aboard ships in
compliance with the GMDSS regulations, including basic equipment and
antenna adjustments. The GMDSS radio operator need not be a radio
officer.
Another IMO Convention requires all masters and mates to hold the GMDSS
Radio Operator's License and attend a two week training course and
demonstrate competency with operation of the GMDSS equipment. These
requirements would also carry to any person employed specifically to act
as a dedicated radio operator if the ship elected to carry such a
position."

DSC, the selective calling and distress messaging part of your
unlicensed VHF radio they told you didn't require a license, is PART OF
GMDSS! So, requires TWO licensed radio operators holding GMDSS Radio
Operator's Licenses, one of which must be free to operate the GMDSS
equipment during emergencies. All masters and mates must hold GMDSS
Radio Operator's Licenses and attend a two week training course and
demonstrate competency with operation of the GMDSS Equipment.

The question has never been adequately answered......What about using
the DSC part of GMDSS on a sailboat that has no license at all??.....

It's a bureaucratic nightmare........

Then there's Maritel's money grab:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-03-3669A1.doc

"Domestic vessels would be charged an initial registration fee of $300
(for mandatory carriage vessels) or $375 (for non-mandatory carriage
vessels), with an annual renewal fee of $75. Foreign vessels subject to
the SOLAS Convention would be charged a $75 annual fee. Shore stations
would be charged an initial fee of $4,500 per site for processing and RF
engineering study, and a $750 annual renewal fee thereafter."

How much money you got for AIS transponders? That was in 2003! It's
STILL on the FCC's website!

You'll need to keep checking:

http://www.hallikainen.org/FCC/FccRu...ind/080373.htm

as they can't seem to make up their minds even which of Maritel's
precious coast station channels they're going to use for AIS. Early AIS
equipment, like you may have purchased use, might not operate on the
newer channels Maritel and the FCC have been haggling over to maximize
profits....??

As you can see, the FCC websites are a hodge-podge of GMDSS intersperced
with snippets about AIS. The Coast Guard is more sure of itself, even
though it hasn't a clue, most of the time. At least there's some less
conflicting information:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/enav/ais/default.htm

I think you need to first see if that box you bought is "AIS Certified"
by both FCC and USCG:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/enav/ais/...tification.htm
There's a ton of pointers, of course, to a hodge podge of rules and
regulations. So, we go he
http://cgmix.uscg.mil/Equipment/EquipmentSearch.aspx
Click the box that leads to certifications up to include toilet paper
and pick:
Automatic Identification System (AIS)- 165.155
from the pick list.
THERE YA GO! THERE'S ONLY 22 DIFFERENT UNITS CERTIFIED BY USCG!
Is one of these YOURS? If not....dump it...you can't use it.




--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in
:

Larry,
This database is at 4 least years outdated. The Simrad model that has
the approval has been out of production for at least 4 years. My AIS ,
bought in the US, is at least 2 generations newer. Manufactured in
2007. Steve



Therein lies the big legal problem. The government bureaucrats are so far
behind the technology THEY are still posting 4-year-old data as VALID.
Panbo's website is much better up to date for millions less dollars.

I don't understand why CG and FCC can't get their act together on marine
comms/AIS/GMDSS. It all seems as if they are just baffled by anything but
the basic narrow-band FM transceivers. The local staff just looks
dumbfounded if you ask any of them, here.



--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

In article ,
Larry wrote:

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in
:

Larry,
This database is at 4 least years outdated. The Simrad model that has
the approval has been out of production for at least 4 years. My AIS ,
bought in the US, is at least 2 generations newer. Manufactured in
2007. Steve



Therein lies the big legal problem. The government bureaucrats are so far
behind the technology THEY are still posting 4-year-old data as VALID.
Panbo's website is much better up to date for millions less dollars.

I don't understand why CG and FCC can't get their act together on marine
comms/AIS/GMDSS. It all seems as if they are just baffled by anything but
the basic narrow-band FM transceivers. The local staff just looks
dumbfounded if you ask any of them, here.

Ok, Larry, I have an Inquiry in with the Maritime Rules Chief at the
FCC, but he is on vacation, till the middle of August, so I have another
Inquiry with his Stand-in, who should get back to me, in the next day or
two.... and I will get the definitive answer, for Licensing, for both
Vessel and Operator, for both classes of AIS Transponders.....

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

Bruce in alaska wrote in news:fast-
:

Ok, Larry, I have an Inquiry in with the Maritime Rules Chief at the
FCC, but he is on vacation, till the middle of August, so I have
another
Inquiry with his Stand-in, who should get back to me, in the next day
or
two.... and I will get the definitive answer, for Licensing, for both
Vessel and Operator, for both classes of AIS Transponders.....


Thank you, Bruce. The boaters are just too casual with radio operation,
I'm afraid. It's become even more of a problem when we "went CB" with
no licenses to lose. There's no enforcement in Charleston any more,
either. The only one who calls them out is the CG watch, whom they
mostly ignore.

Marina operations go on no matter whos boat is sinking or whos person is
lost and being searched for. The operators in the marinas, here, are
college kids working in the office with no radio experience, licenses,
operating procedures, etc. We did get them to stop saying "10-4" on the
air, though. Their bosses do make them say the station callsigns. If
someone's calling for help, it's not the marina's fault so the distress
call goes ignored because its not from the diesel or gas docks. All
marinas need to be told to take down the towers and go to 1 watt.
Channel 68 wasn't meant for long range marina communications. Some
marinas have towers 70' high running 25 watts!

Some kids last summer got me mad. Mom and Daddy had left them on the
boat to go shopping or something. They started harrassing people on Ch
16 trying to make calls. The signal was quite strong on my walkie so I
took the antenna off it and started walking the docks, waiting,
listening, walking some more. I had my earphone plugged in so noone
could hear it on the dock. As I walked by this boat from New Jersey, a
nice trawler on the face dock, I heard the kid calling someone out
through the open hatch. I flipped open my cellphone and called CG's
watch giving him the boat name and slip number. He said he had a rib
looking for them, too, and went off to military channels to tell them I
found 'em. About 10 minutes later, a big CG rib came up to the dock,
its sailors all looking like the swat team. They boarded the trawler
and I heard the kids scream. Problem solved. The dockhands said Daddy
got another surprise when he got home. Not sure if some little asses
got the tanning they deserved, probably not....

I bet Daddy secured that radio before he left the boat after that
fine.....

--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?