So, now your saying your theory only applies to certain radios? Then you
shouldn't make blanket statements like you did. You mislead the average joe
who reads this newsgroup. It is not common knowledge and while it may be a
"fact" for "one" radio, it is certainly not a "fact" in general. I disproved
your statement on the Icom 735, and today I disproved it on the SEA222,
Icom-710, Icom-802, SEA235 and a Yaesu FT-897. I'm not disputing the fact
that minimizing voltage drops on an HF installation is of prime importance.
I just think you are way out of line making such a statement and claiming it
as a commonly understood fact.

Eric

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
It is commonly understood that for each volt dropped from 13.6 VDC
at the radios PowerAmp DC Terminals, you lose 50% of your PEP Power.
So if your at 13.6 Vdc you get your 150 PEP, and at 12.6 VDC you
get 75 PEP, and at 11.6 Vdc you get 35 PEP and below 11.0 VDC
the internal Voltage Regulators drop out of regulation and the
radio goes OFF.



It is not a Myth, is is a Fact, and as others have stated, your
experiment doesn't prove, or disprove the fact. Also, as Larry
stated the 21st Century Icom Rigs have a lot more headroom in the
SolidState Amps than just about any other Marine MF/HF Radio,
just to deal with this cause. Just try your experiment with ANY
SGC designed and built radio.

Bruce in Alaska wrote in news:bruceg-
:

Just try your experiment with ANY
SGC designed and built radio.


Whoa! Hang on! You'd never get an SGC out of the shop long enough to
complete the experiment! That wouldn't be fair....(c;

SGC SUCKS! Ask any ham....(c;

In article ,
"Eric Fairbank" wrote:

So, now your saying your theory only applies to certain radios? Then you
shouldn't make blanket statements like you did. You mislead the average joe
who reads this newsgroup. It is not common knowledge and while it may be a
"fact" for "one" radio, it is certainly not a "fact" in general. I disproved
your statement on the Icom 735, and today I disproved it on the SEA222,
Icom-710, Icom-802, SEA235 and a Yaesu FT-897. I'm not disputing the fact
that minimizing voltage drops on an HF installation is of prime importance.
I just think you are way out of line making such a statement and claiming it
as a commonly understood fact.

Eric

Eric, just how did you disprove this? Using the same setup that you
used in your original experiment? Well, now, why don't you try modifing
your setup and put 30Ft of #14 Wire from your very stiff powersupply to
the radios.
Now try the putput power test again, and come back and tell us all
what you find.

You see Bill Forgey, the Retired Chief Engineer at SEA, and I, did all
of these experiments years ago in the SEA Engineering LAB, and concluded
that yes, this was the case. One of the reasons that more headroom in
the HF Amplifier sections was a prime design factor in the SEA 322-330
Series Radios, but which still did not completely resolve the problem of
trying to operate a 20+ amp Current draw, thru a less than steller
Power Wire.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article , Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article ,
"Eric Fairbank" wrote:

So, now your saying your theory only applies to certain radios? Then you
shouldn't make blanket statements like you did. You mislead the average joe
who reads this newsgroup. It is not common knowledge and while it may be a
"fact" for "one" radio, it is certainly not a "fact" in general. I disproved
your statement on the Icom 735, and today I disproved it on the SEA222,
Icom-710, Icom-802, SEA235 and a Yaesu FT-897. I'm not disputing the fact
that minimizing voltage drops on an HF installation is of prime importance.
I just think you are way out of line making such a statement and claiming it
as a commonly understood fact.

Eric

Eric, just how did you disprove this? Using the same setup that you
used in your original experiment? Well, now, why don't you try modifing
your setup and put 30Ft of #14 Wire from your very stiff powersupply to
the radios.
Now try the putput power test again, and come back and tell us all
what you find.

You see Bill Forgey, the Retired Chief Engineer at SEA, and I, did all
of these experiments years ago in the SEA Engineering LAB, and concluded
that yes, this was the case. One of the reasons that more headroom in
the HF Amplifier sections was a prime design factor in the SEA 322-330
Series Radios, but which still did not completely resolve the problem of
trying to operate a 20+ amp Current draw, thru a less than steller
Power Wire.

Car audio caps can always beef up the supply transients needed for solid
state SSB and stereos.

greg

In article ,
"Lynn Coffelt" wrote:

Oh, my gosh, it's just killing me to sit here without jumping in! Then
when I heard SGC mentioned, I knew that someone besides me had experienced
"Bruce's Law". I am compelled to defend his position and scientific
observations without reservation.

How much midnight oil I've spent working on the DC supply system on
"commercial" vessels, trying to reduce the voltage drop. Until the "code"
made batterys in the pilot house almost mandatory, can't you imagine running
an SGC711 from engine room batterys? Here's a typical example (it is a
genuine "commercial", by the way) of a vessel still using this one time
popular rig:

http://www.alaskaboat.com/sn033.htm

Those SGC711's were hard to coax to even 75 watts PEP with any wire
less than #4 if you were more than two feet away from the battery! (OK,
stretching a little here) And the built-in wire antenna tuner was a charmer,
hey? But as the URL and dozens more can show, that not everyone has yet to
install an Icom M802.

Some earlier SEA's and Icom's with first generation digital VCO tuning
were cool, too. A sneeze or laugh in the mic was as apt to change channels
as anything if the antenna was fed directly from the radio, and some joker
installed #10 wire for DC power!

Early automatic antenna tuners were (are) cool, too. A little pitching
and rolling in the North Pacific and they would lock up and refuse to even
try to tune anymore. Then the transmitter's fabulous SWR power foldback
circuit hit the fan and 5 to 10 watts could be used to heat up the tuner's
coils and capacitors. (condensers, actually)

Lots of this early stuff is still out there. By the thousands. Modern
marine SSB radios certainly have improved their ability to survive poor
installations, but is that any reason to go as cheap as possible with DC
wiring and antenna installations? (RF ground on "Tupperware" boats is
probably just as important, but I digress)

Old Chief Lynn

(besides, tubes help heat the pilothouse and ease aching joints)

Ah Oh, I feel a Story coming on....

StonerWatts .... A Real Tale about MF/HF Marine Radio......

Years ago, I was working for Northern Radio, as a Field Tech/Radioman
and getting the Alaska State Ferries ready for their Annual SOLAS
Inspections. The State wanted to replace the venerable Northern N550
MF/HF SSB Radios with something totally SolidState, and had put out
the refit for BID. Well Don Stoner, and his partner PeeAir Gorrale,
wanted to get their SGC711 into the US Market, so they bid the job
really LOW, and got the contract to refit all the State Ferries.
Their guys did the installations, and had left the vessels, for
me to get them thru FCC/SOLAS Inspections. I did everything else, first
and left the MF/HF Radio's for last, and when I finnally got around to
doing the preinspection testing, found that all but one wouldn't meet
Frequency Tolerance, and NONE of them would meet PowerOutput Requirments,
using the accepted Testing Procedures, expected by the FCC Field
Engineers, of the day. I got ahold of the Port Captain, and explained
the problem, and since these radios were NEW and under Warrentee (sp)
that it was SGC's problem to rectify, but since the Inspection was setup
for the next morning, SGC better get their collective Ass in gear, or the
ships would fail the Inspection and not be ready to sail on schedual.
SGC was summoned and one of their Field Techs reset all the Crystal
Frequencies and did his best to get the Power Output up to spec's.

They worked all night on the first boat due for inspection, and when I
showed up, one hour before Inspection time, the Power problem still
wasn't resolved. Finally, the Tech, called his office and Don Stoner,
drove out, and showed up just as Bob Zinns, the FCC Engineer, did and
they came aboard together. While Bob and I went thru all the other
Inspection Items, don worked on the 711. After 2 hours, Bob and I were
ready to do the MF/HF Radio Inpsection, and we were presented with Don
Stoner, and his very expensive Tek Storage OScope, connected across a 50
Ohm Dummy Load, and he said he would demonstrate the Power Output of the
711 with this Test Setup. Mr. Zinns looked very skeptical, and I didn't
say a word, but Don proceeded with his demontration. He picked the Mic
and mashed the PTT and sope the test phrase "Five, five, five", into the
mic. He had the Storage Oscope set to capture the Peak Voltage Pulse of
the transmission, and then showed the assembliadge the reading, and got
out his calculator, and computed the PEAK Envelope Power for that, very
narrow Pulse. "Yup" he said, "just exactly 152 PEP Watts". Mr Zinns
asked hm to demonstrate that on a Peak Reading Bird WattMeter, and Don
stated that he would not, that his demonstation was sufficent. Mr Zinns
took out an 801 PinkSlip and Failed the vessels SOLAS Inspection, citing
the lack of spec'd Transmit Output Power. I tested the radio, in the
accepted way using a Bird Wattmeter, and found that we could get maybe
80 Watts PEP out of it with a Maximum Scream in the Mic. Everyone went
home and the FCC and SGC had a WAR of Fax's and Phonecalls, between the
Seattle Field Offce, FCC Headquarters, State of Alaska Ferry Systems,
Port Captain, and SGC, ect. After three days of this, it was determined
by the FCC's Chief Engineer, that Don Stoner's method of testing did in
fact prove that the radio was in compliance, and that the FCC Field
Offices would accept that method of testing, for the SGC711 only, and
Issue SOLAS Certificates for the Alaska State Ferries which had SGC711
Radios fitted.
The long and short of the story is: All the SGC's were stripped off all
the Alaska State Ferries within 6 Months, for the simple reason that
they couldn't talk to any of their regular BaseStations, on a consistant
basis, as they were used to doing with the N550's previously fitted.
All were replace with Icom's first generation MF/HF Radios that actually
would "Whistle up" to 150PEP on a Wattmenter. Northern Radio continued
to do all the FCC/SOLAS Annual Inspections, untill I left the company.
The State of Alaska Communications Shop, took over the job
and was still doing it when I joined the FCC a few years later, as the
Southeastern Alaska Resident Field Agent and started doing the FCC/SOLAS
Inspection on the Alaska Ferries as the FCC Inspector.
The StonerWatts Story is still around in FCC Lore, and told in Marine
Radio Shops, all around the North Pacific.


Bruce in alaska just cause you can see the spike on a scope doesn't
mean you can actually talk to someone......
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
Matt Colie wrote:

Let's just watch out here. I was in a junk shop a while ago and I told
the proprietor what was actually hoping to find. We got talking about
ships and boats. He stopped and asked if I could tell him about
something in back. When retrieved, it turned out to be a marine HF -
real live dinosaur (dynosoar?). I think is was Hammerlund or EF Johnson
- most of the crystals had been pulled, but it still had a the 2 1625s
in the final (and a little burned spot on the tank). I looked at him
and said "You know - They haven't made 'em like this for a long time".
(Aren't we glad!)

Matt Colie - Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor

A lot of the OLD Northern Radio Co. AM Sets had 807/1625's in them.
when I started at Northern, we still were servicing those and I have
very fond memorries of traveling all over the State of Alaska, hauling
a RCA Tube Caddy full of 807's, 1625's, 811's and an 813 or two....
I even remember when we used 866A's in the Power supplies, as
Recitifiers.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

I'm just shaking my head here Bruce. You keep changing your story. I
disagree with your original blanket statement which was not in reference to
old SGC rigs or installations with 30ft of #14 wire. Jeez!

Eric

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
Eric, just how did you disprove this? Using the same setup that you
used in your original experiment? Well, now, why don't you try modifing
your setup and put 30Ft of #14 Wire from your very stiff powersupply to
the radios.
Now try the putput power test again, and come back and tell us all
what you find.

So, now your saying your theory only applies to certain radios? Then
you
shouldn't make blanket statements like you did. You mislead the average
joe
who reads this newsgroup. It is not common knowledge and while it may
be a
"fact" for "one" radio, it is certainly not a "fact" in general. I
disproved
your statement on the Icom 735, and today I disproved it on the SEA222,
Icom-710, Icom-802, SEA235 and a Yaesu FT-897. I'm not disputing the
fact
that minimizing voltage drops on an HF installation is of prime
importance.
I just think you are way out of line making such a statement and
claiming it
as a commonly understood fact.

Eric

Eric, just how did you disprove this? Using the same setup that you
used in your original experiment? Well, now, why don't you try modifing
your setup and put 30Ft of #14 Wire from your very stiff powersupply to
the radios.
Now try the putput power test again, and come back and tell us all
what you find.

You see Bill Forgey, the Retired Chief Engineer at SEA, and I, did all
of these experiments years ago in the SEA Engineering LAB, and concluded
that yes, this was the case. One of the reasons that more headroom in
the HF Amplifier sections was a prime design factor in the SEA 322-330
Series Radios, but which still did not completely resolve the problem of
trying to operate a 20+ amp Current draw, thru a less than steller
Power Wire.

Bruce

Car audio caps can always beef up the supply transients needed for solid
state SSB and stereos.

greg

You bet! the big capacitors (condensers, really) were often used here to
help SSB rigs "whistle" or "five, five, five" up near ratings. In fact the
internal big filter capacitors in bench test power supplies contributed
trouble pinpointing the problems bringing rigs up to snuff. When the DC
power wire resistance caused momentary voltage drops in a real world
installation, the Simpson 260 couldn't see what the voltage actually was
during PEP peaks. Just a little needle quiver. (forget the digital VOM....
it read all over the place) When you finally sweated and groaned the old
Tektronics scope (me..... Heathkit) up on the ship/boat, the cause of
channel changing, low power and tuner lock-up became clear. Once in a while
a quick BIG cap across the SSB power terminals just before we took Bob Z
aboard would do the trick.

I enjoyed your Peeair story, Bruce, I know Don must be rolling over in the
grave. (I did like Don's little active (Dymek?) antenna, though, to get the
WEFAX antenna up and away from the digital noise disaster in the pilot
house)

Old Chief Lynn

"Lynn Coffelt" wrote in news:du5fag$v08$1
@emma.aioe.org:

When you finally sweated and groaned the old
Tektronics scope (me..... Heathkit) up on the ship/boat, the cause of
channel changing, low power and tuner lock-up became clear.

Hey, Chief! Wanna borrow my little Fluke handheld storage scope?...(c;

http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...87&eventPage=1

They got a new color one with 200 Mhz bandwidth and two channels to drool
over, now. Digital persistence....(c;

Bruce in Alaska wrote in news:bruceg-
:

I even remember when we used 866A's in the Power supplies, as
Recitifiers.



Yecch.....flashovers! Been there, done that....

Bruce, have you seen what an AM transmitter looks like, now? A 50KW AM
broadcast transmitter uses POWERTAB transistors for final output stages!

http://hawkins.pair.com/wabcnow/wabcn14.jpg

That little board puts out 1KW with 240VDC applied...

Amazing. A 50KW broadcast transmitter cooled with muffin fans....55KW from
the power company...50KW to the antenna!