Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your
internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink
from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery
cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy
wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
(and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
(did a modification to add additional golf carts).

Scott
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message ...
All,

Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I
am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.

I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine
cable
are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware of the
issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use something
with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp connectors
as
well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection.

From what I have read, solder and crimping is not a good idea. Soldering
is
not neccesary when using a proper crimp connector. Soldering has a number
of drawbacks. A good crimp connection that is sealed against moisture
is about as good as it gets.


For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire
in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition.

Thanks again,

Steve

In article ,
Larry W4CSC wrote:

Bruce in Alaska wrote in news:bruceg-
:

also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes
corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that
doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides
a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for
Salt Water vapors.


Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back......


There you go, Bruce....ruining good towing jobs when the cheapskates'
wiring rots through putting them in the dark.....(c;

Keep an eye out behind you! One of those tow guys may take a pot shot!!


I live so far out that we only have had one "Float By" sooting in
the last 15 years, and they were not shooting at me, just the neighbors
5 miles down the beach.........

Bruce in alaska who does actually live out in the alaskan bush.....
--
add a 2 before @

You have to hate those boats with diesels when they do
a float by sooting

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Larry W4CSC wrote:

Bruce in Alaska wrote in news:bruceg-
:

also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes
corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that
doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides
a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for
Salt Water vapors.


Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back......


There you go, Bruce....ruining good towing jobs when the cheapskates'
wiring rots through putting them in the dark.....(c;

Keep an eye out behind you! One of those tow guys may take a pot shot!!


I live so far out that we only have had one "Float By" sooting in
the last 15 years, and they were not shooting at me, just the neighbors
5 miles down the beach.........

Bruce in alaska who does actually live out in the alaskan bush.....
--
add a 2 before @

"Sailct41" wrote in message
...
Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do
your
internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat
shrink
from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my
battery
cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the
heavy
wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
(and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
(did a modification to add additional golf carts).

Scott
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message ...
All,

Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire
I
am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.


This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily
comprehend.

First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on
solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight
solder joints.

Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do
you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the
thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much
crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and
eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being
undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up
by an impedance change but that is going a little far.

It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next
10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is
bad....

I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of
harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found
on a device.

Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates
a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I
would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of
a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection.
Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the
solder.

I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the
sealing heat shrink to support the connection.

I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in
the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However
with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM
connectors...you are on your own.

Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder.
Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or
better than solder.

Jim Donohue

"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05...

"Sailct41" wrote in message
...
Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do
your
internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat
shrink
from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my
battery
cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the
heavy
wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
(and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
(did a modification to add additional golf carts).

Scott
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message ...
All,

Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire
I
am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.


This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily
comprehend.

First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on
solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no
straight solder joints.

Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How
do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC
the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too
much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp
and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to
being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick
it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far.

Rather extreme for boat applications.

It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the
next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the
first is bad....

Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the
ratcheting types.

I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of
harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were
found on a device.

Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this?

Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it
creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress
cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel
by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable
connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere
back of the solder.

I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that
the
major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a
result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also,
moisture
can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture
tight.

I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the
sealing heat shrink to support the connection.

I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies
in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder.
However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM
connectors...you are on your own.

Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and
solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as
good or better than solder.

Jim Donohue

Steve wrote:
I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well.
i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was
mainly
continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after
stripping
large lengths.

Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working
recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break
in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but
cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper
wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust.
Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or
so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like
extension cord wire.

So it can happen, at least in small gage wire.

On 27 Mar 2005 18:41:57 -0800, "Mark" wrote:
Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break
in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but
cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper
wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust.
Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or
so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like
extension cord wire.

So it can happen, at least in small gage wire.

========================================

And larger at times. I once had a similar condition with the shield
braid on a coax cable. Apparently the outer insulation had developed
a pin hole leak allowing moisture to enter. The copper braid in that
section had turned to green powder and was totally non-conductive.

I'd vote for tinned wire if longevity, reliability and low maintenance
are a future concern.

Wow, you have to be so carefull on this group. To clarify, I never
solder battery terminals. I am not even sure how you would without the
use of a blow-torch to get such a lot of metal hot enough. Then you
would probably do a lot of damage to the wire with wicking solder and
melting the insulation. They have to be crimped and sealed with double
layer heatshrink (the sort with glue inside).

The crimp/solder I was refering to was for the spade connectors on the
switches/cct breakers etc. Yes it might not be the universally accepted
best solution but if the crimp is good to start with then the solder
should not penetrate the crimp joint and hence will only act as an
additional seal for the whole.


Doug Dotson wrote:
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05...

"Sailct41" wrote in message
...

Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do
your
internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat
shrink
from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my
battery
cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the
heavy
wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
(and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
(did a modification to add additional golf carts).

Scott
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message ...

All,

Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire
I
am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.


This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily
comprehend.

First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on
solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no
straight solder joints.

Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How
do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC
the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too
much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp
and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to
being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick
it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far.


Rather extreme for boat applications.


It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the
next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the
first is bad....


Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the
ratcheting types.


I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of
harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were
found on a device.


Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this?


Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it
creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress
cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel
by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable
connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere
back of the solder.


I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that
the
major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a
result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also,
moisture
can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture
tight.


I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the
sealing heat shrink to support the connection.

I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies
in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder.
However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM
connectors...you are on your own.

Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and
solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as
good or better than solder.

Jim Donohue

"Steve" wrote in message ...
Wow, you have to be so carefull on this group. To clarify, I never solder
battery terminals. I am not even sure how you would without the use of a
blow-torch to get such a lot of metal hot enough. Then you would probably
do a lot of damage to the wire with wicking solder and melting the
insulation. They have to be crimped and sealed with double layer
heatshrink (the sort with glue inside).

Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a
small blowtorch as you mentioned.

The crimp/solder I was refering to was for the spade connectors on the
switches/cct breakers etc. Yes it might not be the universally accepted
best solution but if the crimp is good to start with then the solder
should not penetrate the crimp joint and hence will only act as an
additional seal for the whole.

See my previous comment about the research done by NASA back
in the 70's or 80's.


Doug Dotson wrote:
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05...

"Sailct41" wrote in message
...

Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do
your
internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat
shrink
from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my
battery
cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the
heavy
wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat
shrink
(and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth
them
(did a modification to add additional golf carts).

Scott
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message
...

All,

Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire
I
am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.


This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily
comprehend.

First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on
solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no
straight solder joints.

Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How
do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC
the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too
much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp
and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to
being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might
pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far.


Rather extreme for boat applications.


It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the
next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the
first is bad....


Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the
ratcheting types.


I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of
harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were
found on a device.


Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this?


Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it
creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress
cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector
barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite
suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically
somewhere back of the solder.


I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that
the
major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a
result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also,
moisture
can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made
moisture
tight.


I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the
sealing heat shrink to support the connection.

I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies
in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder.
However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM
connectors...you are on your own.

Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and
solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as
good or better than solder.

Jim Donohue

Interesting. Was the wire exposed to the elements? I have a navman wind
instrument which is all cabled with navman cables which I don't think
are tinned. It is very well insulated though with several layers of
different screening and insulation. However, it is quite new and if it
lasts 30 years I would not be too upset. After all in 30 years time how
call will the new technology be!

Does make me worry about the big multi-core wire in the mast though.
This is the only one I could not dury rig in a few minutes if there is a
failure. It is tinned and well insulated but - as you say - looking at
the condition of the ends is no indication that its integrity as a
whole. Does anyone ever double wire (dual redundacy)?

Thanks for the info.

Mark wrote:

Steve wrote:

I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well.
i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was

mainly

continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after

stripping

large lengths.


Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working
recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break
in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but
cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper
wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust.
Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or
so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like
extension cord wire.

So it can happen, at least in small gage wire.