Gee - Meindert,
Where do you think that might come from?
(Actually, that is a real good idea, but with the number of boats out
there that have one circuit for "radio" and the VHF and the stereo are
both on the same fuse, I'm not sure it would be easy to sell.)
Matt Colie

Meindert Sprang wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.


If those serial ports are to be used for nav instruments, it would be safer
to use a multiplexer, connected to the PC through USB. If the PC fails (OS
crash or nav software crash) all NMEA data is still routed and combined
through the external multiplexer and available for repeaters, GPS and
autopilot, so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is
down.

Meindert

Eric,

Glad you're still here... :-)

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.
Of course there are multiplexers but I'd like to avoid added
complexity. Larry mentioned another type of port for nmea. Can't these
be used? I lack real understanding here. All I know I want to connect
multiple nmea talkers like gps, wind, depth, compass, ais, and I want
to let my nav prog talk to my autopilot.
Non-nmea would be my cell phone and my Victron inverter/charger that I
want to monitor/program by pc.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

Bulkhead, that was the term I was looking for, thanks.
The answer is yes. I'd like to connect the peripheral in a simple way,
with having to play the acrobat.
A hub with say 4 connectors to build into the bulkhead would do.
Talking of usb, I find this tech somewhat disappointing regarding
power supply. When I want to connect my usb-stick wifi-antenna the
show stops when I use a cable of 3 meters. XP says tehere something
wrong with the power supply.

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).
What I meant was it should be very simple to deal with a hdu-crash,
the biggest risk remaining when the pc is solid state. In my thoughts
I only have external hdu's and would keep say two external hdu's
"synchronized" so when one fails I have a near 100% backup including
OS and installed software I only have to connect my other unit: up and
running again in a minute. (Maybe this one appeals to the anxiety many
pc-owners have imo about pc-reliability. Combine this with the fact
navigational software and charts become more an more vital (sometimes
even too vital when you ask me), and you have a major reassuring
advantage to offer).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.
Oh, I also want to be sure I'll wake up when my anchor moves: my
anchor alarm should not just "beep" like a scared mouse over 15 feet
away but should really wake me even when sleeping in my bunk after 2/3
nights without much sleep, of course with minimal power consumption.

Regards, Len.









































This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah,
I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have
something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of
these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on
which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling
monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily
connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution,
costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so
(please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module
provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one
PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to
bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't
really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop
industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external
monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

VIA is too slow. Base it on a pentium M. There are itx boards available
for that processor.


wrote in message
oups.com...
This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah,
I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have
something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of
these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on
which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling
monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily
connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution,
costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so
(please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module
provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one
PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to
bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't
really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop
industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external
monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most laptops.
Let me give some observations.

0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative of
energy as well.

1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally destroyed by a
half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The laptop was closed and
in hibernation mode. The water went under it. Everything but the case and
display needed to be replaced.

2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not easily
moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple small
wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the back would be oh
so much nicer.

3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are available
standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17" UXGA monitor except
on laptops.

4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the internet
cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a backup for when one
of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as well as the component
system.

5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it. I
think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing.



wrote in message
ups.com...
Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion
is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really
designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive
ruggedized version.

I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a
company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to
the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup
format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email
address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it
market research.

I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating
community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and
marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing
it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are
out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what
features are you looking for?

Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are
inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC
input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards,
and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may
be useful on your boat?

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

How about a Fujitsu tablet PC with a Otterbox waterproof case.
http://www.otterbox.com/products/pc_cases/index.htm


"Phil Stanton" wrote in message
...
Equally I have been hunting for a sunlight viewable screen. Apparently
what is wanted is a transflective LCD screen which uses sunlight to
brighten the image. Just using powerful backlights doesn't work because
a) they really can not compete with the sun for brilliance,
and b) they will use a lot of power.
Having found your screen, you need to be able to control the computer, so
a touch screen is the way to go. So here come the snags. Using a resistive
or capacitative touchscreen adds a piece of "glass" to the front of the
transflective screen. You loose about 15% of the sunlight going in, and a
further 15% of the light coming out ( almost 30% on a sunny day).
Apparently there are other touchscreen technologies such as Infra Red (IR)
which does not use a covering piece of glass, but there are questions here
whether the cursor follows the rain running down the screen.
Additional problems with regards to waterproofing. Apparently there is a
waterproof standard of IP65.
A number of manufacturers have it "just round the corner" but I'll believe
it when I see it. Prices quoted to me for a 12.1" screen vary between
£1200 to £2400.


"MDJ" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have been looking for a PDA reflective type for some time now but
what we do have is a Solarism 15inch high brightness monitor. It is
mounted inside a cut down electric box which has a fan assisted durad
box on the rear to keep the display cool.

http://princessownersclub.fotopic.net/p595958.html

That is the actual view from the display on a bright cloudy day. Direct
sunlight is just about readable but the thing is that the display is
cheap and has multiple video inputs so we can use it with a bullet cctv
camera for reversing (going astern ;-).

Any websites I have seen with reflective displays usually don't display
price ie. if you need to ask then it's too expensive...

Hope this helps


Markdj
http://www.stronge.org.uk

We have a wireless trackball which can be used inside at the helm or
taken up to the flybridge for controlling PC there so a touchscreen is
unnecessary. I agree that a LCD transflective is the way to go but you
find me a 15inch 1024x768 transflective display for resonabl emoney and
I'll be happy.... the solarism we have uses backlighting and was about
=A3350...

Good cruising


Mdj

I am with you on this idea. I have been building my own pc's for 13
years now and am working out what to build into a boat I recently
bought. I will be watching this thread with great interest.

I se no reason to take up desktop or tabletop space with a laptop when I
can build the components inside a compartment instead. I'll also have my
own choices for keyboards, displays, and other devices. I am thinking of
working from a Shuttle-X base.

One thing I am considering is being able to run the OS and primary
programs from flash drives while sailing. 1 gig drives are common now
and I expect size will increase and cost will drop over the next year.
Why have a spinning hard drive when it can be avoided for much of the
time? When dockside and doing my heavy duty work and surfing I have no
problem spinning up a hard drive.

wrote in message
...
One thing I am considering is being able to run the OS and primary
programs from flash drives while sailing. 1 gig drives are common now
and I expect size will increase and cost will drop over the next year.

Make sure your OS is suitable for that. A normal windows installation will
wear out the flash disk in no time. You'll need XP Embedded to make sure it
does not write registry, log ans swapfiles files to the flashdisk
"millisecond".

Why have a spinning hard drive when it can be avoided for much of the
time? When dockside and doing my heavy duty work and surfing I have no
problem spinning up a hard drive.

A good solution is to mount a 2.5" laptop drive in a shock-absorbing frame
into a 3.5" drive bay. Indrustial computer suppliers carry these. Very
robust.

Meindert

johnhh wrote:
I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most
laptops. Let me give some observations.

0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative
of energy as well.

1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally
destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The
laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it.
Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced.

2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not
easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple
small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the
back would be oh so much nicer.

3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are
available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17"
UXGA monitor except on laptops.

4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the
internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a
backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as
well as the component system.

5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it.
I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing.

You can overcome some of these problems by using a port replicator with the
laptop, but likewise, I think this is all getting too much for we sailors,
the amount of time I have on passage with only two up is about 5% for
navigation, so why go to all this hassle and expense? On a coastal passage,
I can SEE most of my "waypoints" in real time and in 3D, not on a PC screen!

On 2005-08-20 19:59:49 +1000, "Dennis Pogson"
said:

johnhh wrote:
I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most
laptops. Let me give some observations.

0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative
of energy as well.

1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally
destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The
laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it.
Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced.

2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not
easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple
small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the
back would be oh so much nicer.

3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are
available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17"
UXGA monitor except on laptops.

4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the
internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a
backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as
well as the component system.

5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it.
I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing.

You can overcome some of these problems by using a port replicator with the
laptop, but likewise, I think this is all getting too much for we sailors,
the amount of time I have on passage with only two up is about 5% for
navigation, so why go to all this hassle and expense? On a coastal passage,
I can SEE most of my "waypoints" in real time and in 3D, not on a PC screen!

Once again the voice of reason strikes a resounding note. Passage
planning, ok the computer is great for that. Loading waypoints into a
GPS ok too. But while single handing I'm much too busy to spend time
looking at a PC screen. Even a chart plotter is not really that much
use. So I'll stick with the paper on board and my MKII eyball for the
moment.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall