On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:00:08 +0200, Remco Moedt
wrote:

Sounds like a system based on a VIA mini ITX.... :-)

Let's say I was inspired by it.... I don't think it's got all the
features I mentioned though.

Equally I have been hunting for a sunlight viewable screen. Apparently what
is wanted is a transflective LCD screen which uses sunlight to brighten the
image. Just using powerful backlights doesn't work because
a) they really can not compete with the sun for brilliance,
and b) they will use a lot of power.
Having found your screen, you need to be able to control the computer, so a
touch screen is the way to go. So here come the snags. Using a resistive or
capacitative touchscreen adds a piece of "glass" to the front of the
transflective screen. You loose about 15% of the sunlight going in, and a
further 15% of the light coming out ( almost 30% on a sunny day). Apparently
there are other touchscreen technologies such as Infra Red (IR) which does
not use a covering piece of glass, but there are questions here whether the
cursor follows the rain running down the screen.
Additional problems with regards to waterproofing. Apparently there is a
waterproof standard of IP65.
A number of manufacturers have it "just round the corner" but I'll believe
it when I see it. Prices quoted to me for a 12.1" screen vary between £1200
to £2400.


"MDJ" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have been looking for a PDA reflective type for some time now but
what we do have is a Solarism 15inch high brightness monitor. It is
mounted inside a cut down electric box which has a fan assisted durad
box on the rear to keep the display cool.

http://princessownersclub.fotopic.net/p595958.html

That is the actual view from the display on a bright cloudy day. Direct
sunlight is just about readable but the thing is that the display is
cheap and has multiple video inputs so we can use it with a bullet cctv
camera for reversing (going astern ;-).

Any websites I have seen with reflective displays usually don't display
price ie. if you need to ask then it's too expensive...

Hope this helps


Markdj
http://www.stronge.org.uk

Here's your competition: http://www.bigbaytech.com/index.htm. These
guys have a complete line of marine computing equipment, including
desktops, laptops, daylight viewable and weather resistant displays,
etc. I have one of their bookshelf computers permanently installed for
navigation and love it.

wrote:

Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion
is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really
designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive
ruggedized version.

I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a
company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to
the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup
format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email
address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it
market research.

I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating
community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and
marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing
it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are
out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what
features are you looking for?

Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are
inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC
input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards,
and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may
be useful on your boat?

Thanks in advance for any ideas!


If it cannot be used as a satellite antenna pointing controller and
tv receiver, game toy, sound system, battery charging controller and
internet surfer, forget it.

Who wants to fiddle with a computer whilst sailing? Unless maybe if
it can refill a drink by voice command, and take over navigation and
steering completely, without crippling all functions if it develops
a minor heat or humidity glitch.

Conversley, who wants to fiddle with a boat whilst surfing the new
reality?

Naw, I think I'll stick with ropes made from my wifes hair,
meteorology by arthritis, and eatable pets, thanks.

I believe real sailors actually go sailing to get away from all that
crap, like in the good old days, where it was volunteer for naval
service or be dragged off to Devil's Island debtor's prison. Heck, I
don't even like using the radio while adventuring aboard, preferring
to adjust sail trim until I can steer by shifting body weight. The
crew thinks there are too many parades aboard, but who cares?

Besides, soon computers will be "free" in cereal boxes; peel and
stick to your thumbnail, autoimmune programmed, harnessed cancer
t-cell neuron growth connected, voices of Pseudo-God in your head,
stereo visions in your eyes, wireless advertising devices selling
software to synthesise designer drugs from your own metabolism, or
even expensive time out firewall widgets to quell the inundation.
Then, they will become mandatory and subject to licensing
verification inspections.

Security robots will taser on sight anyone without the newest free
and mandatory software and certain subsequent purchase codes.

Gee, I hope the big brother AI misses this post.

Terry K

All of the features below would make for a great boat pc.

I would also like a fully fucntioning pcmcia slot, not just the memory
reader type.

And if possible use the mini ITX board with lvds to drive the lcd.

Paul


"Len" wrote in message
...
On 17 Aug 2005 11:46:50 -0700, wrote:

Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution?
-------------------------snip----------------
Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Nice to write this letter to santa...

I want a fanless and solid state pc 512 mB memory, 1 gHz cpu with a
stabilized psu. I want it to be small so I can mount it in a small
locker.

I want wifi for hotspot internet acces

I want at least serial ports for connecting :
1 gps
2 ais
3 radar
4 cellphone for backup internet-acces
5 wind/depth/whatever
6 charger/inverter interface)

I want the connections to work optical, no galvanic connections.

I want an USB hub operating on the 12v psu for connecting
hard drive as a external unit
dvd reader/burner as an external unit
digital camera
mp3-player
memory sticks
whatever

In stead of at the back of the pc I want "remote" connectors for this
USB hub. I want to mount these usb-connectors in my panel next to my
chart table so I just stick the connector in the built in connector
next to my screen when I want.

I want a soundcard, for my car radio. I want to play the mp3's through
the car radio and I want to record from the car radio/digital tv
I also want mike-input for skype comms.

I want a 17" lcd screen to look at sitting at my charttable, 12 volts
(from the stabilazed psu) I also want a second lcd (15", bright,
rugged and waterproof but reasonably priced) in the cockpit.
Both with speakers built in. So: I want dual video out for both lcd's.
The one in the cockpit via a long vga cable.

I want to connect 2 trackballs, one mounted on my charttable,one in
the cockpit

Well lets leave at this for the time being.
Are you still there ?

Regards, Len.

This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah,
I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have
something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of
these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on
which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling
monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily
connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution,
costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so
(please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module
provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one
PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to
bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't
really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop
industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external
monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

wrote in message
oups.com...
- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

If those serial ports are to be used for nav instruments, it would be safer
to use a multiplexer, connected to the PC through USB. If the PC fails (OS
crash or nav software crash) all NMEA data is still routed and combined
through the external multiplexer and available for repeaters, GPS and
autopilot, so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is
down.

Meindert

wrote:
This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len,
yeah, I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd
have something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met
some of these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not
impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't
really looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking
into as an accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting
idea. You want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra
external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of
modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really
small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage
drives, etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD
just depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another
card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending
on which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into
selling monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he
could easily connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2
monitor solution, costs about $12 (not including the monitors or
trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing
so (please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS
module provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an
all in one PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be
another cable to bring that connection to the outside of the PC case,
but there isn't really a standard for external LVDS (that I can
find). The desktop industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for
connecting an external monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

I'm sure the market will be huge. Of the order of about 30. It's been tried
before, and the guys who tried it eventually took up sailing.

Meindert Sprang wrote:
.... so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is
down.

and of you're using Windows...you know it's not if but when it goes down

"Len" wrote in message
...
Eric,

Glad you're still here... :-)

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.
Of course there are multiplexers but I'd like to avoid added
complexity.

But added safety.

Larry mentioned another type of port for nmea. Can't these
be used?

Larry probably mentioned my multiplexers too :-)

I lack real understanding here. All I know I want to connect
multiple nmea talkers like gps, wind, depth, compass, ais, and I want
to let my nav prog talk to my autopilot.

And if your nav program or the computer goes down, you have nothing. With a
multiplexer, you can still feed the GPS data to the autopilot, because for
instance the ones that I produce, automatically fall back to a pass-through
mode where the GPS data directly goes to the autopilot when the connected
computer does not send any data for more than 10 seconds.

Talking of usb, I find this tech somewhat disappointing regarding
power supply. When I want to connect my usb-stick wifi-antenna the
show stops when I use a cable of 3 meters. XP says tehere something
wrong with the power supply.

That is because USB can feed only 500mA to a device. Wifi uses a lot of
power, so I'm not surprised that with 3m of cable, the voltgage drop is too
high.

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).
What I meant was it should be very simple to deal with a hdu-crash,
the biggest risk remaining when the pc is solid state. In my thoughts
I only have external hdu's and would keep say two external hdu's
"synchronized" so when one fails I have a near 100% backup including
OS and installed software I only have to connect my other unit: up and
running again in a minute.

It would be better in this case, to install XP Embedded, which can run from
a CF card without wearing out the limited write cycles of a CF card. The
card can be used write-protected so a crash can NEVER distroy your OS
installation. Put the nav software on the same card and load the charts from
a harddisk or SB stick, which you can easily upgrade. You can even install a
second XP on the harddisk, use this for entertainment while using the CF
installation for navigation only.

Meindert