Has anyone had experience trying to drive a Xantrex inverter/charger
with a small gas generator?

The specs for the Xantrex Prosine 2.0 inverter/charger say that when
it's plugged into shorepower (or an external generator), it will
automatically reduce the charger load to keep the AC source voltage
above a minimum level.

If that's to be believed, I should be able to run a portable 1 KW
generator into the Xantrex, and have it draw as much current as the
generator can serve up, but not overload it. I should also be able to
have AC appliances running off the Xantrex, and still charge the
battery with any AC power left over.

Has anyone actually done that? Or had any experience with that kind
of setup?

- Walt Bilofsky

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:40:01 -0800, Walt Bilofsky
wrote:

Has anyone had experience trying to drive a Xantrex inverter/charger
with a small gas generator?

The specs for the Xantrex Prosine 2.0 inverter/charger say that when
it's plugged into shorepower (or an external generator), it will
automatically reduce the charger load to keep the AC source voltage
above a minimum level.

If that's to be believed, I should be able to run a portable 1 KW
generator into the Xantrex, and have it draw as much current as the
generator can serve up, but not overload it. I should also be able to
have AC appliances running off the Xantrex, and still charge the
battery with any AC power left over.

Has anyone actually done that? Or had any experience with that kind
of setup?

===================================

A 1 kw generator is a bit on the light side for a Prosine 2.0 but it
might work at reduced charging current. Much depends on how "stiff"
your generator is at maintaining constant voltage and waveform under
high varying loads. If your generator varys it's voltage and waveform
too much, there is risk of a surging effect when the inverter and
generator start compensating for each other. Speaking from experience
on my old boat, this WILL lead to problems with one or both. If at
all possible, get a bigger generator, or try before you buy.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:40:01 -0800, Walt Bilofsky
wrote:

Has anyone had experience trying to drive a Xantrex inverter/charger
with a small gas generator?

The specs for the Xantrex Prosine 2.0 inverter/charger say that when
it's plugged into shorepower (or an external generator), it will
automatically reduce the charger load to keep the AC source voltage
above a minimum level.

If that's to be believed, I should be able to run a portable 1 KW
generator into the Xantrex, and have it draw as much current as the
generator can serve up, but not overload it. I should also be able to
have AC appliances running off the Xantrex, and still charge the
battery with any AC power left over.

Has anyone actually done that? Or had any experience with that kind
of setup?

- Walt Bilofsky

Read the manual for your inverter/charger CAREFULLY _before_ buying
the generator.

I have a TrueCharge 40 which a simple calculation says can be easily
driven by a 600 watt generator - so I bought a Honda 600W generator.
The charger trips the breaker on the generator every time I try it,
because that (and probably most similar chargers) have an awful power
factor - the charger actually draws about 8.5 amps at 120V, while the
40 amp at 12 (more like 14) volt output suggests that it should take
560 watts or 4.7 amps.

The TruCharge 40+ has no provision to limit the input current - don't
know about the ProSine.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Walt Bilofsky wrote in
news
Has anyone had experience trying to drive a Xantrex inverter/charger
with a small gas generator?


Why go to all that complexity, when you can buy an inverter-powered gas
genset like the Honda EU3000is, getting rid of the heavy 60 Hz alternator
iron in the first place?

http://www.hayesequipment.com/eu3000is.htm

I've got one bolted to two brackets on the back door of my service stepvan.
You can hardly hear it running as it runs so slow (around 1200 RPM until
you get 1800 watts on it when the computer opens the throttle for more
power). I also own the 1000 watt model, but the 3KW runs slower than the
tiny engine in the 1KW EU1000i and makes less noise because of it.

It's the finest small genset I ever owned....electric start, has an AGM
starting battery inside it...Hayes has an aftermarket remote starting panel
if you want to mount it. Cranks right up even in the coldest weather.
Hey, it's a HONDA 6.5 hp 4-stroker. Has 12A at 12V for charging batteries
separate from everything else. There's two 20A wall outlets and a 30A
twist lock 115VAC outlet to plug the boat into. It will produce
continuously 23A, 25A intermittently. I'm powering two 6000 BTU wall A/C
units in the truck plus my service desk in air conditioned comfort. It
WILL run as advertised...3.4 gallons at full load for over 7 hours! 20
hours at 1/4 load (average?) on the tank with the Econo Mode ON, reducing
the engine speed to minimal.

As the 60 Hz is generated by a 3KW inverter I have yet to be able to
destroy. The alternator is a very high frequency set of coils that looks
like the stator in an outboard motor around the flywheel of the engine.
There is no "alternator" sticking out. The three-phase, high frequency AC
is simply rectified into a few hundred volts and fed to the huge 3KW
inverter as DC for its use. Output is even certified to run computers and
is ROCK STABLE at 60 HZ and 120VAC right up until the computer finds out
you overloaded it and it simply trips out electronically to protect the
inverter. A yellow LED warns you of impending shutdown, which then simply
turns red when the power is cut off. Indestructable!

Of course, it's a gasoline engine with all the CO coming out of it with the
cooling air exhaust, whos heat should help RISE away from the boat being
blown by the fan....not just left to cool and fill the hull with CO gas to
kill everyone. But, you be the judge of that....

I paid $1500 for mine because I was lucky enough to stumble on a guy
bringing it back to my Honda dealer to trade up to the 7KW RV genset. This
3KW wouldn't pull the two huge A/C units on his 5th wheel camper. It had 3
hours on it....in the box....warranty and all...(c; Street price is about
1800-1900. Retail is $2495

Did I mention you can hardly hear it running??.....(c;

Thanks for the info, Larry.

I was hoping to use the Honda EU1000i. It weighs 29 pounds, so even
with my aging back I could take it on the boat for week-long cruises,
then bring it home as a backup during power outages. Might have to go
to the EU2000i - 47 lbs. (The EU3000 is over 130 lbs.)

How would your EU1000i do when running an air conditioner that draws 7
amps? Will it die when the compressor comes on? Any chance it would
run a 9 amp unit?

Another possibility - there is at least one 12v DC marine air
conditioner. If it were running off the battery - and the generator
were running the inverter's 100 amp charger - then all the surge
problems get handled by the battery and a 1kw generator works just
fine.

Yes, CO is one of the serious problems with this idea. I would
consider ventilation and maybe extending the exhaust when running it -
and of course have a CO detector on the boat.

- Walt Bilofsky N6QH

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Walt Bilofsky wrote in
news
Has anyone had experience trying to drive a Xantrex inverter/charger
with a small gas generator?


Why go to all that complexity, when you can buy an inverter-powered gas
genset like the Honda EU3000is, getting rid of the heavy 60 Hz alternator
iron in the first place?

http://www.hayesequipment.com/eu3000is.htm

I've got one bolted to two brackets on the back door of my service stepvan.
You can hardly hear it running as it runs so slow (around 1200 RPM until
you get 1800 watts on it when the computer opens the throttle for more
power). I also own the 1000 watt model, but the 3KW runs slower than the
tiny engine in the 1KW EU1000i and makes less noise because of it.

It's the finest small genset I ever owned....electric start, has an AGM
starting battery inside it...Hayes has an aftermarket remote starting panel
if you want to mount it. Cranks right up even in the coldest weather.
Hey, it's a HONDA 6.5 hp 4-stroker. Has 12A at 12V for charging batteries
separate from everything else. There's two 20A wall outlets and a 30A
twist lock 115VAC outlet to plug the boat into. It will produce
continuously 23A, 25A intermittently. I'm powering two 6000 BTU wall A/C
units in the truck plus my service desk in air conditioned comfort. It
WILL run as advertised...3.4 gallons at full load for over 7 hours! 20
hours at 1/4 load (average?) on the tank with the Econo Mode ON, reducing
the engine speed to minimal.

As the 60 Hz is generated by a 3KW inverter I have yet to be able to
destroy. The alternator is a very high frequency set of coils that looks
like the stator in an outboard motor around the flywheel of the engine.
There is no "alternator" sticking out. The three-phase, high frequency AC
is simply rectified into a few hundred volts and fed to the huge 3KW
inverter as DC for its use. Output is even certified to run computers and
is ROCK STABLE at 60 HZ and 120VAC right up until the computer finds out
you overloaded it and it simply trips out electronically to protect the
inverter. A yellow LED warns you of impending shutdown, which then simply
turns red when the power is cut off. Indestructable!

Of course, it's a gasoline engine with all the CO coming out of it with the
cooling air exhaust, whos heat should help RISE away from the boat being
blown by the fan....not just left to cool and fill the hull with CO gas to
kill everyone. But, you be the judge of that....

I paid $1500 for mine because I was lucky enough to stumble on a guy
bringing it back to my Honda dealer to trade up to the 7KW RV genset. This
3KW wouldn't pull the two huge A/C units on his 5th wheel camper. It had 3
hours on it....in the box....warranty and all...(c; Street price is about
1800-1900. Retail is $2495

Did I mention you can hardly hear it running??.....(c;

Peter Bennett wrote:

snip

The TruCharge 40+ has no provision to limit the input current - don't
know about the ProSine.

Peter, the manual says:

"The ProSine 2.0 uses a Power Share feature which senses the AC load
on the system and gives priority to your AC loads, thereby reducing
the charger current ... Sometimes the usual AC shorepower sources have
a low voltage. To avoid loading these weak sources any further, the
charger automatically reduces its AC current draw as the AC voltage
approaches the minimum acceptable level (as set by the user)."

Sounds great in theory, and the ability to set the triggering AC
voltage level will give some ability to tune the system. But as Wayne
says, there might be a surging effect - especially if the generator is
running when the air conditioner compressor goes on.

That's why I'm looking for people who have tried this sort of thing.
It's a bit hard to breadboard up a system without making a major
investment in at least some of the components.

- Walt Bilofsky

Wayne.B wrote:

If at
all possible, get a bigger generator, or try before you buy.

Good thought. Hertz Equipment here rents the Honda EU1000i
generators,

So here's Plan A - install the inverter and air conditioning system.
That gives me something that can run off shorepower and, for short
periods, off the battery. Then rent the 1kW generator, try it, and if
it doesn't work, buy the 2 kW which should have plenty of capacity.

- Walt Bilofsky

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:09:04 -0800, Walt Bilofsky
wrote:

and of course have a CO detector on the boat.

=====================================

I highly recommend that for any boat. Even with a diesel generator
you can become the victim of someone elses CO under the right
circumstances.

Walt Bilofsky wrote in
:

Thanks for the info, Larry.

I was hoping to use the Honda EU1000i. It weighs 29 pounds, so even
with my aging back I could take it on the boat for week-long cruises,
then bring it home as a backup during power outages. Might have to go
to the EU2000i - 47 lbs. (The EU3000 is over 130 lbs.)

I think you're going to be disappointed in the EU1000. It will pull ONE
5000 btu window air conditioner, sorta like a Carry Cool, but NOTHING ELSE
when it's doing it. It'll run at full speed, around 4000 RPM? doing so and
be very loaded down.

How would your EU1000i do when running an air conditioner that draws 7
amps? Will it die when the compressor comes on? Any chance it would
run a 9 amp unit?

I had it pulling a 5000 Btu window A/C. As long as you were there to
supervise and save it if the A/C compressor didn't start, it was fine.
But, I'd find it tripped out when the A/C compressor tried to restart too
soon with head pressure before the Clixon tripped in the compressor.
That's no longer an issue with a 3KW genset.

The little engine in the EU1000i is just too small to pull much of a load.
It's a great little picnic rig to run a few fans and a TV. It's just not a
serious power plant.


Another possibility - there is at least one 12v DC marine air
conditioner. If it were running off the battery - and the generator
were running the inverter's 100 amp charger - then all the surge
problems get handled by the battery and a 1kw generator works just
fine.

12V at 100A = 1200 watts. What's that, 3000 Btu? How awful...useless.

I'm not very "nautical" when it comes to air conditioners. When they ask
me what A/C to get for their boat, I always tell them to buy an RV rooftop
airconditioner dropped into the main hatch and bolted in place. "Marine"
air conditioners SUCK! ALL the heat sources of the A/C, itself, are INSIDE
the air conditioned space! How stupid! The A/C's "net output" is the Btu
it's rated for MINUS all the heat loads of the hot compressor, hot seawater
heat exchanger, hot fan motor and whatever power the controls generate as
heat. So, the 12,000 Btu "Marine" A/C nets about something like 7000-8000
Btu? How silly. The damned thing is NOISY because it's all INSIDE THE
SPACE! And, its ductwork sucks up valuable storage spaces something awful.
With a rooftop RV A/C unit, ALL THE HEAT SOURCES ARE OUTSIDE! All 12,000
Btu is poured into the boat! If it'll make you feel better, have your
canvas shop make a pretty blue seatcover for it with an anchor or spoked
ship's wheel on it...(c; They also make a great little seat for the
bikini-clad beauties to sit on for the helmsman's amusement.

What I can't figure out is why "marine" A/C units don't come with "Easy
Start Kits". Any RV dealer can supply your new rooftop Coleman with an
Easy Start Kit so it doesn't draw any more current STARTING it than it does
RUNNING it! That technology isn't new! The compressor doesn't come on in
a rush, it starts cranking up slowly. This "kit" installs inside the unit.
It makes it easy on the genset because it doesn't have a huge starting
current twice the running current. Why Marine units don't have them is
silly.


Yes, CO is one of the serious problems with this idea. I would
consider ventilation and maybe extending the exhaust when running it -
and of course have a CO detector on the boat.


If you're anchored out, you could always set the genset adrift 50' behind
the boat in the dingy....that gets rid of the CO problem and any noise it
makes.

Every boat needs a smoke and CO detectors....along with a flooding alarm
that makes sleep impossible in a marina!

Peter Bennett is absolutely correct. Inverter/Chargers run at .5 to .7 power
factor which means that the AC current supplied to them will be as much as
double what the calculation of DC volts * DC amps= DCwatts/115 AC volts
gives you. It is current which trips out a genset. It is power (watts) that
overloads its engine.

The Honda EU1000i is only rated for 850 watts continuous, so it could just
barely (as Larry notes) run a 5000 BTU, 7 amp Carry On. I am rather
surprised that it even starts it, as the inrush current is at least double
the 7 amp running current. Chalk that up to the excellent electronics in the
little Honda. I had a 2800 watt Coleman generator that would barely start a
Carry On. And as Larry noted with the Honda, it wouldn't restart it unless
the freon circuit stabilized its pressure over quite a while to eliminate
the high head pressure start up condition.

A better solution is a larger generator or a very efficient charger. IOTA
makes a fairly efficient charger- about .8 power factor as I recall. Even
so, the Honda EU1000i will be limited to supporting a 40 amp DC charging
rate at best.

David