Are these cables tinned?

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Marc wrote in news:icn1p154hlstmjnpe0pl1io0mrr3lrlmhe@
4ax.com:

10ga. wire from the buss to the panel. Any downside to that?



10 ga is good for about 20 amps. Let's not have the lights dim every
time you turn on something else, or the bilge pump comes on, ****ing off
the wife. Let's just go whole hog and put in a heavy #4 or #2 ground bus
to battery post cable so it won't drop any voltage just because someone
switches on a fan.

Shhh....don't tell anyone. Lionheart's ground uses a #0 finely stranded
primary wire used by those boombox boys pulling a thousand amps in their
huge car stereos. The wiring used for these custom car stereo
installations is the finest heavy cable and is VERY flexible, not stiff
like the cheap battery cable crap from a marine store you can hardly bend
with 2 hands. The lights only dim a little when the windlass is under a
strain...(c;

Another great cable to use for these very heavy cables is WELDING CABLES
available from welding supply places. It isn't as "pretty" as car stereo
cable, but is rugged enough to withstand constant commercial use in
welding for years and years.

I just happen to have a stash of car stereo cable pieces when I need
them, or I'd be using finely stranded, flexible welding cable, myself.

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 04:42:36 -0800, "johnhh"
wrote:

Are these cables tinned?

Some Welding cable is. The Hi-flex other cable that I use is not.
Bear in mind that I wire boats for freshwater Inland Waterways in the
UK. Your query is certainly valid for true Marine applications, point
noted.

Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S

wrote in
:

The only downside is one needs "bellmouthed" crimp lugs as trying to
insert in standard chamfered lugs is a PITA



No, one needs SOLDER CUP lugs...(c; Soldering is NOT a sin! I checked
with a priest. My whole 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D uses solder cup
connectors and has for the past 32 years.

I pulled one apart with fine-stranded #0 welding cable that was soldered
in a cup to see how strong it is. The solder held past when the copper
up in the cable parted...Strong enough? A crimp isn't near as strong.
New solder is much stronger than old LEAD solder.

"johnhh" wrote in news:77KdnTmy_
:

Are these cables tinned?


Yes, right after I put the big soldering copper iron to them properly. All
big lugs are properly soldered and are stronger than the cable, itself, by
actual test....not old wives tales of 1930.

No battery cable is crimped.

Do you use the same kind of lug that you use for crimping? I wish I hadn't
just put in new cables. What a pain getting them to the switches. Maybe
I'll replace them.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"johnhh" wrote in news:77KdnTmy_
:

Are these cables tinned?


Yes, right after I put the big soldering copper iron to them properly.
All
big lugs are properly soldered and are stronger than the cable, itself, by
actual test....not old wives tales of 1930.

No battery cable is crimped.

"johnhh" wrote in
:

Do you use the same kind of lug that you use for crimping? I wish I
hadn't just put in new cables. What a pain getting them to the
switches. Maybe I'll replace them.


No. There are lugs with a solder cup instead of the open-hole-through
crimp with the wire ends sticking out towards the lug. The solder cups
can be filled, carefully, without running out the other end. Buy copper
lugs, not aluminum. You can't solder to aluminum anything.

Your cables are fine if the wire's heavy enough. What I like about
properly soldered connections is:
1 - no seawater can get to the connection as the solder makes a solid
connection across the whole surface of both lug and wires. There's no
gap like a crimp for moisture to get into and corrode all to hell.
Without moisture in the joint, the joint has no electrolysis.

2 - The connecting surface area of a crimped lug is the point contact
area between the outer conductors of the wire and the points at which it
touches the lug's interior. The connecting surface area of a soldered
joint is the entire surface area of both. They are fully bonded
together. The current gradient across the soldered joint is very smooth
with no hot spots caused by point contact crimping. No conductors of the
soldered joint were pressure snapped off during a crimping process. The
soldered wire, if you avoid "wicking" like you learn in a good soldering
class up into the conductors beyond the lug, is very tightly joined.

So, why don't they solder all connections to make them great?......

M-O-N-E-Y, same as why the other stuff is such crap. Proper solder
bonding takes way too much time and skill for production work.

Strong? I can pick up a whole L-16 deep cycle by one battery cable
without the solder parting. Strong enough??...(c;

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:07:27 -0500, Larry wrote:

wrote in
:

The only downside is one needs "bellmouthed" crimp lugs as trying to
insert in standard chamfered lugs is a PITA



No, one needs SOLDER CUP lugs...(c; Soldering is NOT a sin! I checked
with a priest. My whole 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D uses solder cup
connectors and has for the past 32 years.

I pulled one apart with fine-stranded #0 welding cable that was soldered
in a cup to see how strong it is. The solder held past when the copper
up in the cable parted...Strong enough? A crimp isn't near as strong.
New solder is much stronger than old LEAD solder.

I or my customers cannot afford the time required to solder 50mm2
cable. I use an Hydraulic crimper which creates an hexagonal crimp.
Strong enough? Yes. I do not hang the battery bank on the cables ;-)
A typical 24V bank requires about 20 crimps a few seconds for each
plus a little more time to heatshrink a coloured sleeve over the shank
and cable.
Also burn back of the insulation can be a problem together with
wicking of the solder up the fine stranded cable.
I have never done a pull test on such a crimp, maybe I could borrow
your Merc to try? ;-)
However I have cut one through and polished the cut face. Looked good
to me!
No its crimp for me every time.
Each to his own!

It is interesting to note that Nigel Calder does not now recommend
welding cable for marine applications, he also suggests that "The
consensus among professionals is that a properly made crimp, done with
the proper tools, is frequently a more reliable termination than
soldering".

Bear in mind that my installations are Inland Waterways.

Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 01:31:30 -0500, Larry wrote:
Snip
No. There are lugs with a solder cup instead of the open-hole-through
crimp with the wire ends sticking out towards the lug. The solder cups
can be filled, carefully, without running out the other end. Buy copper
lugs, not aluminum. You can't solder to aluminum anything.

Your cables are fine if the wire's heavy enough. What I like about
properly soldered connections is:
1 - no seawater can get to the connection as the solder makes a solid
connection across the whole surface of both lug and wires. There's no
gap like a crimp for moisture to get into and corrode all to hell.
Without moisture in the joint, the joint has no electrolysis.

2 - The connecting surface area of a crimped lug is the point contact
area between the outer conductors of the wire and the points at which it
touches the lug's interior.

Sorry Larry I cannot relate to your logic. Where does the pressure
come from to keep these "outer conductors" in contact with the
walls???
You have obviously never cut through a crimped lug , polished the face
and viewed under a microscope. Give it a try. Oh and do the same with
your soldered lug, fine polish mind I do not want you smearing that
solder over the voids ;-)

The connecting surface area of a soldered
joint is the entire surface area of both. They are fully bonded
together. The current gradient across the soldered joint is very smooth
with no hot spots caused by point contact crimping. No conductors of the
soldered joint were pressure snapped off during a crimping process. The
soldered wire, if you avoid "wicking" like you learn in a good soldering
class up into the conductors beyond the lug, is very tightly joined.

You say that you have used a "closed cup" lug. This indicates that you
are end feeding the solder at the cup - wire junction, and you do not
get any wickig? How do you guarantee that the solder has run to the
bottom of the cup? You may have a nice ring of solder around the edge
of the cup but how can you guarantee that all voids are filled?
You have obviously cut the insulation back to allow access to the cup,
how do you cover this open area? Do you tin the cable end first? How
do you do that without splaying the fine wires with your iron?
Just interested, as I say to each his own..
Snip

Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S

Soldering #0 &2/0 is not at all tough if you do it the easy way.

It does take a little thing holder (my box had a generation old vacuum
base vice) and a soldering gun. I have a pair of loose tip nuts in the
box for a 240 watt soldering gun.

Put the lug on the cable and clamp it in the vise.
Put the nuts only in the soldering gun.
Put the nuts up against the lug and pull the trigger.
= In a very short time the lug will start accepting solder.

It you get it right the insulation doesn't show any heat effect, but but
put shrink on it any way.

The only problem is that this pretty much does require shore power.

Matt Colie



Larry wrote:
wrote in
:


The only downside is one needs "bellmouthed" crimp lugs as trying to
insert in standard chamfered lugs is a PITA




No, one needs SOLDER CUP lugs...(c; Soldering is NOT a sin! I checked
with a priest. My whole 1973 Mercedes Benz 220D uses solder cup
connectors and has for the past 32 years.

I pulled one apart with fine-stranded #0 welding cable that was soldered
in a cup to see how strong it is. The solder held past when the copper
up in the cable parted...Strong enough? A crimp isn't near as strong.
New solder is much stronger than old LEAD solder.

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 08:30:22 -0500, Matt Colie
wrote:

Soldering #0 &2/0 is not at all tough if you do it the easy way.

It does take a little thing holder (my box had a generation old vacuum
base vice) and a soldering gun. I have a pair of loose tip nuts in the
box for a 240 watt soldering gun.

Put the lug on the cable and clamp it in the vise.
Put the nuts only in the soldering gun.
Put the nuts up against the lug and pull the trigger.
= In a very short time the lug will start accepting solder.

It you get it right the insulation doesn't show any heat effect, but but
put shrink on it any way.

The only problem is that this pretty much does require shore power.

Matt Colie
Sounds like a good option Matt. However shorepower is rarely
available, its bad enough heatshrinking with the gas powered hot air
gun. Maximum wattage I can find on a Weller in UK is 100W. The tools
used for plumbing work could be of interest though 2200W ;-)
I would still be concerned that all the heat was in the lug and little
in the cable though.
I will stay with my hydraulic crimper ;-)

Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S