Larry and Todd:

It's not quite so simple -- take a look at
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/portland800.jpg.

There are two w/t compartments on the main deck and six below, all possibly
with data, as well as tanks. The wheelhouse can also be separated by a w/t
door. (Remember that in The Perfect Storm movie, Andrea Gail flooded from
the wheelhouse. What really happened, we'll never know.)

Maybe you guys are right -- that wireless would work fine -- certainly there
are a lot of openings in the bulkheads, although they're all small (2" tops)
and sealed with intumescent caulk to keep fire and flood in one place if
they happen -- AC, DC, H&C potable water, sal****er fire main, black and
gray water, compressed air, diesel, and all the information wires.

Question then, given that running wire is really easy, because we'll have
the conduit for phone, burglar, fire alarm, audio, etc. anyway (sure, maybe
all of these can be wireless also, but there are some security issues,
etc.), am I better off with wired or wireless? If Larry's right and 802.11
will really reject everything that it might meet, is it a more robust
installation to go wireless? This assumes that all of the primary stuff on
the bridge is wired -- we're talking about personal computers (in the
broader sense of the words) and a couple of non-critical remote readouts
here.

None of this will go in until we get her on this side of the pond next
summer (God willing). I'd be delighted to try it sometime after then....

--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..

..
"Todd" wrote in message
m...
"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...
Certainly if I were adding a network to an existing boat
that wasn't well set for easy access everywhere (that's another topic),
I'd
certainly take a shot at using wireless and test the hell out of it at
the
dock.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

Jim,

I think you make a good point that testing is definitely the key
before leaving the dock.

Metal boats do present a problem for wireless networks and my take on
doing wireless on a metal boat (assuming you want to and certainly not
everyone does) is to mount the external antenna in the salon area so
that any cabins (with non-metal or open doors) can access it and the
signal can get up the companionway stairs to the cockpit. Would that
give you a signal on the foredeck? As you say you'd just have to test
it since it will vary with each boat.

As an aside I would never recommend anyone use wireless as their sole
means of electronic navigation. When we designed our wireless
navigation server it was always as an addition to a set of fixed
mounted instruments and even more importantly as an addition to having
a paper chart and being able to navigate when you lose all form of
power aboard. We also require an external NMEA multiplexer to combine
the NMEA signals (or convert Seatalk) which allows you to unplug our
wireless navigation server and plug the serial connection directly
into a laptop were our hardware to fail.

Best,
Todd

--
Marine Wireless
http://www.marinewireless.us

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:09:43 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
The only 2400 Mhz RFI source on your boat is probably your microwave
oven at 2450 Mhz. There is no interference from 150W of HF through
the wireless.....LIKE THERE IS ON EVERY WIRE OF THE NMEA SYSTEM aboard
the boat. NMEA wiring cannot be effectively shielded as long as.....

You just take every opportunity for a rant about NMEA, don't you?

What rant? The truth is an unshielded RS-232 serial connection with
ground hooked to one side of the damned balanced line is a big
transmitter! Unshielded plastic crap has no business around an HF
receiver with any kind of a switching IC inside it.
Well....duhhhh....

I don't give a **** about your maximized profits in that plastic box.

Why would NMEA at 4800 baud produce more interference than a 100mbit network
on UTP (U=Unshielded)?

Well, duhhh.....Lemme see....we have a 4800Hz square wave...so
starting at the fundamental frequency of 4.8Khz, a square wave (just
pretend it's not data for a minute) has an odd harmonic every 4.8Khz
from 4.8Khz to....well....30 Mhz, easy?

Hmm...100mbit is 100 Mhz. So, there's a carrier buzz around the upper
end of the FM band....then there's that 3rd harmonic at 300 Mhz, way
above Channel 16, as it were....well? Duhh....

Of course, the wireless network equipment is all built to FCC
SPECIFICATIONS (i.e. Type Accepted, Class B Computing Device?) and is
SHIELDED to pass?.....well, duhhhh... 2400 Mhz isn't gonna tear up
anything on our boat. Will it yours?

NONE of the plastic boxes the damned cheap marine crap comes in is
shielded in the first
place against the HF transmitter or your 5W walkie talkie on deck.

Another one: It is NOT necessary to put electronics in a shielded boax to be
EMC proof. It all depends on proper PCB layout. A lot of equipment in
plastic unshielded boxes carry FCC or CE approval. They don't get that
approval when the equipment is radiating like hell or going dead when keying
an SSB.

May we test your plastic box in the FCC Lab? I can make that
arrangement if you like..... Even if the damned thing had the most
rudimentary sprayed-on shielding like the monitor you're reading or
the computer sitting next to it, it would be an improvement. But,
then, of course, I'd want SHIELDED BALANCED WIRES in SHIELDED
CONNECTORS, next, wouldn't I.....not some damned fool screw terminals,
or worse yet spring terminals like B&G and Raymarine uses, as if we
were hooking up a student lab station in a grade school project.

You wanna SEE radiation, wait until those cheezy spring terminals
corrode against the copper wires making that great DIODE harmonic
generator! I've already found two!

Whatever happened to those nice metal, waterproof, shielded connectors
with all the wires INSIDE the shield, instead of hangin' out the end
of a cheap plastic cable with a little tab labeled NMEA (+)?


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:49:10 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

Larry and Todd:

It's not quite so simple -- take a look at
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/portland800.jpg.

The page cannot be found

The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name
changed, or is temporarily unavailable.



Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is
spelled correctly.
Open the home page, and then look for links to the
information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.

HTTP 404 - File not found
Internet Information Services



Technical Information (for support personnel)

More information:

Microsoft Support..... Here's the answer to that problem...(c;


There are two w/t compartments on the main deck and six below, all possibly
with data, as well as tanks. The wheelhouse can also be separated by a w/t
door. (Remember that in The Perfect Storm movie, Andrea Gail flooded from
the wheelhouse. What really happened, we'll never know.)

But, through all those watertight bulkheads, there are wires going
through stuffing tubes, right? Are all the wires Navy style with
armored shields around them?

Maybe you guys are right -- that wireless would work fine -- certainly there
are a lot of openings in the bulkheads, although they're all small (2" tops)
and sealed with intumescent caulk to keep fire and flood in one place if
they happen -- AC, DC, H&C potable water, sal****er fire main, black and
gray water, compressed air, diesel, and all the information wires.

Oh, the memories. We did an electrical hazard inspection from Shop 51
CNSYD on the USS Saratoga, the old CV in Jacksonville. My God, what a
mess she was. 64,000 electrical hits, 29,000 of them Class 1 (must be
fixed before restarting the inspection). After two of our tiger team
got hurt reaching up into wireways to trace cables they couldn't see,
the team leader forbad anyone reaching up into any space he couldn't
see his hand in. 440VAC, 400Hz bites HARD! Shake a wireway and
sparks shot out all over! Hot wires just layin' up in there!

The main electrical feeds go down through the voids on either side of
the ship. We traced these big 3phase wires to a bulkhead but they
just disappeared on the other side. We found a void noone ever cut a
hatch into! The shipfitters cut a hole in it big enough for an
inspection hatch and we found three cables, about #0000, DANGLING FROM
THE STUFFING TUBES for a length of over 35'! The ship motion had
swayed them back and forth, banging them against the bulkheads and
wrenching the cables where they went through the stuffing tubes until
the bare conductors were breaking apart! All this from the last yard
period about 2 years previous. Someone forgot to tie them up and
install an inspection hatch! NAVSEA was horrified....(c;

The whole inspection was because of that cruiser that caught fire off
Lebanon way back in the early 80's and the fire followed the wiring
through open, unpacked collars from compartment to compartment. On
Saratoga, alone, we ran Florida, Georgia and South Carolina suppliers
out of TempSeal to pack them with. Some collars on that carrier are
36" wide by 8-10" high with only a couple of cable running through
them!

Poor Sara....many she rest in peace.

Oh, another fun discovery before I quit.

I opened up the fan room that provides fresh air for Central Control,
the engineering space where they control all the propulsion from. The
huge fan in there puts a big vacuum on this compartment, which gets
its intake up a shaft alley under the flight deck. There was a
thermostat in there to measure incoming air temperature in the
compartment. The capillary tube for this thermostat went through the
deck through a FOUR INCH HOLE someone had cut out with a torch, then
they dropped the tube down into the compartment below.

I got the chief engineer and showed him this hole. "Commander, look
down through that hole and tell me what you see.", I requested. "I
see some big piece of equipment.", he replied. "We thought so, too.
IT'S THE TOP OF THE #2 BOILER! How many people in Central Control
will die if that boiler explodes or leaks combustion fumes sucked up
by that fan?", I asked, politely. He never answered, running out of
the compartment to find the idiot who torched that hole.....Boy he was
****ED!

Question then, given that running wire is really easy, because we'll have
the conduit for phone, burglar, fire alarm, audio, etc. anyway (sure, maybe
all of these can be wireless also, but there are some security issues,
etc.), am I better off with wired or wireless? If Larry's right and 802.11
will really reject everything that it might meet, is it a more robust
installation to go wireless? This assumes that all of the primary stuff on
the bridge is wired -- we're talking about personal computers (in the
broader sense of the words) and a couple of non-critical remote readouts
here.

Naw, in your application, I'd make sure it was all wired. I agree
with the other posters hard wires should be the primary feed for
data.....however, wouldn't it be nice to be able to see that oil
pressure on the #1 engine that faltered and our current course and
speed from the notebook in your cabin?.....(c; Or the PDA in your
pocket?

None of this will go in until we get her on this side of the pond next
summer (God willing). I'd be delighted to try it sometime after then....

Good luck to you. Give us a better URL. I'd like to have a look.



Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

I found all the pictures. What a beautiful project!

Why would anyone with a great-running Lister diesel one couldn't wear
out in a lifetime, ever think about replacing it with a truck engine
bound to die? God will get you for that, some day.....

What a beautiful engine. 750 RPM. Who could wear that out?! Just
leave it idle if you don't want to crank it!....(c;

Thump......Thump......Thump......Thump......What's idle, 80 RPM?



Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:09:43 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:
You just take every opportunity for a rant about NMEA, don't you?

What rant? The truth is an unshielded RS-232 serial connection with
ground hooked to one side of the damned balanced line is a big
transmitter! Unshielded plastic crap has no business around an HF
receiver with any kind of a switching IC inside it.
Well....duhhhh....

That is nonsense. It all depends on proper PCB design. I HAVE measured it,
for crying out loud!

Why would NMEA at 4800 baud produce more interference than a 100mbit
network
on UTP (U=Unshielded)?

Well, duhhh.....Lemme see....we have a 4800Hz square wave...so
starting at the fundamental frequency of 4.8Khz, a square wave (just
pretend it's not data for a minute) has an odd harmonic every 4.8Khz
from 4.8Khz to....well....30 Mhz, easy?

You were talking about interference on 2400MHz, right? Apart from that, have
you ever heard of slew rate? A properly filtered 4800 baud output has
filters on it, which just cuts off any higher harmonics that can be
dangerous. So even with a single wire hooked up to the NMEA output, it can
be silent on HF.

Hmm...100mbit is 100 Mhz. So, there's a carrier buzz around the upper
end of the FM band....then there's that 3rd harmonic at 300 Mhz, way
above Channel 16, as it were....well? Duhh....

Of course, the wireless network equipment is all built to FCC
SPECIFICATIONS (i.e. Type Accepted, Class B Computing Device?) and is
SHIELDED to pass?.....well, duhhhh... 2400 Mhz isn't gonna tear up
anything on our boat. Will it yours?

Nope.

NONE of the plastic boxes the damned cheap marine crap comes in is
shielded in the first
place against the HF transmitter or your 5W walkie talkie on deck.

Yes. Tried it. 15Watts of VHF against the box didn't hurt it. We tested up
to 12V/m (that is above the required limits of IEC945) and it kept on
working.

May we test your plastic box in the FCC Lab? I can make that
arrangement if you like.....

Please be my guest.

Meindert

Thanks.

As I say on site, the Lister is a real conundrum. I love the thing. It
will run forever, even on three cylinders. Absolutely rock solid
dependable. It has three ways of cooling (three pumps have to fail to shut
it down) and two ways of providing lube oil pressure, can run either wet or
dry sump. It has a nice sound. It has temp gauges on every cylinder -- full
instrumentation both below and in the wheelhouse. I have an exhaust valve
sitting on my desk -- 3.5" diameter x 10" tall. It's a wonder.

To start it, you go down in the engine room, turn on the lube oil (remote
dry sump), the seawater main, and the 24v to the starter, spin a wheel on
the front to decompress, bar the flywheel over a couple of times to make
sure everything's free, and push a button on the "Motormatic" box. Relays
start clicking, the prelube pump (24v) starts, and oil pressure comes up.
When oil pressure hits 50psi, the starter engages. After a quarter turn or
so, you spin off the decompress and it starts. The prelube pump stops. You
turn off the 24v to the starter and let it warm up for a few minutes. You
can shut it down from the wheelhouse, but you have to go down and shut off
the lube oil.

Now, this is a wonderful sequence, particularly the Motormatic (in this age
of computer everything), but can you imagine trying to sell it as a yacht
over here in fifteen years?

It has a number of little open catch basins for fuel that leaks off. It's
hard mounted to huge engine beds, so the whole boat vibrates when it's
running -- four huge pistons, and while you can practically count the
strokes, they're very present. The official RN manual says that you
shouldn't run the boat between 7.5 and 10 knots, only faster or slower (top
is 10.3), because of various resonances. Parts are beginning to be a problem
(new starter $4,000).

And, as also shown graphically on the site, it's huge (see
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/erplan800.png) -- the Cat 3406 is no little
thing, but look at the difference. While the engine room is 20 feet square,
I've got a lot to go in it and removing the Lister helps.

And so forth. I'm sad, though. I'll miss it, except when trying to sleep.




--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
I found all the pictures. What a beautiful project!

Why would anyone with a great-running Lister diesel one couldn't wear
out in a lifetime, ever think about replacing it with a truck engine
bound to die? God will get you for that, some day.....

What a beautiful engine. 750 RPM. Who could wear that out?! Just
leave it idle if you don't want to crank it!....(c;

Thump......Thump......Thump......Thump......What's idle, 80 RPM?



Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 10:08:42 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:


That is nonsense. It all depends on proper PCB design. I HAVE measured it,
for crying out loud!

Gee, the manufacturers that HAVE to pass FCC specs on radiation don't
know that. They spend lots of money coating cases, using metal
cabinets, and other shielding. You should go into consulting. Organ
manufacturers would love to put out digital organs and keyboards
without having to coat the whole thing in tin foil and expensive
shielded boxes with foil shielded data lines to pass the FCC tests.

Why would NMEA at 4800 baud produce more interference than a 100mbit
network
on UTP (U=Unshielded)?

Well, duhhh.....Lemme see....we have a 4800Hz square wave...so
starting at the fundamental frequency of 4.8Khz, a square wave (just
pretend it's not data for a minute) has an odd harmonic every 4.8Khz
from 4.8Khz to....well....30 Mhz, easy?

You were talking about interference on 2400MHz, right? Apart from that, have
you ever heard of slew rate? A properly filtered 4800 baud output has
filters on it, which just cuts off any higher harmonics that can be
dangerous. So even with a single wire hooked up to the NMEA output, it can
be silent on HF.

Whoa, sport! Your attack on me was about 4800 baud NMEA and it
RADIATES LIKE HELL into the HF on every boat I know of because of the
way you manufacturers treat the interconnects, dangling the 4800 baud
pulses out there in unshielded space. Quit sidestepping the issue.
Unshielded 4800 baud data has no place around a submicrovolt HF
receiver within a few feet of its receiving antenna....


AS with consumer electronics, until the regulators step in to force
the manufacturers to conform to some sort of radiation standard,
nothing will change. We'll all still receive expensive new equipment
with data wires dangling out open to hook to the cheap terminals on
the unshielded plastic boxes......



Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:02:07 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

To start it, you go down in the engine room, turn on the lube oil (remote
dry sump), the seawater main, and the 24v to the starter, spin a wheel on
the front to decompress, bar the flywheel over a couple of times to make
sure everything's free, and push a button on the "Motormatic" box. Relays
start clicking, the prelube pump (24v) starts, and oil pressure comes up.
When oil pressure hits 50psi, the starter engages. After a quarter turn or
so, you spin off the decompress and it starts. The prelube pump stops. You
turn off the 24v to the starter and let it warm up for a few minutes. You
can shut it down from the wheelhouse, but you have to go down and shut off
the lube oil.

Wow...prelubing. That thing never runs at all without oil. No wonder
the ones 70 years old are still pumping! Thanks for the procedure.
Very interesting. Your new diesel will be simple. Flip the switch,
Crank the starter and wait while the bare metal scrapes against each
other until the oil pressure rises 10 seconds later. Sounds
"temporary" doesn't it? No wonder the overhaul shop is packed...(c;

Now, this is a wonderful sequence, particularly the Motormatic (in this age
of computer everything), but can you imagine trying to sell it as a yacht
over here in fifteen years?

I'm amazed at the automation. I have visions of a 16mm training film
for Lister engineers showing this neatly dressed narrator in his 1934
double-breasted suit pointing out how "Motormatic takes the work out
of starting it."

I can see you'd have to find a diehard diesel kinda guy to buy
it...It's a "manly thing"....

It has a number of little open catch basins for fuel that leaks off. It's
hard mounted to huge engine beds, so the whole boat vibrates when it's
running -- four huge pistons, and while you can practically count the
strokes, they're very present. The official RN manual says that you
shouldn't run the boat between 7.5 and 10 knots, only faster or slower (top
is 10.3), because of various resonances. Parts are beginning to be a problem
(new starter $4,000).

I have a ham radio friend who is master of SeaLand "Performance", a
Dutch-made 950' containership. Performance has a very interesting
diesel power plant, 7 cylinders, 38,800HP at 110 RPM, 2-stroke, forced
air loop charging. She's about 3 decks high. The cylinders are about
5' in diameter with a 12' stroke. I couldn't pick up the spare
injector..(c; She's totally computer controlled! The duty engineer
has no need of being in the engine room. The computer will page him
on his pocket pager if it detects something it doesn't like. Each
injection is computer controlled for best combustion at this throttle
setting in each cylinder. It has no transmission or reduction gear.
The output shaft, which goes over the main generator room's massive
power plants to run all the refridgeration containers on deck, goes
directly to the single screw. A picture of the screw in drydock shows
his wife standing at the base of a blade that's about three times as
tall as she is. The screw is huge!

On the engineer's board in the air conditioned control room with
windows overlooking the engine gallery, there is a warning sign "DO
NOT OPERATE BETWEEN 32 AND 38 RPM". This is the resonant frequency of
the ship and engine. They run up through here very rapidly and never
operate from 30 to 40 RPM because the engine pulses will rip the hull
apart when the whole thing resonates with the engine going one way and
the hull the other.

Starting is simple. Push the throttle ahead to the position you like.
6000 PSI of compressed air is injected into the proper cylinder just
past TDC and #2 diesel fuel sprays into the pressure. The ensuing
explosion cranks it as the computer watches on. The compressed air
injection stops as the cylinders start firing on their own from just
the compression. The computer automatically turns on all the blowers,
etc., by itself. Once the engine exhaust comes up to BOIL the bunker
oil (one grade above Bunker 'C'), the computer switches the injection
over from the expensive #2 home heating oil to the boiling bunker oil
that was too thick to inject a little while ago. Now she settles in
and at econocruise only burns 75 tons of bunker oil a day to get to
Europe.

To reverse, pull the throttle back into reverse and the computer goes
back to air injection to blast the engine into reverse. Of course,
the 2-stroker will run equally well in both directions. Larry says he
can do an emergency stop from econocruise in....well....a while.
Takes a lot of power to stop all that mass in those boxes...

She'll come about in about 2 and a half miles! How's that for a high
speed turn?

He's been a master for many years. "You never get tired of playing
with it.", he tells me. It was a most impressive tour. I'd love to
see it running some day. He says the thumping is quite loud in there,
something like a diesel pile driver running.

And, as also shown graphically on the site, it's huge (see
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/erplan800.png) -- the Cat 3406 is no little
thing, but look at the difference. While the engine room is 20 feet square,
I've got a lot to go in it and removing the Lister helps.

Sorta makes you wonder what Cat left out.....metal?

And so forth. I'm sad, though. I'll miss it, except when trying to sleep.

I'll bet if its thumping varies, you wake right up, too.....

Thanks for the information and your thoughts/story. Great website.


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

I think the Cat is the wrong direction for your personality. I sense
that you are a gadget freak like me. Here is the repower option for
certain engine nervana. :-)

http://www.thesandpebbles.com/san_pa...blo_engine.htm

Jim Woodward wrote:

Thanks.

As I say on site, the Lister is a real conundrum. I love the thing. It
will run forever, even on three cylinders. Absolutely rock solid
dependable. It has three ways of cooling (three pumps have to fail to shut
it down) and two ways of providing lube oil pressure, can run either wet or
dry sump. It has a nice sound. It has temp gauges on every cylinder -- full
instrumentation both below and in the wheelhouse. I have an exhaust valve
sitting on my desk -- 3.5" diameter x 10" tall. It's a wonder.

To start it, you go down in the engine room, turn on the lube oil (remote
dry sump), the seawater main, and the 24v to the starter, spin a wheel on
the front to decompress, bar the flywheel over a couple of times to make
sure everything's free, and push a button on the "Motormatic" box. Relays
start clicking, the prelube pump (24v) starts, and oil pressure comes up.
When oil pressure hits 50psi, the starter engages. After a quarter turn or
so, you spin off the decompress and it starts. The prelube pump stops. You
turn off the 24v to the starter and let it warm up for a few minutes. You
can shut it down from the wheelhouse, but you have to go down and shut off
the lube oil.

Now, this is a wonderful sequence, particularly the Motormatic (in this age
of computer everything), but can you imagine trying to sell it as a yacht
over here in fifteen years?

It has a number of little open catch basins for fuel that leaks off. It's
hard mounted to huge engine beds, so the whole boat vibrates when it's
running -- four huge pistons, and while you can practically count the
strokes, they're very present. The official RN manual says that you
shouldn't run the boat between 7.5 and 10 knots, only faster or slower (top
is 10.3), because of various resonances. Parts are beginning to be a problem
(new starter $4,000).

And, as also shown graphically on the site, it's huge (see
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/erplan800.png) -- the Cat 3406 is no little
thing, but look at the difference. While the engine room is 20 feet square,
I've got a lot to go in it and removing the Lister helps.

And so forth. I'm sad, though. I'll miss it, except when trying to sleep.





--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Thanks again.

One can install pre-lube on anything, and I probably will.

The CAT weighs around 4,200 pounds with gear, versus 12,000 for the Lister.
No one would call 4,200 pounds for 400hp a lightweight engine. I should add
that 400hp (which we may never use) is the "run flat out until you have to
change the oil" rating. The same block is available in various ratings up
to 800hp.

I don't think your friend's ship's engine uses 6000psi air to start. That
would be 16,000,000 pounds thrust on the 5' piston. 60-100psi or so would
be more typical of the air starts I've seen.

I've always like air start (that is, with valves -- not an air operated
starter motor) as it seemed elegant to use the pistons themselves, rather
than this little electric motor. I also like the fact that on vessels
smaller than your friend's, you can often hand crank a compressor to do a
dead ship start. (Fintry does this with a spring starter on the Perkins
6-354 that used to be a genset and now will be an hydraulic power pack -- it
has an electric starter also). Of course you have to have a separate valve
train for air, so it's probably more complicated than an electric starter,
even if you count the batteries and alternator. On a big engine, though, you
don't have much choice.

If you ever get a chance, go aboard one of the Liberty ships, or any of the
old triple expansion steamers -- the third cylinder is enormous.....



--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:02:07 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

To start it, you go down in the engine room, turn on the lube oil (remote
dry sump), the seawater main, and the 24v to the starter, spin a wheel
on
the front to decompress, bar the flywheel over a couple of times to make
sure everything's free, and push a button on the "Motormatic" box.
Relays
start clicking, the prelube pump (24v) starts, and oil pressure comes up.
When oil pressure hits 50psi, the starter engages. After a quarter turn
or
so, you spin off the decompress and it starts. The prelube pump stops.
You
turn off the 24v to the starter and let it warm up for a few minutes. You
can shut it down from the wheelhouse, but you have to go down and shut
off
the lube oil.

Wow...prelubing. That thing never runs at all without oil. No wonder
the ones 70 years old are still pumping! Thanks for the procedure.
Very interesting. Your new diesel will be simple. Flip the switch,
Crank the starter and wait while the bare metal scrapes against each
other until the oil pressure rises 10 seconds later. Sounds
"temporary" doesn't it? No wonder the overhaul shop is packed...(c;

Now, this is a wonderful sequence, particularly the Motormatic (in this
age
of computer everything), but can you imagine trying to sell it as a yacht
over here in fifteen years?

I'm amazed at the automation. I have visions of a 16mm training film
for Lister engineers showing this neatly dressed narrator in his 1934
double-breasted suit pointing out how "Motormatic takes the work out
of starting it."

I can see you'd have to find a diehard diesel kinda guy to buy
it...It's a "manly thing"....

It has a number of little open catch basins for fuel that leaks off.
It's
hard mounted to huge engine beds, so the whole boat vibrates when it's
running -- four huge pistons, and while you can practically count the
strokes, they're very present. The official RN manual says that you
shouldn't run the boat between 7.5 and 10 knots, only faster or slower
(top
is 10.3), because of various resonances. Parts are beginning to be a
problem
(new starter $4,000).

I have a ham radio friend who is master of SeaLand "Performance", a
Dutch-made 950' containership. Performance has a very interesting
diesel power plant, 7 cylinders, 38,800HP at 110 RPM, 2-stroke, forced
air loop charging. She's about 3 decks high. The cylinders are about
5' in diameter with a 12' stroke. I couldn't pick up the spare
injector..(c; She's totally computer controlled! The duty engineer
has no need of being in the engine room. The computer will page him
on his pocket pager if it detects something it doesn't like. Each
injection is computer controlled for best combustion at this throttle
setting in each cylinder. It has no transmission or reduction gear.
The output shaft, which goes over the main generator room's massive
power plants to run all the refridgeration containers on deck, goes
directly to the single screw. A picture of the screw in drydock shows
his wife standing at the base of a blade that's about three times as
tall as she is. The screw is huge!

On the engineer's board in the air conditioned control room with
windows overlooking the engine gallery, there is a warning sign "DO
NOT OPERATE BETWEEN 32 AND 38 RPM". This is the resonant frequency of
the ship and engine. They run up through here very rapidly and never
operate from 30 to 40 RPM because the engine pulses will rip the hull
apart when the whole thing resonates with the engine going one way and
the hull the other.

Starting is simple. Push the throttle ahead to the position you like.
6000 PSI of compressed air is injected into the proper cylinder just
past TDC and #2 diesel fuel sprays into the pressure. The ensuing
explosion cranks it as the computer watches on. The compressed air
injection stops as the cylinders start firing on their own from just
the compression. The computer automatically turns on all the blowers,
etc., by itself. Once the engine exhaust comes up to BOIL the bunker
oil (one grade above Bunker 'C'), the computer switches the injection
over from the expensive #2 home heating oil to the boiling bunker oil
that was too thick to inject a little while ago. Now she settles in
and at econocruise only burns 75 tons of bunker oil a day to get to
Europe.

To reverse, pull the throttle back into reverse and the computer goes
back to air injection to blast the engine into reverse. Of course,
the 2-stroker will run equally well in both directions. Larry says he
can do an emergency stop from econocruise in....well....a while.
Takes a lot of power to stop all that mass in those boxes...

She'll come about in about 2 and a half miles! How's that for a high
speed turn?

He's been a master for many years. "You never get tired of playing
with it.", he tells me. It was a most impressive tour. I'd love to
see it running some day. He says the thumping is quite loud in there,
something like a diesel pile driver running.

And, as also shown graphically on the site, it's huge (see
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/erplan800.png) -- the Cat 3406 is no little
thing, but look at the difference. While the engine room is 20 feet
square,
I've got a lot to go in it and removing the Lister helps.

Sorta makes you wonder what Cat left out.....metal?

And so forth. I'm sad, though. I'll miss it, except when trying to
sleep.

I'll bet if its thumping varies, you wake right up, too.....

Thanks for the information and your thoughts/story. Great website.


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"