"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is
under $15 retail nowadays.

You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and
needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack.
You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an
instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the
memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of
numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine
instruments.

Meindert

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:33 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
.. .
The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is
under $15 retail nowadays.

You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and
needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack.
You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an
instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the
memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of
numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine
instruments.

Meindert

I do get the point. A PIC-12 microcontroller (0.20 USD?) couldn't
handle the stack, but it wouldn't run most instruments either. If you
are spending, say 5 USD for the controller and memory, an incremental
increase in clock speed and memory, say 0.50, would easily accommodate
it. But not 15 year old parts.

I still think the long product cycle and small volume are the
determining factors, not the present day cost of the technology.

If a company as big as Furuno, already conscious of the value of
ethernet, sees a competitive advantage in adding it to existing
equipment, it will depend on what the current processor inside a
particular instrument is.

If the processor architecture is a still-developing family, they may
be able to add TCP/IP without changing the board design or the
firmware significantly. If it is some antique, like the 8085s I found
in some instruments (networked, BTW) on a boat I bought used in 1989,
It would probably require a total redesign, and they wouldn't do it
until such redesign is happening for other reasons.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music."

On 2005-02-02 17:17:29 +1100, "Meindert Sprang"
said:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
How many NMEA serial port versions have there been? First we played the
data speed game. Then we "expanded" the protocol instructions.

What's your point? This has happened with ethernet as well (coax, twisted
pair, 10,100 and 1000Mbit...)

Meindert

Don't forget industry consolidation too! Simrad bought out Navico,
support for Navico POOF. Try to get support for that brand now! B&G
users please take note.

That's why when I chucked out my Navico GPS and autopilot I went with
Raymarine!

It is a fact that technology is accellerating and if you need to stay
at the bleeding edge you pay a price. Sometimes it is worth it but I
fear most times it is not. Marketing departments are there to create a
need, often when none exists ;-) I know as I spent 25 years in sales
and marketing in the IT & T sector. Now talk about bleeding bloody edge
.....

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

On 2005-02-03 06:50:16 +1100, Rodney Myrvaagnes said:

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:33 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is
under $15 retail nowadays.

You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and
needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack.
You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an
instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the
memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of
numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine
instruments.

Meindert

I do get the point. A PIC-12 microcontroller (0.20 USD?) couldn't
handle the stack, but it wouldn't run most instruments either. If you
are spending, say 5 USD for the controller and memory, an incremental
increase in clock speed and memory, say 0.50, would easily accommodate
it. But not 15 year old parts.

I still think the long product cycle and small volume are the
determining factors, not the present day cost of the technology.

If a company as big as Furuno, already conscious of the value of
ethernet, sees a competitive advantage in adding it to existing
equipment, it will depend on what the current processor inside a
particular instrument is.

If the processor architecture is a still-developing family, they may
be able to add TCP/IP without changing the board design or the
firmware significantly. If it is some antique, like the 8085s I found
in some instruments (networked, BTW) on a boat I bought used in 1989,
It would probably require a total redesign, and they wouldn't do it
until such redesign is happening for other reasons.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music."

See my previous post on CAN bus implementation. If ethernet is so damn
ubiquitous and so cheap why the hell has it not taken over the factory
floor or the automotive industry? Yes there are a small number of
ethernet devices which support process automation but not many. Horses
for courses and TCP/IP is not it for the marine environment except for
the military who can do anything with your tax dollars ;-)

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005020307142075249%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-02-03 06:50:16 +1100, Rodney Myrvaagnes
said:

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:33 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is
under $15 retail nowadays.

You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device
and
needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP
stack.
You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an
instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have
the
memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a
matter of
numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine
instruments.

Meindert

I do get the point. A PIC-12 microcontroller (0.20 USD?) couldn't
handle the stack, but it wouldn't run most instruments either. If you
are spending, say 5 USD for the controller and memory, an incremental
increase in clock speed and memory, say 0.50, would easily accommodate
it. But not 15 year old parts.

I still think the long product cycle and small volume are the
determining factors, not the present day cost of the technology.

If a company as big as Furuno, already conscious of the value of
ethernet, sees a competitive advantage in adding it to existing
equipment, it will depend on what the current processor inside a
particular instrument is.

If the processor architecture is a still-developing family, they may
be able to add TCP/IP without changing the board design or the
firmware significantly. If it is some antique, like the 8085s I found
in some instruments (networked, BTW) on a boat I bought used in 1989,
It would probably require a total redesign, and they wouldn't do it
until such redesign is happening for other reasons.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36
Gjo/a

"Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music."

See my previous post on CAN bus implementation. If ethernet is so damn
ubiquitous and so cheap why the hell has it not taken over the factory
floor or the automotive industry? Yes there are a small number of ethernet
devices which support process automation but not many. Horses for courses
and TCP/IP is not it for the marine environment except for the military
who can do anything with your tax dollars ;-)

Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive
industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time
use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime
apps, but other protocols are better suited.

Doug
s/v Callista

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in news:Bqidnb-
:

Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive
industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time
use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime
apps, but other protocols are better suited.

Doug
s/v Callista


It hasn't "done well" in cars for the same reason it hasn't been done in
boats.....proprietary obsolescence!

I've never been on the factory floor and never intend to go, either.

Do factories put up with this proprietary bull****, too?

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:

I know that Larry, but the devices I mentioned, do not even have
Navnet, just plain NMEA.....
Navnet AKA ethernet adds so much cost to a device that you only see it
on the chartplotters and multifunction units that already cost a few
couple of grand. And you can see that with all manufacturers. If
ethernet was really that cheap, why wouldn't all manufacturers have
already equipped all of their products with ethernet?

Meindert


Ah, but your challenge to the poster was to quote these items on Ethernet.
The poster was talking about large commercial ships, which have lots of
Ethernet things, now, from the communications devices back to the company
to the engine control room.

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in news:Bqidnb-
:

Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive
industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time
use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime
apps, but other protocols are better suited.

Doug
s/v Callista


It hasn't "done well" in cars for the same reason it hasn't been done in
boats.....proprietary obsolescence!

Wrong.

I've never been on the factory floor and never intend to go, either.

Wrong.

Do factories put up with this proprietary bull****, too?

Yes.

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in news:Bqidnb-
:

Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive
industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time
use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime
apps, but other protocols are better suited.

Doug
s/v Callista


It hasn't "done well" in cars for the same reason it hasn't been done in
boats.....proprietary obsolescence!

Nonsense. In cars, CAN is used. For CAN, highly integrated chips are
available for, for instance, a mirror controller: a single chip with CAN
interface and high power outputs to drive the motor. All protocol stuff is
inside this chip. Such simple solutions do not exist with ethernet.

I've never been on the factory floor and never intend to go, either.

And on factory floors, there's a lot of FieldBus, Modbus etc, all serial
RS-485. At the toplevels where timing is not critical, ethernet is used for
collecting data to be displayed and for transport of other non-time critical
data.

Do factories put up with this proprietary bull****, too?

No. Modbus and Fieldbus are well documented protocols, open to anyone who
wants to use it.

Meindert

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:
Ah, but your challenge to the poster was to quote these items on Ethernet.
The poster was talking about large commercial ships, which have lots of
Ethernet things, now, from the communications devices back to the company
to the engine control room.

I know that too. Mostly Modbus or Fieldbus over either serial or ethernet.
But even there, the smallest devices only have serial interfaces.So a lot of
money goes into the serial to ethernet converters.

Meindert