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#11
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
Why do I keep dreaming of an 802.11g network interface on every piece
of electronics NMEA connects by wires, now? Hell, with broadband, I could overlay the color radar display from the Raymarine right all the computer screens aboard! AND NO WIRES TO PULL THROUGH THE DAMNED BOAT!!.....(9C TCP/IP all around..... Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" |
#12
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
How true. It has taken so long for NEMA2000 to get settled and will be
even longer before it gets implemented by a significant number of vendors that wires are going to be superfluous before it finds a market. Network instruments will be the last thing installed on Rutu before I add water. Larry W4CSC wrote: Why do I keep dreaming of an 802.11g network interface on every piece of electronics NMEA connects by wires, now? Hell, with broadband, I could overlay the color radar display from the Raymarine right all the computer screens aboard! AND NO WIRES TO PULL THROUGH THE DAMNED BOAT!!.....(9C TCP/IP all around..... Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
#13
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... Why do I keep dreaming of an 802.11g network interface on every piece of electronics NMEA connects by wires, now? Hell, with broadband, I could overlay the color radar display from the Raymarine right all the computer screens aboard! Well, do "steel hull" or "aluminum hull" ring a bell? Apart from that, you have to bring power to the electronics anyway, so whats wrong with an extra pair for data? Meindert |
#14
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 00:36:32 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote: "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... Why do I keep dreaming of an 802.11g network interface on every piece of electronics NMEA connects by wires, now? Hell, with broadband, I could overlay the color radar display from the Raymarine right all the computer screens aboard! Well, do "steel hull" or "aluminum hull" ring a bell? Apart from that, you have to bring power to the electronics anyway, so whats wrong with an extra pair for data? Meindert The DC power is already in every space I ever install an instrument. I don't have to pull a wire through the bilge or engine room or overhead to get it. It's already there, plenty of it. As for your comment about wireless in metal hulls, try running a 2400 Mhz WiFi in a steel hull. 2400 Mhz flows right through hatches and other openings over 3" wide. But most people, here, don't have, or more accurately, wouldn't have a metal hull. Your argument to defend your turf is moot. Networking on metal boats could simply be added to the DC circuitry, like the powerline routers are doing now....though they'd have to operate above 24 Mhz to keep interference with the HF radios down. We've fooled around with a powerline router system with wall brick terminals that have Ethernet jacks on them, from Netgear. Every AC jack on the dock becomes a wideband internet connection across the marina. Works great! That could be added to the existing AC or DC power lines in metal boats.....USING TCP/IP NETWORKING, not some idiotic, proprietary protocol designed to prevent you from hooking A company's equipment to B company's equipment....you know....like we have now. Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" |
#15
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
As a metal boat owner, I don't have a choice. The boat looks like a series
of Faraday cages, with metal watertight doors pulled down against very thin gaskets and all the thru bulkhead fittings of minimum size. There will be no 3" gaps; one of the advantages of metal is that you have a good chance of keeping fire and flood in one compartment if you're careful. Even if I had a choice, however, I'd probably stick with wire. A boat is not a house or office. Aside from alternators, we have a variety of sources of potential interference -- radios (150 watt sideband and 25 watt VHFs), radar, and so forth. 802.11 "should" ignore all of that. But "should" is a big word at sea. Although the 10baseT pairs could also act as antennas and could pick up RFI, my instinct is that it's a safer choice. As for using either the AC or DC lines, I have the same objection. And even in relatively small boats, the AC system is usually split bus (so you can plug in two 120V 30A lines to a dock), so you have to do some capacitive coupling. Of course in saying all of this, I do have the advantage that we're doing a major refit, and it's very easy to lay in an extra conduit for the network (actually it isn't even extra as we'll have a conduit for phone and signaling anyway). Certainly if I were adding a network to an existing boat that wasn't well set for easy access everywhere (that's another topic), I'd certainly take a shot at using wireless and test the hell out of it at the dock. -- Jim Woodward www.mvFintry.com .. "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 00:36:32 +0100, "Meindert Sprang" wrote: "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... Why do I keep dreaming of an 802.11g network interface on every piece of electronics NMEA connects by wires, now? Hell, with broadband, I could overlay the color radar display from the Raymarine right all the computer screens aboard! Well, do "steel hull" or "aluminum hull" ring a bell? Apart from that, you have to bring power to the electronics anyway, so whats wrong with an extra pair for data? Meindert The DC power is already in every space I ever install an instrument. I don't have to pull a wire through the bilge or engine room or overhead to get it. It's already there, plenty of it. As for your comment about wireless in metal hulls, try running a 2400 Mhz WiFi in a steel hull. 2400 Mhz flows right through hatches and other openings over 3" wide. But most people, here, don't have, or more accurately, wouldn't have a metal hull. Your argument to defend your turf is moot. Networking on metal boats could simply be added to the DC circuitry, like the powerline routers are doing now....though they'd have to operate above 24 Mhz to keep interference with the HF radios down. We've fooled around with a powerline router system with wall brick terminals that have Ethernet jacks on them, from Netgear. Every AC jack on the dock becomes a wideband internet connection across the marina. Works great! That could be added to the existing AC or DC power lines in metal boats.....USING TCP/IP NETWORKING, not some idiotic, proprietary protocol designed to prevent you from hooking A company's equipment to B company's equipment....you know....like we have now. Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" |
#16
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 09:09:57 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote: As a metal boat owner, I don't have a choice. The boat looks like a series of Faraday cages, with metal watertight doors pulled down against very thin gaskets and all the thru bulkhead fittings of minimum size. There will be no 3" gaps; one of the advantages of metal is that you have a good chance of keeping fire and flood in one compartment if you're careful. Sure wish I could get by your boat to test it out. Every wire going from compartment to compartment is a great antenna for 2400 Mhz....right through those watertight bulkheads. It would be interesting to see how far the usable signal got with the transmitter that close. Even if I had a choice, however, I'd probably stick with wire. A boat is not a house or office. Aside from alternators, we have a variety of sources of potential interference -- radios (150 watt sideband and 25 watt VHFs), radar, and so forth. 802.11 "should" ignore all of that. But "should" is a big word at sea. Although the 10baseT pairs could also act as antennas and could pick up RFI, my instinct is that it's a safer choice. The only 2400 Mhz RFI source on your boat is probably your microwave oven at 2450 Mhz. There is no interference from 150W of HF through the wireless.....LIKE THERE IS ON EVERY WIRE OF THE NMEA SYSTEM aboard the boat. NMEA wiring cannot be effectively shielded as long as manufacturers keep using hookup wire that's not shielded (Garmin) and even stupid Icom, itself, who made the M802 HF-SSB forces you to connect NMEA B (-) to the SHIELD OF A BNC CONNECTOR to hook NMEA input to the HF SSB with DSC. How stupid! Of course, NONE of the plastic boxes the damned cheap marine crap comes in is shielded in the first place against the HF transmitter or your 5W walkie talkie on deck. There's no FORCED standards, just NMEA suggestions from the NMEA the manufacturers control....sorta like the fox guarding the henhouse. As for using either the AC or DC lines, I have the same objection. And even in relatively small boats, the AC system is usually split bus (so you can plug in two 120V 30A lines to a dock), so you have to do some capacitive coupling. There's 2 primary transformers sitting on top of the floating dock at Ashley Marina. The powerline router signal coupled through them, to my amazement, good enough to get the WiFi through them. Of course in saying all of this, I do have the advantage that we're doing a major refit, and it's very easy to lay in an extra conduit for the network (actually it isn't even extra as we'll have a conduit for phone and signaling anyway). Certainly if I were adding a network to an existing boat that wasn't well set for easy access everywhere (that's another topic), I'd certainly take a shot at using wireless and test the hell out of it at the dock. On the larger boat, that's very nice. But, most boat manufacturers, in their attempts to maximize profits, don't put in even the most rudimentary conduit. The wires are just haphazardly laid in behind some panel squished between the panel and the fiberglass shards sticking out. The Endeavour was like that. The Amel Sharki is a different class. The overhead has conduit leading from the outside of the void between the cabin overhead and the deck into the void where there are wires to go in. There's plenty of space, but, alas, no way to fishtape from this little conduit nipple to the next. I finally made up a ring slider I could tie the fishtape to and slide it along the existing French wiring in the void to the other conduit nipple on the other end. It serves quite well. The void acts about 1 to 1.5" high over the main salon. Many wires go through there forward and aft. Do you have a strong high-channel-number UHF TV station in your area? Might be fun to play with a portable TV to see how far inside the boat its signal gets, but that's only 1/3 the network's frequency at 800 Mhz. Do cellular phones work inside? Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" |
#18
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message ...
Certainly if I were adding a network to an existing boat that wasn't well set for easy access everywhere (that's another topic), I'd certainly take a shot at using wireless and test the hell out of it at the dock. -- Jim Woodward www.mvFintry.com Jim, I think you make a good point that testing is definitely the key before leaving the dock. Metal boats do present a problem for wireless networks and my take on doing wireless on a metal boat (assuming you want to and certainly not everyone does) is to mount the external antenna in the salon area so that any cabins (with non-metal or open doors) can access it and the signal can get up the companionway stairs to the cockpit. Would that give you a signal on the foredeck? As you say you'd just have to test it since it will vary with each boat. As an aside I would never recommend anyone use wireless as their sole means of electronic navigation. When we designed our wireless navigation server it was always as an addition to a set of fixed mounted instruments and even more importantly as an addition to having a paper chart and being able to navigate when you lose all form of power aboard. We also require an external NMEA multiplexer to combine the NMEA signals (or convert Seatalk) which allows you to unplug our wireless navigation server and plug the serial connection directly into a laptop were our hardware to fail. Best, Todd -- Marine Wireless http://www.marinewireless.us |
#19
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... The only 2400 Mhz RFI source on your boat is probably your microwave oven at 2450 Mhz. There is no interference from 150W of HF through the wireless.....LIKE THERE IS ON EVERY WIRE OF THE NMEA SYSTEM aboard the boat. NMEA wiring cannot be effectively shielded as long as..... You just take every opportunity for a rant about NMEA, don't you? Why would NMEA at 4800 baud produce more interference than a 100mbit network on UTP (U=Unshielded)? NONE of the plastic boxes the damned cheap marine crap comes in is shielded in the first place against the HF transmitter or your 5W walkie talkie on deck. Another one: It is NOT necessary to put electronics in a shielded boax to be EMC proof. It all depends on proper PCB layout. A lot of equipment in plastic unshielded boxes carry FCC or CE approval. They don't get that approval when the equipment is radiating like hell or going dead when keying an SSB. Meindert |
#20
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Wireless 802.11 NMEA server
What you describe is very typical. Very few of the high tech companies in
the Boston area actually "manufacture" in the sense that I knew it as a kid in Chicago. They never cut metal or paint it. They don't fab, stuff, solder or test PC boards. They just put things together that others make to spec. Recently even the putting together is offsite. As more and more of what's important in products like radars becomes the software, we'll see more products that differ only in software. My choice of Furuno for our big radar (I think, tune in later when I actually buy it) is based entirely on software and user interface. In truth, I haven't even looked at the antenna specs to see if there are any differences between Furuno, Raymarine, and Simrad. There's a fair amount of this in marine electronics. JRC made the Raytheon 41XX -- seems strange, as Raytheon is one of the premier radar companies in the world, but that's the way it was. Airmar makes most of the industry's depth sounder transducers. And so forth. -- Jim Woodward www.mvFintry.com .. "Todd" wrote in message m... (Larry W4CSC) wrote in message ... Are you actually making this, or are you relabeling off-the-shelf stuff as someone says? Are you using this "Virtual Serial Port" software B&B is selling? Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" Hi Larry, Making versus relabling is a really grey issue when it comes to computer hardware. Just look at your wireless access point. They're using a CPU and board from one company, having the case manufactured by a different overseas company, and then using someone else's (probably prism based) 802.11 card and external antenna. Some access point manufacturers write their own firmware and others use linux (e.g. the Dell 802.11 access points). We're doing the same thing, very similar to Dell in that we have a domestic supplier we work with for the CPU and case, another vendor for the wireless transmitter, andenna, and solid state storage, linux as the embedded platform, and then our own embedded software on top of that. We currently do the assembly in-house. With regards to the virtual serial port software we currently use our own. With our beta program we will be evaluating our own virtual serial port software against another vendors and whichever comes out on top is what we will include with the final marine wireless navigation server. Best, Todd -- Marine Wireless http://www.marinewireless.us |
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