Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The
complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house
bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There
are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a
1/2/Both at the engine.

The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it
is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement
switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville
is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated.
I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I
could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how
it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded.
The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring.

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to
a switch?

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:aNbJf.163191$WH.30518@dukeread01:

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator
out to a switch?



Nope....It's grounded to the case of the alternator. Sorry....

BTW, if you switch off the alternator's DC connection it may NOT turn off
the alternator, which may run on its own starting magnetism, anyway.

Lionheart has two 1-2-BOTH switches. The left switch switches the two
big L-16 bank house batteries, but does NOT switch the house 180A
alternator, which is separately connected directly to the batteries by a
huge diode isolator so the alternator cannot be connected to the house
(and of course a zillion dollars in electronics) without being connected
to the batteries.

The second switch is the battery switch for the Perkins 4-108 starter.
Position 2 connects the Perkins starter to its independent starting
battery. Position 1 has a very short jumper that connects the house
battery switch common to the starting switch position 1, so I can start
the engine off either house battery bank...or both house battery
banks...or the normally-connected starting battery...or everything-all-
connected-in-parallel-if-we-have-to....

The starting system's little 80A alternator is connected directly to the
starting battery, but should the house monster alternator fail, flipping
the battery switches to everything-all-connected-in-parallel-if-we-have-
to will charge all the banks from the 80A starting alternator, anyways.
Just set both battery switches to "BOTH" and it'll all charge
together....redundantly...(c;

Battery switches are located on the lip of the engine compartment cover
in the center cockpit of the Amel Sharki ketch, keeping all these heavy
cables really short. Power-R-Us....

Bin the changeover switches and diodes and get a Smartbank. Then any
number of charging devices can run at the same time.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/diodes2.html

Hi Glen;
Of course if you add a relay you can switch just about anything. You could open the yanmar and redirect either of the field wires through the relay. Warranties are for wusses anyway.
I would connect both alternators directly to their battery / battery banks. I realize most authorities don’t like that. So;
Presumably if your start battery is switched off, the engine can’t be started and your Yanmar is therefore safe without field coil intervention.
The big alternator is more of a problem; being [I presume] battery sensed, if it’s run while disconnected from the battery it will destroy itself.
I just had a rotor melt down from that myself... luckily where I am right now I could get it rewound [right on spec too] for $15.
Why not switch them the other way; Yanmar on the simple switch [since it won’t start when off] and use the clever switch with field cutout on the house side where you can set it up to protect the Leece-Nevile.
If connected to “Both”, your house battery bank will still start the engine.
Anyway, just wanted to say to be sure you wire you alternators so they can’t power up when disconnected.
Regards, Mark Holden


My adjustable alternator regulator; www.amsterdamhouseboats.nl\voltage_regulator.htm

While I will go along with what that site says about diodes, the article on
charge controllers lost credibility with me very quickly. First of all
modern stock alternators are not set at 14.4V as he contends. My brother's
new gas guzzling SUV is set at 13.8V as is my wife's 2006 Honda. He also
contends that modern batteries do not require 3 stage regulators for the
most efficient charging. Virtually every deep cycle battery maker
recommends 3 stage charging.

Regardless diodes would not apply to my situation running separate systems
for house and start banks. The two systems are isolated except for the
ground and the 1/2/both switch which will only be used for emergency starts.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bin the changeover switches and diodes and get a Smartbank. Then any
number of charging devices can run at the same time.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/diodes2.html

Glenn, I seem to have missed the reason you want to use a different
regulator on the Yanmar alternator.

Are you having problems with the stock regulator/battery combination?

If you use the staring battery only for starting, it should last a very
long time with the stock regulator. Except for being able to perhaps
control the float voltage, a multi-stage regulator is not likely to add
much life or reliability to your starting battery. The multi-stage
regulator's real benefit is that it can restore a lot of energy more
quickly than the stock regulator. That is never a requirement for a
starting battery in normal use since the starting function draws very
little energy from the battery. It ought to stay at very close to full
charge under normal running conditions. Unfortunately, the same cannot
usually be said for house batteries that are often discharged to 50% or
less of capacity.

Hundreds of millions of starting batteries live very happily with stock
regulators in cars, trucks, buses, boats, etc.

Chuck


Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The
complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house
bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There
are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a
1/2/Both at the engine.

The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it
is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement
switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville
is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated.
I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I
could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how
it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded.
The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring.

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to
a switch?

Glenn,

I too have two alternators, stock that I use for the starter battery
and a large LN for the house battery. But in my configuration I do
not use any 1/2/all switches on the alternator feeds. Just keep it
simple: The stock alt goes to the Starter battery, and the LN goes to
the house battery...

Where I do use master switches is in the feeds to the sub-pannels.

On the House DC Sub Pannel I have an on/off switch to the House
battery. This is a master disconnect and does tie into the LN field
ckt. For the Nav sub DC pannel I use an A/B/All switch so I can
select to feed it from the house battery (Normal), or put it over to
the Starter battery (backup). Wired this way it also give me a way to
connect the two systems together if needed (very unusual situation).
I do not have a cut-off switch on the starter batter.

I did it this way to keep the two systems 100% Issolated and simple.
Buy putting the A/B switch on the DC Sub Pannel feeds (instead of the
alternator outputs) I can gain reliability without making the
charging system complex.

-al-


On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:53:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The
complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house
bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There
are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a
1/2/Both at the engine.

The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it
is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement
switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville
is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated.
I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I
could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how
it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded.
The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring.

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to
a switch?

The problem I have with your set up is that I have a surveyor coming by
every 6 months during construction and reporting back to my insurance
company. Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says
I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I
will get a nasty letter.

I have found two solutions though. The stock Hitachi/Yanmar alternator is
an N type and the negative side of the regulator comes out of the case on a
terminal that is tied to the ground terminal. The other is that banks under
800 CCA don't have to be isolated.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Al Thomason" wrote in message
...
Glenn,

I too have two alternators, stock that I use for the starter battery
and a large LN for the house battery. But in my configuration I do
not use any 1/2/all switches on the alternator feeds. Just keep it
simple: The stock alt goes to the Starter battery, and the LN goes to
the house battery...

Where I do use master switches is in the feeds to the sub-pannels.

On the House DC Sub Pannel I have an on/off switch to the House
battery. This is a master disconnect and does tie into the LN field
ckt. For the Nav sub DC pannel I use an A/B/All switch so I can
select to feed it from the house battery (Normal), or put it over to
the Starter battery (backup). Wired this way it also give me a way to
connect the two systems together if needed (very unusual situation).
I do not have a cut-off switch on the starter batter.

I did it this way to keep the two systems 100% Issolated and simple.
Buy putting the A/B switch on the DC Sub Pannel feeds (instead of the
alternator outputs) I can gain reliability without making the
charging system complex.

-al-


On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:53:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The
complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house
bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There
are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a
1/2/Both at the engine.

The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it
is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement
switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The
Leece-Neville
is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated.
I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side
I
could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how
it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded.
The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring.

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out
to
a switch?

I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a
master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the
'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes
all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN
alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to
the House Battery with separate wiring)

On the Starter Battery I have no switch on it, so no need to worry
about the field on the stock motor alt. 11.7.1.2.1. calls out that
no isolation switch is needed for batteries under 800 CCA. Note also
that exception 2B allows 'battery Charging equipment' to be directly
connected to the batteries, even those over 800 CCA. Note also that
exception 2B allows for direct connect of the bilge pumps. So, all
is OK with ABYC specs.

I do feed the LN field through the House Battery master switch. That
is easy as I have converted it to an external regulator (as you said
you did also). But in practice I never touch this master switch. It
truly is there only for emergency and maintenance use. When leaving
the boat I turn things off by the Sub Panels.


BTW: These LN alternators are tuff things... Real 'large frame', can
get them for around $250 or so on eBay, and my alt puts out 145A at
idle (Hot and measured). And if you need more current, just run two
in parallel

Also, have really enjoyed watching your progress and your web site.

-al-


On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:58:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:
SNIP
Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says
I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I
will get a nasty letter.

Err,

Brain Fade.. Starter battery is larger then 800 CCA (it is an 8D),
but exception 2C allows the motor alternator to be directly connected.
There is nothing else connected to the starter batter (only motor
operation and starter).

I do feed one side of the A/B/All 'nav' sub-pannel to the starter
battery, but that is through a switch so again am OK there as well.

-al-


On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:26:31 -0800, Al Thomason
wrote:

I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a
master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the
'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes
all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN
alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to
the House Battery with separate wiring)

On the Starter Battery I have no switch on it, so no need to worry
about the field on the stock motor alt. 11.7.1.2.1. calls out that
no isolation switch is needed for batteries under 800 CCA. Note also
that exception 2C allows 'battery Charging equipment' to be directly
connected to the batteries, even those over 800 CCA. Note also that
exception 2B allows for direct connect of the bilge pumps. So, all
is OK with ABYC specs.

I do feed the LN field through the House Battery master switch. That
is easy as I have converted it to an external regulator (as you said
you did also). But in practice I never touch this master switch. It
truly is there only for emergency and maintenance use. When leaving
the boat I turn things off by the Sub Panels.


BTW: These LN alternators are tuff things... Real 'large frame', can
get them for around $250 or so on eBay, and my alt puts out 145A at
idle (Hot and measured). And if you need more current, just run two
in parallel

Also, have really enjoyed watching your progress and your web site.

-al-


On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:58:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:
SNIP
Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says
I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I
will get a nasty letter.