Hi all,

I've seen quite a few posts on this subject, and would like to add my
$.02.

About 10 years ago, I was involved in the design of a telemetry device
that used NiCADs for backup (up to 23 hrs.). I was deeply concerned
about the charge/discharge of these, so my boss, who was an ex-VP for
GE, tracked down the NiCAD guru at Gates. When asked about "memory",
this guru stated, unequivocally, that the "memory" effect was somewhat
of an urban legend, promulgated by the difficulties NiCADs presented
when initially developed somewhere around WW2. Modern battery
manufacturing designs and techniques in the last few decades or so
have totally eliminated the "memory" effect

Last I checked, one of these telemetry devices was still running OK,
even though it was installed over 8 years ago. Granted, I have no
idea if it's **ever** actually used it's battery backup, but I have to
assume that sometime in it's life it has been unplugged for at least a
little while.

No troll, no flame wars please. I'm just passing on some info.

SS

Well, here is an item that reinforces the myth: My 18V NiCad drill came
with a charger that has a "Battery Conditioning" button. The
instructions say that every 6 to 8 recharges I should press the button
to restore the original capacity of the battery pack. My top of the
line MaHa NiMh/NiCD charger has a similar button with the same
instructions. The MaHa/Powerex instructions go on to say that new NiMH
batteries must go through 4 or 5 complete drain cycles before they will
store their full capacity and that I could do that by pressing the
"condition" button. The charger would then drain the batteries before
starting the charge.

Sure sounds like a cure for "memory loss" to me.


Sir Spamalot wrote:

Hi all,

I've seen quite a few posts on this subject, and would like to add my
$.02.

About 10 years ago, I was involved in the design of a telemetry device
that used NiCADs for backup (up to 23 hrs.). I was deeply concerned
about the charge/discharge of these, so my boss, who was an ex-VP for
GE, tracked down the NiCAD guru at Gates. When asked about "memory",
this guru stated, unequivocally, that the "memory" effect was somewhat
of an urban legend, promulgated by the difficulties NiCADs presented
when initially developed somewhere around WW2. Modern battery
manufacturing designs and techniques in the last few decades or so
have totally eliminated the "memory" effect

Last I checked, one of these telemetry devices was still running OK,
even though it was installed over 8 years ago. Granted, I have no
idea if it's **ever** actually used it's battery backup, but I have to
assume that sometime in it's life it has been unplugged for at least a
little while.

No troll, no flame wars please. I'm just passing on some info.

SS


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

I bought a camcorder several years ago. I asked about the memory
effect of the NiCd batteries. The salesperson said that the memory affect
is a myth. During the time I owned the camera I always put it on
charge after using it. Never noticed any loss of capacity. Maybe it is
just certain brands or types of NiCds.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:wE7Ac.906$4n.607@lakeread04...
Well, here is an item that reinforces the myth: My 18V NiCad drill came
with a charger that has a "Battery Conditioning" button. The
instructions say that every 6 to 8 recharges I should press the button
to restore the original capacity of the battery pack. My top of the
line MaHa NiMh/NiCD charger has a similar button with the same
instructions. The MaHa/Powerex instructions go on to say that new NiMH
batteries must go through 4 or 5 complete drain cycles before they will
store their full capacity and that I could do that by pressing the
"condition" button. The charger would then drain the batteries before
starting the charge.

Sure sounds like a cure for "memory loss" to me.


Sir Spamalot wrote:

Hi all,

I've seen quite a few posts on this subject, and would like to add my
$.02.

About 10 years ago, I was involved in the design of a telemetry device
that used NiCADs for backup (up to 23 hrs.). I was deeply concerned
about the charge/discharge of these, so my boss, who was an ex-VP for
GE, tracked down the NiCAD guru at Gates. When asked about "memory",
this guru stated, unequivocally, that the "memory" effect was somewhat
of an urban legend, promulgated by the difficulties NiCADs presented
when initially developed somewhere around WW2. Modern battery
manufacturing designs and techniques in the last few decades or so
have totally eliminated the "memory" effect

Last I checked, one of these telemetry devices was still running OK,
even though it was installed over 8 years ago. Granted, I have no
idea if it's **ever** actually used it's battery backup, but I have to
assume that sometime in it's life it has been unplugged for at least a
little while.

No troll, no flame wars please. I'm just passing on some info.

SS


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

OK, so there's no memory effect. But, why do I have to regularly change out
the rechargeable batteries of my cordless phones, dustbuster, laptop,
electric toothbrush, flashlight, ect.?
1,000 recharge cycles? ........rubbish!

Because you leave them on simple trickle chargers long term, which causes little
whisker crystals called dendrites to form inside the battery and short it
out internally. I get a heck of a lot of recharge cycles out my rechargeables.
I use smart chargers that just about shutdown (go way below "trickle") when
the battery is charged.

--
Chuck Tribolet

http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.


"Floyd I Johnson" wrote in message . ..
OK, so there's no memory effect. But, why do I have to regularly change out
the rechargeable batteries of my cordless phones, dustbuster, laptop,
electric toothbrush, flashlight, ect.?
1,000 recharge cycles? ........rubbish!

"Chuck Tribolet" wrote in message
...
Because you leave them on simple trickle chargers long term, which causes
little
whisker crystals called dendrites to form inside the battery and short it
out internally. I get a heck of a lot of recharge cycles out my
rechargeables.
I use smart chargers that just about shutdown (go way below "trickle")
when
the battery is charged.

--
Chuck Tribolet


I believe that, as the crystalline area grows, it obscures the usable plate
area, which is what causes the "memory" effect. I read some recent research
(which I now can't find) where new cells were put through a careful charge
and then a deep discharge cycle. Then, the cells were deliberately
overcharged. Instant loss of capacity; the "memory" effect instantly
duplicated. OTOH, another group of new cells were put through many shallow
discharge cycles, with careful recharging. Result, no memory effect. Then,
with one overcharge cycle, the memory effect was now there.

Seems to confirm the concept of "memory", it's just that the culprit is the
charge profile, not the discharge portion. And that means that dumb
"trickle" chargers are really cell killers; we need to use smart chargers
exclusively.

I wonder if NiMH chemistry shows the same effect?

Ed
wb6wsn

,
Seems to confirm the concept of "memory", it's just that the culprit is
the
charge profile, not the discharge portion. And that means that dumb
"trickle" chargers are really cell killers; we need to use smart chargers
exclusively.

I wonder if NiMH chemistry shows the same effect?

I have a laptop that I left connected to the charger all the time, and after
about a year the battery capacity dropped to about 2 minutes run time. I
think it has the lithium ion battery. I would have thought that with a $160
battery they would have designed a charger with a tiny trickle, but maybe
not.

"Ed Price" wrote in
news:0CxAc.24993$0z6.18587@fed1read07:


I wonder if NiMH chemistry shows the same effect?

Ed
wb6wsn



Nope. Why anyone would STILL be using NiCd batteries remains a mystery to
me. Even my Garmin VHF HT has 2300 mAH NiMH batteries in it. They'll run
it a whole weekend, now, instead of the 5 hours it would run on the Garmin
cheapy NiCd crap that came with it. I'm using the same drop-in charger
with the 12V charging cord (has a regulator or resistor bauble that has a
green LED and gets warm while it's in the charger. Takes 2 days to recover
these monsters, the biggest NiMH 'AA' cells I could find.

I used to carry around alkaline battery-loaded Garmin packs for when the
rechargeable went dead. No longer an issue, now.

I dumped the batteries in my old Eagle GPS, too. It's running on 4 of the
NiMH 2300 mAH monsters. The battery meter shows about 2/3 of full voltage
because they are only 1.2V cells in a GPS made for alkalines. But, alas,
it reads 2/3 of full voltage for DAYS, not hours, now...(c;

NiCd batteries are always provided because they are DIRT CHEAP....It's
always about the profits.

Larry

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:44:50 GMT, "Floyd I Johnson"
wrote:

OK, so there's no memory effect. But, why do I have to regularly change out
the rechargeable batteries of my cordless phones, dustbuster, laptop,
electric toothbrush, flashlight, ect.?
1,000 recharge cycles? ........rubbish!



Because the chargers supplied with the consumer grade equipment is
improperly charging the batteries from the get-go. If they are
charged **correctly**, and discharged **correctly**, no memory.

And Larry is also right; the consumer buys into the "rechargable"
aspect without verifying if the battery is being charged correctly in
the first place.

For consumer equipment, I've noticed that overdischarging, which is a
major cause of failure for any rechargable battery, is ignored.

Does your dustbuster have an overdischarge shutoff? I bet not.

SS

They may have done the other BAD thing --- over-discharging.
When you run an NiCD pack DEAD flat, the weakest cell gets
reverse polarized, and that's death to that cell. One dead
cell means the pack is kaput.

--
Chuck Tribolet

http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.


"Ed Price" wrote in message news:0CxAc.24993$0z6.18587@fed1read07...

"Chuck Tribolet" wrote in message
...
Because you leave them on simple trickle chargers long term, which causes
little
whisker crystals called dendrites to form inside the battery and short it
out internally. I get a heck of a lot of recharge cycles out my
rechargeables.
I use smart chargers that just about shutdown (go way below "trickle")
when
the battery is charged.

--
Chuck Tribolet


I believe that, as the crystalline area grows, it obscures the usable plate
area, which is what causes the "memory" effect. I read some recent research
(which I now can't find) where new cells were put through a careful charge
and then a deep discharge cycle. Then, the cells were deliberately
overcharged. Instant loss of capacity; the "memory" effect instantly
duplicated. OTOH, another group of new cells were put through many shallow
discharge cycles, with careful recharging. Result, no memory effect. Then,
with one overcharge cycle, the memory effect was now there.

Seems to confirm the concept of "memory", it's just that the culprit is the
charge profile, not the discharge portion. And that means that dumb
"trickle" chargers are really cell killers; we need to use smart chargers
exclusively.

I wonder if NiMH chemistry shows the same effect?

Ed
wb6wsn