On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:06 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

A 50' or 75' whip would be a bit ungainly

================================

A lot of backstays on larger sailboats are that long. Definitely a
problem on a powerboat however.

A 50' to 75' whip on any boat would be a problem. A backstay
is not a whip.


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:39:06 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

A 50' or 75' whip would be a bit ungainly

================================

A lot of backstays on larger sailboats are that long. Definitely a
problem on a powerboat however.

Comments below.

"Chuck" wrote in message
link.net...
Doug, it's difficult to generalize but in many cases the radiation
resistance of a whip will be in the range of 20 to 35 ohms (assuming the
whip is a quarter-wave or somewhat shorter) and the ground resistance in
series with that may be another 25 ohms or so. What you get is a feedpoint
impedance of about 45 to 60 ohms (could be more or less) which will match
50 ohm coax very nicely without a tuner. Most transmitters will feed loads
of 25 to 100 ohms (2:1 swr) without complaining. For a short run of coax,
your total losses will probably be less than if you used a tuner.

Agreed.

It is true that you can only use such an antenna for a single marine or
ham band.

And as such is an inconvenient situation on a boat.

Even then, at the lower frequencies, you will experience a limited band of
frequencies that you can use without a tuner. On 8 MHz and above, you will
probably find that an antenna cut for the middle of the band will cover the
whole band nicely.

SOP for single band antennas unless one is interested in only a subsection
of the band in which case one cuts it for the center of the segment of
interest.

A lot of cruisers keep a 14 MHz "Hamstick" on board as an emergency
antenna they can use if their tuner fails or if (heaven forbid) they are
dis-masted and can't use their backstay antenna.

I have Hamsticks for 80, 40, 20, and 15M. They were my only antennas
for a long time before I insulated the backstay and got an SGC auto
tuner. I still hang on to the Hamsticks as backups though. When I got
another boat that already had a 23' whip, I found that it worked better
than the backstay on my previous boat, so I have stuck with it.

In an emergency you can check in to the Maritime Mobile Service Net on
14.300 MHz even if you're not a ham. It is one of the few frequencies
monitored almost continuously by experienced operators.

I have been checking into the MMSN for years now. Actually, the MMSN
is only in operation during certain hours (1200 to 2000 Eastern time). Other
nets are in operation during other hours (Coast Guard Net, InterCon, etc) In
an emergency you can check into anything anywhere.

The Hamstick is easy to store, easy to install, and once adjusted, should
be trouble-free. To switch bands, you switch Hamsticks. They even make a
quick-connect gizmo.

Been using them for years.

There are other makes as well. But if you don't use something like a
Hamstick, and just use a longer whip like a 16 foot whip, it will be good
for just one band. Actually, 16 feet is close to a quarter-wave on 20
meters so you may be able to use it as-is without a tuner on that band. If
you're not comfortable doing the hookup, find a local ham to advise you.
They're usually glad to help.

I am a local ham I help myself alot

Good luck!

Thanks!
Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

Hey there, Doug,

I guess I took your question of

How do you get away without a tuner?

too literally! Obviously you've been doing it for years.

73,

Chuck


Doug Dotson wrote:
Comments below.

"Chuck" wrote in message
link.net...

Doug, it's difficult to generalize but in many cases the radiation
resistance of a whip will be in the range of 20 to 35 ohms (assuming the
whip is a quarter-wave or somewhat shorter) and the ground resistance in
series with that may be another 25 ohms or so. What you get is a feedpoint
impedance of about 45 to 60 ohms (could be more or less) which will match
50 ohm coax very nicely without a tuner. Most transmitters will feed loads
of 25 to 100 ohms (2:1 swr) without complaining. For a short run of coax,
your total losses will probably be less than if you used a tuner.


Agreed.


It is true that you can only use such an antenna for a single marine or
ham band.


And as such is an inconvenient situation on a boat.


Even then, at the lower frequencies, you will experience a limited band of
frequencies that you can use without a tuner. On 8 MHz and above, you will
probably find that an antenna cut for the middle of the band will cover the
whole band nicely.


SOP for single band antennas unless one is interested in only a subsection
of the band in which case one cuts it for the center of the segment of
interest.


A lot of cruisers keep a 14 MHz "Hamstick" on board as an emergency
antenna they can use if their tuner fails or if (heaven forbid) they are
dis-masted and can't use their backstay antenna.


I have Hamsticks for 80, 40, 20, and 15M. They were my only antennas
for a long time before I insulated the backstay and got an SGC auto
tuner. I still hang on to the Hamsticks as backups though. When I got
another boat that already had a 23' whip, I found that it worked better
than the backstay on my previous boat, so I have stuck with it.


In an emergency you can check in to the Maritime Mobile Service Net on
14.300 MHz even if you're not a ham. It is one of the few frequencies
monitored almost continuously by experienced operators.


I have been checking into the MMSN for years now. Actually, the MMSN
is only in operation during certain hours (1200 to 2000 Eastern time). Other
nets are in operation during other hours (Coast Guard Net, InterCon, etc) In
an emergency you can check into anything anywhere.


The Hamstick is easy to store, easy to install, and once adjusted, should
be trouble-free. To switch bands, you switch Hamsticks. They even make a
quick-connect gizmo.


Been using them for years.


There are other makes as well. But if you don't use something like a
Hamstick, and just use a longer whip like a 16 foot whip, it will be good
for just one band. Actually, 16 feet is close to a quarter-wave on 20
meters so you may be able to use it as-is without a tuner on that band. If
you're not comfortable doing the hookup, find a local ham to advise you.
They're usually glad to help.


I am a local ham I help myself alot


Good luck!


Thanks!
Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

I supose that one could make a trap-vertical to avoid a tuner, but
I've never seen one for marine bands. I do recall a version of the
OutBacker that was for marine use but have never known anyone
that had one.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"Chuck" wrote in message
ink.net...
Hey there, Doug,

I guess I took your question of

How do you get away without a tuner?

too literally! Obviously you've been doing it for years.

73,

Chuck


Doug Dotson wrote:
Comments below.

"Chuck" wrote in message
link.net...

Doug, it's difficult to generalize but in many cases the radiation
resistance of a whip will be in the range of 20 to 35 ohms (assuming the
whip is a quarter-wave or somewhat shorter) and the ground resistance in
series with that may be another 25 ohms or so. What you get is a
feedpoint impedance of about 45 to 60 ohms (could be more or less) which
will match 50 ohm coax very nicely without a tuner. Most transmitters
will feed loads of 25 to 100 ohms (2:1 swr) without complaining. For a
short run of coax, your total losses will probably be less than if you
used a tuner.


Agreed.


It is true that you can only use such an antenna for a single marine or
ham band.


And as such is an inconvenient situation on a boat.


Even then, at the lower frequencies, you will experience a limited band
of frequencies that you can use without a tuner. On 8 MHz and above, you
will probably find that an antenna cut for the middle of the band will
cover the whole band nicely.


SOP for single band antennas unless one is interested in only a
subsection
of the band in which case one cuts it for the center of the segment of
interest.


A lot of cruisers keep a 14 MHz "Hamstick" on board as an emergency
antenna they can use if their tuner fails or if (heaven forbid) they are
dis-masted and can't use their backstay antenna.


I have Hamsticks for 80, 40, 20, and 15M. They were my only antennas
for a long time before I insulated the backstay and got an SGC auto
tuner. I still hang on to the Hamsticks as backups though. When I got
another boat that already had a 23' whip, I found that it worked better
than the backstay on my previous boat, so I have stuck with it.


In an emergency you can check in to the Maritime Mobile Service Net on
14.300 MHz even if you're not a ham. It is one of the few frequencies
monitored almost continuously by experienced operators.


I have been checking into the MMSN for years now. Actually, the MMSN
is only in operation during certain hours (1200 to 2000 Eastern time).
Other
nets are in operation during other hours (Coast Guard Net, InterCon, etc)
In an emergency you can check into anything anywhere.


The Hamstick is easy to store, easy to install, and once adjusted, should
be trouble-free. To switch bands, you switch Hamsticks. They even make a
quick-connect gizmo.


Been using them for years.


There are other makes as well. But if you don't use something like a
Hamstick, and just use a longer whip like a 16 foot whip, it will be good
for just one band. Actually, 16 feet is close to a quarter-wave on 20
meters so you may be able to use it as-is without a tuner on that band.
If you're not comfortable doing the hookup, find a local ham to advise
you. They're usually glad to help.


I am a local ham I help myself alot


Good luck!


Thanks!
Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:35:22 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

A 50' to 75' whip on any boat would be a problem. A backstay
is not a whip.

===================================

True but it functions the same way electrically.

When I was a kid it was common to see continuously loaded whips with
wire loosely wound around a tapered form, frequently a varnished
bamboo pole. Is anyone making anything like that in fiberglass?

It's hard to believe the marine version of the Outbacker was very
efficient, but it probably was better than nothing at all.

Yeah, other than traps, the only other reliable technique I can think of
for a multiband (as opposed to simply a "wideband") antenna is to use
switched, tuned feeders (open wire line stubs actually, cut to tune a
dipole to each band). I have a difficult time imagining that on a
sailboat! Anyway, that stretches the idea of "no tuner", but at least
there are no moving parts other than the band switch.

Well, now that I think of it, there are some common antennas that work
on more than one band without a tuner or traps. A simple 40 meter dipole
(or quarter-wave vertical) ought to work on 15 meters, for example. And
the G5RV, and some sky loop antennas are multiband. A vertical (cut the
horizontal one in half) G5RV would be interesting to consider. I don't
think I've encountered that before and matching might be interesting,
but it may have potential for backstay antennas. These antennas usually
benefit from a rig with a built-in tuner, so maybe they should be
"disqualified" as not tuner-less.

Chuck, NT3G
s/v Sans Serif

Doug Dotson wrote:
I supose that one could make a trap-vertical to avoid a tuner, but
I've never seen one for marine bands. I do recall a version of the
OutBacker that was for marine use but have never known anyone
that had one.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

I believe that is what my whip is. Although I'm not sure that it is
wound around the pole though. It is made by Shakepeare.

Doug

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:35:22 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

A 50' to 75' whip on any boat would be a problem. A backstay
is not a whip.

===================================

True but it functions the same way electrically.

When I was a kid it was common to see continuously loaded whips with
wire loosely wound around a tapered form, frequently a varnished
bamboo pole. Is anyone making anything like that in fiberglass?

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" wrote:

A 50' to 75' whip on any boat would be a problem. A backstay
is not a whip.

Doug, what I was talking about was a backstay that feed a whip side
mounted to the top of the mast. that way a 35' backstay feeding a 28'
whip would be 60+ft electrical antenna.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" wrote:

I believe that is what my whip is. Although I'm not sure that it is
wound around the pole though. It is made by Shakepeare.

Doug

Nope, Helical wound antennas exist but Shakespear doesn't make them.
At least not the ones that I am familiar with.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @