In article 1cHYd.62360$7z6.6536@lakeread04,
"Jack Painter" wrote:

I know that Bruce. I mentioned the "vessel" because it is for the owner of A
VESSEL, and cannot be transferred or used when the licensee goes to another
vessel. So it is "for life" only if it remains ON THAT VESSEL. Please grow
up or go back to your barstool.

Wrong again Jackie..... the Resricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit is
a PERSONAL Operators License and does NOT go with any Radio Station
License, one may, or may not have issued to a vessel or aircraft they
may own. It is also REQUIRED to be in the possession of any Pilot who
makes an International Flight, or who flys outside US airspace and under
a Non-US Flight Control Center. It is NOT tied to any vessel or
aircraft, and is a Lifetime Permit, for that reason. You may change
vessels or aircraft and Station Licenses for them, but you NEVER need to
change your Resricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit.


Here you go mixing up licenses again, forgetting the title and topic of
this newsgroup is RECREATIONAL boating. Only a Restricted Operators
permit is required for a recreational boater who wants to visit a
foreign port. His boat can remain "covered by the rule" which means no
station license for VHF-only, and the ROP covers his carriage of the
radio, whether he uses it OR NOT, in a foreign port.

Jackie, you need a bit of a refresher in your International Radio Law,
son..
If a US Flagged vessel is fitted with a VHF radio, and Licensed under
the Blanket License Rule, and leaves US Waters and enters a foreign
port, it is as if he had NO Authorization for the fitted Radio. Said
radio would not be covered under International Law to transmit under any
circiumstance, baring a Distress Transmission. It doesn't matter if it
is a "recreational boater" or not. I am not "mixing up" anything, just
presenting the FACTS of International Maritime Radio Law, which you seem
to not be able to grasp. A Restricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit
is NOT a Station License, and confers no Authority to Fit, or imply
Legality of Carriage, that requires a Station License. Station and
Operator Licenses are two DIFFERENT things. How hard can this be to
graps?

That's called being "covered by the rule" and does not permit a vessel
to dock in a foreign port, which is why it's another of your useless
comments that serves only the interests of your strange ego.

This has absolutly nothing to do with "dock in a foreign port" in anyway.
A US Flagged vessel may certainly "dock in a foreign port" with a fitted
VHF Radio that would be Licensed in US waters under the Blanket License
Rule, the Operator just could not legally make any Transmissions from
inside the waters of another country, or communicate with any station,
once he entered the waters of another country. Why is this so hard for
you to grasp? Actually, in some countries, it is a CRIME to have a
Radiotelephone fitted, and no Internationally Recognized License for
such a Radio, and they maybe impounded by the Government, whos water
your in.

The Rules have not changed, since the last time I reveiwed the IMO Annual
Meeting Minutes. I was never a "field-rep", in fact I was Field Agant
dually sworn, with the same Oath that you took, upon entering the USCG,
no claim, just FACT. I still have my Badge, and cancelled Credentials,
as do all Retired and RIF'd Field Agants.


Bruce in alaska

--
Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern Alaska)
add a 2 before @
Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post
P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South
Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850
www.btpost.net www.99850.net

"Bruce Gordon" wrote
/snip/
Wrong again Jackie..... the Resricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit is
a PERSONAL Operators License and does NOT go with any Radio Station
License, one may, or may not have issued to a vessel or aircraft they
may own. It is also REQUIRED to be in the possession of any Pilot who
makes an International Flight, or who flys outside US airspace and under
a Non-US Flight Control Center. It is NOT tied to any vessel or
aircraft, and is a Lifetime Permit, for that reason. You may change
vessels or aircraft and Station Licenses for them, but you NEVER need to
change your Resricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit.

Allright Bruce, if that is so, then please explain why the FCC requires
specific ship information on the application form (605 main) for an RR
license, and why same instructions include use of the same form for later
modifying ships (or aircraft) information (no fee required for the mod) ?
Sure looks like the "operator" is tied to a specific vessel.. The 605 form
is not a ship's license application form, so what possible reason could
there be for including the vessel data (and requiring it's modification if
changed) on the RR application, if the RR permit was not tied to a
particular vessel?

And why in the supplemental information forms required with 605,, there is
included a temporary restricted radiotelephone operator permit that uses the
vessels documentation number as the callsign? If the vessel changes (sold,
replaced with new boat, etc), do these instructions not specifically require
amending the restricted radiotelephone operators permit? I read that they
do, and it looks plain to me that if you applied for an RR for international
voyages (the only reason for having it on a pleasure/voluntary vessel per
the form itself), then you must maintain current vessel information related
to that RR permit, and file a modification when the vessel changes..


Temporary permit: http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605f.pdf

Instructions for Temporary Operator Permit for the
Ship, Aircraft, Restricted Radiotelephone,
Restricted Radiotelephone-Limited Use, and GMRS Radio Services
Do Not Use if Applying for Ship Exemption
DO NOT MAIL THIS SCHEDULE TO THE FCC - KEEP IT FOR YOUR RECORDS
Form FCC 605, Schedule F, is a supplementary schedule for use with the FCC
Quick-Form Application for Authorization in the Ship,
Aircraft, Amateur, Restricted and Commercial Operator, and the General
Mobile Radio Services, FCC 605 Main Form. This schedule is
to be used as a Temporary Operator Permit for the Ship, Aircraft, Restricted
Radiotelephone, Restricted Radiotelephone-Limited Use,
and GMRS Radio Services while your application is being processed by the
FCC. In order for this Temporary Operator Permit to be
valid, you must complete the FCC 605 Main Form and the appropriate
Additional Data Schedule and submit them to the FCC.

Main form-605 for Restricted Operator
http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605main.pdf

Best regards,

Jack

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:23:07 -0500, "Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Gary Schafer" wrote
Bruce is 100% correct on all he posted. Jack has a habit of becoming
an expert every time he reads a blurb of something whether he
understands it or not.

A restricted operators license has nothing to do with a vessel at all.
It only has to do with an individual. The holder of that restricted
license can operate a radio on any vessel that qualifies. It is a
lifetime permit for the individual.

The ship license is only good for the ship and the owner it was issued
to. It is not a lifetime license and needs to be renewed every 10
years, unless that has recently changed.
If the vessel is sold to a new owner the ship license becomes invalid.
It does not stay with the vessel or the old owner.
The new owner must obtain a new ship license if he is to operate the
radios with a need.

Regards
Gary

Gary, perhaps you want to weigh-in on the new Restricted Operators Permit
application. It
requires a STATED vessel or aircraft name and ID. If that changes, an
amended license (but with no additional fee) must be filed, resulting in a
new license according to the instructions on the application.

http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605main.pdf

Read the heading on form 605. It is a multiple use form. It is used
for several different type license.

For the restricted radiotelephone license you also need schedule E.

The only time a restricted license is tied to a ship is if you are an
alien applying for a restricted operator license. It is good for only
the ship you applied for and or for a specific voyage.

That is entirely different from the regular restricted radiotelephone
permit, which has nothing to do with any ship, aircraft or call sign.

Regards
Gary

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:14:04 -0500, "Jack Painter"
wrote:

The information I posted is current, accurate, and applies to the questions
posted by Wayne B.

=================================

Actually not. My question was, "How can I ensure that my DSC radio is
actually hooked up and working, i.e, is the position information and
identifier being sent correctly?"

The licensing information and issuance of an identifier is an entirely
different topic.

"Wayne.B" wrote

Actually not. My question was, "How can I ensure that my DSC radio is
actually hooked up and working, i.e, is the position information and
identifier being sent correctly?"

The licensing information and issuance of an identifier is an entirely
different topic.


You posted these questions:
"Is there a test process for VHF/DSC? My latest boat came with two DSC
capable ICOMs but I have no idea if the feature is even hooked up, let
alone working. Also, I have no idea what vessel ID is programmed, if
any."
--
Testing the distress-signal feature of a vhf radio with the "Distress"
button on front panel is never permitted. The radio has other dsc features
which your owner's manual will describe, and vary from model to model.

You can operate your dsc-capable radio according to it's individual
capabilities with other dsc-capable radios, according to their capabilities.
Several different versions of dsc are on the water. All this is covered in
the owner's manual.
--
I did remind you that " you must
register an MMSI (Maritime Mobile Service Identifier) number to YOUR vessel.
The number (if any) that was in the used radio is not valid any longer."

and

"Changing the MMSI on a radio can be done by the owner, providing you have
the owner's operation manual which provides these instructions. Many radio
manufacturers provide manuals online. BOAT-US has an 800 # for you to call
where an experienced associate can walk you through the procedures involved.
That number is: 1-800-566-1536 (working hours). Or you can simply walk-in to
any BOAT-US store with your radio(s) and do the same"
--

Is this clear what your first steps should be, ie: obtaining an owner's
manual, determining what your radio is capable of, then registering an MMSI
via phone and programming or letting a BOAT-US associate do it for you, then
hooking up your GPS according to the instruction manuals, and operating your
radio in accordance with it's instruction manuals?

Jack

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

Actually not. My question was, "How can I ensure that my DSC radio is
actually hooked up and working, i.e, is the position information and
identifier being sent correctly?"

The licensing information and issuance of an identifier is an entirely
different topic.

If you knew someone with a ROSS DSC Vhf from a few years back, it will
display the data transmitted from a DSC Radio. This could be done with
the test radio on a "Dummy Load" so as to not radiate a False Distress
Signal. Or, just about any full GMDSS Suite could display the data
transmitted.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article m0jZd.63327$7z6.25479@lakeread04,
"Jack Painter" wrote:

You posted these questions:
"Is there a test process for VHF/DSC? My latest boat came with two DSC
capable ICOMs but I have no idea if the feature is even hooked up, let
alone working. Also, I have no idea what vessel ID is programmed, if
any."
--
Testing the distress-signal feature of a vhf radio with the "Distress"
button on front panel is never permitted. The radio has other dsc features
which your owner's manual will describe, and vary from model to model.

You can operate your dsc-capable radio according to it's individual
capabilities with other dsc-capable radios, according to their capabilities.
Several different versions of dsc are on the water. All this is covered in
the owner's manual.
--
I did remind you that " you must
register an MMSI (Maritime Mobile Service Identifier) number to YOUR vessel.
The number (if any) that was in the used radio is not valid any longer."

and

"Changing the MMSI on a radio can be done by the owner, providing you have
the owner's operation manual which provides these instructions. Many radio
manufacturers provide manuals online. BOAT-US has an 800 # for you to call
where an experienced associate can walk you through the procedures involved.
That number is: 1-800-566-1536 (working hours). Or you can simply walk-in to
any BOAT-US store with your radio(s) and do the same"
--

Is this clear what your first steps should be, ie: obtaining an owner's
manual, determining what your radio is capable of, then registering an MMSI
via phone and programming or letting a BOAT-US associate do it for you, then
hooking up your GPS according to the instruction manuals, and operating your
radio in accordance with it's instruction manuals?

Jack

What Jack really meant is: "Read your Radio's Manual" Brevity is not
Jacks strong suite, and he still doesn't 'Get" what you really wanted
in your original question. Oh well, there are a lot of things that Jack
doesn't "Get"........


Me one wonders if Jack actually "Gets" anything.......

In article re4Zd.62623$7z6.38138@lakeread04,
"Jack Painter" wrote:


Allright Bruce, if that is so, then please explain why the FCC requires
specific ship information on the application form (605 main) for an RR
license, and why same instructions include use of the same form for later
modifying ships (or aircraft) information (no fee required for the mod) ?
Sure looks like the "operator" is tied to a specific vessel.. The 605 form
is not a ship's license application form, so what possible reason could
there be for including the vessel data (and requiring it's modification if
changed) on the RR application, if the RR permit was not tied to a
particular vessel?

And why in the supplemental information forms required with 605,, there is
included a temporary restricted radiotelephone operator permit that uses the
vessels documentation number as the callsign? If the vessel changes (sold,
replaced with new boat, etc), do these instructions not specifically require
amending the restricted radiotelephone operators permit? I read that they
do, and it looks plain to me that if you applied for an RR for international
voyages (the only reason for having it on a pleasure/voluntary vessel per
the form itself), then you must maintain current vessel information related
to that RR permit, and file a modification when the vessel changes..


Temporary permit: http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605f.pdf

Instructions for Temporary Operator Permit for the
Ship, Aircraft, Restricted Radiotelephone,
Restricted Radiotelephone-Limited Use, and GMRS Radio Services
Do Not Use if Applying for Ship Exemption
DO NOT MAIL THIS SCHEDULE TO THE FCC - KEEP IT FOR YOUR RECORDS
Form FCC 605, Schedule F, is a supplementary schedule for use with the FCC
Quick-Form Application for Authorization in the Ship,
Aircraft, Amateur, Restricted and Commercial Operator, and the General
Mobile Radio Services, FCC 605 Main Form. This schedule is
to be used as a Temporary Operator Permit for the Ship, Aircraft, Restricted
Radiotelephone, Restricted Radiotelephone-Limited Use,
and GMRS Radio Services while your application is being processed by the
FCC. In order for this Temporary Operator Permit to be
valid, you must complete the FCC 605 Main Form and the appropriate
Additional Data Schedule and submit them to the FCC.

Main form-605 for Restricted Operator
http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605main.pdf

Best regards,

Jack



You know Jackieboy, if you could actually read, it would save you,
from folks hanging the "Dufus Lable" on you, so often.........

See Gary S's post..... He explains it to you in "Small Words" that you
MAY be able to comprehend.

Yes, I acknowledge that the FCC Form 605 is a monsterious cludge of a
form, and beyond what meer mortals can decphyer, but Jeeeze Louise,
Jack they write the instructions for 6th Graders.......

I get paid lots of money to help folks find their way through the FCC
Licensing System, but not ususally for Resrticted Radiotelephone
Operator Permits. If you really can't make your way thru that filing,
I guess I could actully entertain the idea of doing one for you Pro Bono,
seeing as you are "Intelectually challenged", and since it is a Lifetime
Permit I would only have to do it once.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
Gary Schafer wrote:

Read the heading on form 605. It is a multiple use form. It is used
for several different type license.

For the restricted radiotelephone license you also need schedule E.

The only time a restricted license is tied to a ship is if you are an
alien applying for a restricted operator license. It is good for only
the ship you applied for and or for a specific voyage.

That is entirely different from the regular restricted radiotelephone
permit, which has nothing to do with any ship, aircraft or call sign.

Regards
Gary

Hi, again Gary,

I just finished a post to jackieboy, refering him to your above post,
which sets out in "Small Words", the answer to his Restricted
Radiotelephone Operator Permit question. I hope that he will be able to
comprehend the answer, and let this thread die a fast death. It seems
that navigating FCC Form 605 is just beyond his abilities, and from past
cases it would seem that the 605 can be confusing to alot of the boating
world. I appreciate you efforts to interpret form 605 to those folks.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Bruce,

We both made errors in interpreting the law here, as described on the FCC
website and the CFR. to wit:

"Bruce Gordon" wrote
"Jack Painter" wrote:

Here you go mixing up licenses again, forgetting the title and topic of
this newsgroup is RECREATIONAL boating. Only a Restricted Operators
permit is required for a recreational boater who wants to visit a
foreign port. His boat can remain "covered by the rule" which means no
station license for VHF-only, and the ROP covers his carriage of the
radio, whether he uses it OR NOT, in a foreign port.

(I was wrong, the Station license is indeed also required)

Jackie, you need a bit of a refresher in your International Radio Law,
son..
If a US Flagged vessel is fitted with a VHF radio, and Licensed under
the Blanket License Rule, and leaves US Waters and enters a foreign
port, it is as if he had NO Authorization for the fitted Radio. Said
radio would not be covered under International Law to transmit under any
circiumstance, baring a Distress Transmission.

(You were wrong, according to the rules, voluntary equipped or not, vessels
with radios may not enter or dock foreign port w/o RO & SL.)
---------------------------

That's called being "covered by the rule" and does not permit a vessel
to dock in a foreign port

This has absolutly nothing to do with "dock in a foreign port" in anyway.
A US Flagged vessel may certainly "dock in a foreign port" with a fitted
VHF Radio that would be Licensed in US waters under the Blanket License
Rule, the Operator just could not legally make any Transmissions from
inside the waters of another country, or communicate with any station,
once he entered the waters of another country.


(You were wrong, the rules clearly describe "dock in foreign port" and
"enter foreign port" as the requirement for a RO in addition to SL. Only
"sailing in international waters and not comunicating with a foreign
station" are exempt.)

Shown he http://wireless.fcc.gov/marine/fctsht14.html#SEC2

WHO NEEDS A SHIP STATION LICENSE?

You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs
aboard voluntary ships operating domestically. The terms "voluntary" and
"domestic" are defined below.

WHAT IS DOMESTIC OPERATION?

Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to
foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations.
Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous
conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico,
Bahamas, British Virgin Islands) a license is required. Additionally, if you
travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit as
described in Section III.

DO I NEED A RESTRICTED RADIOTELEPHONE OPERATOR PERMIT?

If you plan to dock in a foreign port (e.g., Canada or the Bahamas) or if
you communicate with foreign coast or ship stations, you must have a
RESTRICTED RADIOTELEPHONE OPERATOR PERMIT (sometimes referred to by boaters
as an "individual license") in addition to your ship radio station license.
Section IV outlines the procedure for obtaining a permit. However, if (1)
you merely plan to sail in domestic or international waters without docking
in any foreign ports and without communicating with foreign coast stations,
and (2) your radio operates only on VHF frequencies, you do not need an
operator permit.

** note the multiple references to
"travel to foreign port", and
"dock in foreign port".

And the form-605 instructions insists that all fields under "ship" be
completed, with no written exemption (or "N/A") for the vessel
name/documentation if application for an RO only. While that may be allowed
from your experience, the form does not leave that option to the applicant.

I would be happy to have your help when I need an FCC license.

Jack