Hows that chart in the fog?
G
"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
t...
And let's hope they actually start discusssing the security risks
associated with this idea.

What security risks would that be?

Invalid data being improperly uploaded from an authorized source.

I sure hope not. Electronic devices fail and radio frequencies can be
jammed or interferred with.

Paper maps can be misprinted. They can get destroyed accidentally, and
buoys
can be moved by storms and collisions. A compass can be damaged and also
interfered with by magnetic sources on the ship or in the waters. They
too
are not 100% reliable.

And a chartplotter's electronics can die at hundreds of different points
of
failure. Even something as simple a blown backlight on the LCD can render
it useless. To say nothing of corrosion on any number of connectors. Or
just plain power failure. If the power goes out I can simply walk out in
the SUNLIGHT, read the paper chart and eye up the navigation markers.

The point is that none of them work well enough to be consider 'exclusive'
of the others.

Your fears come from your lack of understanding of
the basic principles of navigation.

And your naivete regarding possible interference with GPS is likewise
lacking in understanding.

Its clear that you are one of the old geezers who thinks its a sin to
use
anything but compass and paper map. You think this way because thats all
you
know.

You're a fool if you think you know my level of experience. You're
fishing
to insult the intelligence of the group but all you're doing is painting
yourself the idiot.

While I agree that electronic charting is
*definitely* worth using it's not without issues.

Again, what issues would that be? Its interesting how vague your
language
gets when telling the world how much you hate electronic navigation. You
don't want to admit that the only problem is that you fear it because
you
don't understand it.

Again, see earlier fool comment. I understand electronic navigation quite
well, thank you and I like using it whenever possible. But it's
ridiculous
to think it's and end-all, beat-all solution for navigation.

And when it comes to safety I'm not sure I'd even bother
arguing for 'saving'. Penny-wise, pound-foolish, more or less.

You seem to be a rather slow individual.

And you're an arrogant ass, but I'm sure you've heard that before.

The idea that GPS navigation does
not require buoys in any way in the water or on a chart has completely
soared over your head. Your mind clearly has not come to grips with that
basic fact. Instead you spend this post arguing that buoys should stay
for
redundancy. This is a perfectly good reason to keep buoys in the water
but
has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. Considering
your
inability to think and process written material in this thread, I'm glad
I
won't be riding on any of your boats. It doesn't sound safe.

Wow, how stunningly immature. Instead of carrying out a rational
conversation all you can do it stoop to insulting anyone that contradicts
you? Wake us up when you grow up and learn how to converse.

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
t...

And let's hope they actually start discusssing the security risks
associated with this idea.

What security risks would that be?

Invalid data being improperly uploaded from an authorized source.

Thats what Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and data authentication is for.
Its clear that you don't understand these concepts either.



I sure hope not. Electronic devices fail and radio frequencies can be
jammed or interferred with.

Paper maps can be misprinted. They can get destroyed accidentally, and
buoys
can be moved by storms and collisions. A compass can be damaged and also
interfered with by magnetic sources on the ship or in the waters. They
too
are not 100% reliable.

And a chartplotter's electronics can die at hundreds of different points
of
failure. Even something as simple a blown backlight on the LCD can render
it useless. To say nothing of corrosion on any number of connectors. Or
just plain power failure.

So in your own special immature way you are arguing that both systems have
failure points. Duh.

If the power goes out I can simply walk out in
the SUNLIGHT, read the paper chart and eye up the navigation markers.

This is why I'm afraid to ride on a boat that you are piloting. You don't
even seem to understand that its dark for half the day.



The point is that none of them work well enough to be consider 'exclusive'
of the others.

Read the subject line of this thread again. Its about using GPS to track
buoys.



Your fears come from your lack of understanding of
the basic principles of navigation.

And your naivete regarding possible interference with GPS is likewise
lacking in understanding.

You have a lot of courage to use the word "naivete" after your comment above
about using daylight to read your paper map. Its clear that you purchased a
GPS at your local boat store and have learned how to push a few of the
buttons and now here you are trying to pretend you are an expert.

How many times has your GPS quit working due to interference? Are you even
aware of what is being done to reduce that problem? Do you even know what
RAIM is?



Its clear that you are one of the old geezers who thinks its a sin to use
anything but compass and paper map. You think this way because thats all
you
know.

You're a fool if you think you know my level of experience.

Your level of experience is clear from the immature and emotional things you
say.

You're fishing
to insult the intelligence of the group but all you're doing is painting
yourself the idiot.

You shouldn't try to hide behind the group now that you have been shown to
not know much about what you are talking about. I see no one running to your
aid or trying to defend your emotional statements. You are simply an old
geezer who jumps at the chance to declare how you love paper maps and don't
trust GPS because you don't understand GPS and now you are upset that I
dared to point out that fact.



While I agree that electronic charting is
*definitely* worth using it's not without issues.

Again, what issues would that be? Its interesting how vague your language
gets when telling the world how much you hate electronic navigation. You
don't want to admit that the only problem is that you fear it because you
don't understand it.

Again, see earlier fool comment. I understand electronic navigation quite
well, thank you...

No. You don't. You have demonstrated that you don't.

and I like using it whenever possible.

You are clearly an appliance operator. That's all you understand. Being an
appliance operator is not a bad thing in itself, just don't try to pretend
in this group that you understand anything about the basics of navigation.

But it's ridiculous
to think it's and end-all, beat-all solution for navigation.

GPS navigation does not require buoys. It never did and it never will. The
rest of your mindless bleating is against a straw man of your own making.



And when it comes to safety I'm not sure I'd even bother
arguing for 'saving'. Penny-wise, pound-foolish, more or less.

You seem to be a rather slow individual.

And you're an arrogant ass, but I'm sure you've heard that before.

Only from old geezers who enjoy lecturing the rest of the world about how
smart they are and how map and compass is the "end-all, beat-all solution
for navigation" when the truth is that map and compass is all they learned
and all they are capable of knowing. I'm still laughing from your claim that
when your GPS fails you can simply take your paper map out into the
SUNLIGHT. LOL!



The idea that GPS navigation does
not require buoys in any way in the water or on a chart has completely
soared over your head. Your mind clearly has not come to grips with that
basic fact. Instead you spend this post arguing that buoys should stay
for
redundancy. This is a perfectly good reason to keep buoys in the water
but
has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. Considering
your
inability to think and process written material in this thread, I'm glad
I
won't be riding on any of your boats. It doesn't sound safe.

Wow, how stunningly immature.

Yes, just what I was thinking about you and your fetish for paper map and
compass.

I see the concept that GPS does not require buoys is still way over your
head.

Instead of carrying out a rational
conversation all you can do it stoop to insulting anyone that contradicts
you? Wake us up when you grow up and learn how to converse.

Learn how to read a post before you respond to it unless you wish to be
shown the fool.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Bill Kearney" wrote in
t:

If the power goes out I can simply walk out in
the SUNLIGHT, read the paper chart and eye up the navigation markers.



If the power "goes out", the chartplotter will be the least of our
worries....(c;


I wonder when he will figure out that the power can also go out at night.
LOL!

The rantings of paper map and compass geezers always crack me up.

Thats what Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and data authentication is for.
Its clear that you don't understand these concepts either.

I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

You shouldn't try to hide behind the group now that you have been shown to
not know much about what you are talking about. I see no one running to
your
aid or trying to defend your emotional statements. You are simply an old
geezer who jumps at the chance to declare how you love paper maps and
don't
trust GPS because you don't understand GPS and now you are upset that I
dared to point out that fact.

You really are an arrogant one, aren't you?

It's not about not understanding GPS or liking charts instead of it. It's
about disagreeing with your blanket statements about GPS being a complete
replacement for them, in an exclusionary manner. All the rest of your
posting is just geared toward trying to shout down anyone that doesn't buy
into your delusional beliefs.

Only from old geezers who enjoy lecturing the rest of the world about how
smart they are and how map and compass is the "end-all, beat-all solution
for navigation" when the truth is that map and compass is all they learned
and all they are capable of knowing.

Were are you getting this whole 'geezer' issue from? What're you, a
teenager still living in your parent's basement? It's not about lecturing
anyone that paper and buoys are "better". More than binary arguments about
one OR the other are ill-conceived.

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
t...

Thats what Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and data authentication is
for.
Its clear that you don't understand these concepts either.

I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

No. You are not. If you were then you would have mentioned it in your first
response. Nice try at pretending you are smart but sorry, no cigar.


You shouldn't try to hide behind the group now that you have been shown
to
not know much about what you are talking about. I see no one running to
your
aid or trying to defend your emotional statements. You are simply an old
geezer who jumps at the chance to declare how you love paper maps and
don't
trust GPS because you don't understand GPS and now you are upset that I
dared to point out that fact.

You really are an arrogant one, aren't you?

I am simply pointing out how obvious it is that you don't understand the
basic principles of navigation, GPS, electronic charting and PKI and you
also don't seem to understand that you can't read a paper map in the dark
yet here you are in this group lecturing people about how great paper maps
are. I would say it is you who is arrogant. You might learn a lot more if
you stop talking and listen for a moment.


It's not about not understanding GPS or liking charts instead of it. It's
about disagreeing with your blanket statements about GPS being a complete
replacement for them, in an exclusionary manner. All the rest of your
posting is just geared toward trying to shout down anyone that doesn't buy
into your delusional beliefs.

Only from old geezers who enjoy lecturing the rest of the world about how
smart they are and how map and compass is the "end-all, beat-all solution
for navigation" when the truth is that map and compass is all they
learned
and all they are capable of knowing.

Were are you getting this whole 'geezer' issue from?

From your ill considered and uneducated outbursts in this thread that have
nothing to do with the point being made which was that GPS never has
required buoys and never will.

What're you, a
teenager still living in your parent's basement? It's not about lecturing
anyone that paper and buoys are "better". More than binary arguments
about
one OR the other are ill-conceived.

Belt and suspenders. Lots of tubby old geezers wear them both. You can
continue to lecture the whole group about how you think that maps and
compasses and buoys are required or the maritime industry will come to some
sort of horrible destruction but I am personally getting bored with your
shallowness and inability to read.

I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

No. You are not. If you were then you would have mentioned it in your
first
response. Nice try at pretending you are smart but sorry, no cigar.

Ted, you're grasping at straws. It's apparent you've got some sort of ego
trip you're trying to sustain. It's pathetic, you should seek help managing
this anti-social behavior.

From your ill considered and uneducated outbursts in this thread that have
nothing to do with the point being made which was that GPS never has
required buoys and never will.

Uh, you seem desperate to try and attach that thinking to me and I've never
espoused it.

Belt and suspenders. Lots of tubby old geezers wear them both. You can
continue to lecture the whole group about how you think that maps and
compasses and buoys are required or the maritime industry will come to
some
sort of horrible destruction but I am personally getting bored with your
shallowness and inability to read.

Again, you seem bent on trying to prove your point based on little more than
insults. I'm certainly not lecturing anyone on using any one solution over
another, there's room (and need) for all of them. That you have tried to
turn it into some sort of flamefest is pathetic.

Ted wrote:

snip
Now that we have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore? Aren't you really
interested in where the channel is located and not the location of some buoy
that also happens to be trying to show you where the channel is located?
When did buoys become a destinatiion in and of themselves instead of merely
a source of nautical information guiding us around underwater obstructions?

Ted,

Let me ask, have you ever actually spent any time doing coastal
navigation? And if so, what navigation resources were available to you
and which ones did you use?

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
...
I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

No. You are not. If you were then you would have mentioned it in your
first
response. Nice try at pretending you are smart but sorry, no cigar.

Ted, you're grasping at straws.

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys. Then you
jumped in and announced that buoys and paper maps in the sunlight are better
than GPS - a complete and total non sequitur. You clearly don't know much at
all about GPS but still felt the urgent need to jump in here and profess
your geezer loyalty to map and compass and buoy. It wouldn't be so pathetic
if a thousand geezers before you hadn't also tried to lecture the world
about how map and compass and buoy is the only safe way to navigate the
water.

It's apparent you've got some sort of ego
trip you're trying to sustain. It's pathetic, you should seek help
managing
this anti-social behavior.

You are projecting your own emotional issues upon others with the above
statement. Stay on topic and say something intelligent if you don't want to
be called to task.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Ted" wrote in news:adL%f.3093$BS2.2461
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

The rantings of paper map and compass geezers always crack me up.



I carry my sextant and books aboard, but merely for amusement to see if I
can get even close to the four GPS receivers' positions with all the
thrashing around out there. I even have an artificial horizon for
practice
at home. Everyone should know how to use the old nav instruments, but,
frankly, even at the dock, I'm not even close, most of the time...(c;

keeping and using map compass and sextant is not the problem. Constantly
lecturing the world about how your favorite old technique must always be
better than any newer technique is the problem.

I still have a slide rule but don't seem to ever feel the need to lecture
others that electronic calculators are inferior to slide rules.

Keep your sextant. Use it often. Teach others how to use it. Until the
stars burn out, It is still a valid technique.



We do have a Yeoman plotter. It was the portable XL my captain left in
his
truck and all the hot glue it was held together with melted over in
Hotlanta. He was going to junk it, but I took it apart and salvaged the
scanning board, puck and computer daughterboard out of it. I used double-
sided industrial-strength foam tape to mount it to the bottom of the
mahogany chart table top. It fits great. The puck has no trouble getting
a good, accurate scan through the wood, the entire chart book folded up so
only the chart we want is on top. The chart table fiddles are used to
hold
the book, or chart, in place. Add a velum cover to draw on and that's our
paper chart plot of where we've been and, should the unthinkable happen
and
four GPS receivers, 3 chart plotters and a Dell Latitude notebook all
crash
at once...we'll have an accurate chart to start plotting my awful sextant
reading by.

It sounds like you have a good backup plan for when all your GPSs fail.
Good for you. But while your GPS systems are working you still will not need
buoys. You should not be navigating to buoys with your GPS and buoys become
not much more than a collision hazard on the water while you have a
functioning GPS aboard. I wonder how many people have struck a buoy by
accident vs the number of people who have had a boating accident due to
failure of GPS. If anyone has data like that I would love to see it.


Of course, we could just sail West until we bump into the United States of
America. That doesn't take a PhD in navigation to find...(c;


When all else fails you, its common sense like that (not expensive
electronics or fancy paper charts) which gets you out of "hot water".

"Larry" wrote in message
...
(snip)

All this fighting reminds me of the guys on ham radio. The old geezers
all tell us only CW (Morse Code) will be useful...

One thing is certain, geezers are consistant to a fault.