"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
Now that we have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore? Aren't you really
interested in where the channel is located and not the location of some
buoy that also happens to be trying to show you where the channel is
located? When did buoys become a destination in and of themselves instead
of merely a source of nautical information guiding us around underwater
obstructions?

Ted,

Let me ask, have you ever actually spent any time doing coastal
navigation? And if so, what navigation resources were available to you
and which ones did you use?

I used pilotage until GPS came along - a map and compass and dead reckoning
with an occasional reference to a landmark on shore confirmed my position. I
use range lights and my depth sounder to verify my location in the channel.

See figure 13-10 on the following link.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/cgaux/Pub...tcrew/ch13.pdf

I have a directional antenna to track the Coast Guard's medium frequency
radiobeacons but have never needed to use it - never got lost.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/ftp/RADIONAV/rbeacon.txt

One can also track AM radio broadcast stations with this device if needed.

When offshore, if you are able to remember which ocean you are in, then its
not very difficult to know what direction on the compass land can be found.
I measure distance in gallons of fuel. While heading offshore, when one
third of my fuel supply is exhausted then I'm as far out to sea as is
allowed by the skipper (me). After GPS, my map and compass stay in my
emergency kit. They haven't seen the light of day in years. I have only lost
the GPS signal in two places on earth - north of the royal observatory in
Greenwich England and in the harbor west of Naples Italy.

Years ago, before GPS, a friend of mine returning from sea had an unexpected
magnetic source on his boat that affected his compass and took him fifty
miles off course. This "compass failure" almost ran him out of fuel before
he reached shore. I don't put much faith in the cry of the geezers about the
undisputed reliability of the simple magnetic compass and the paper map. I
don't believe that most of them even go boating. They just sit on the
internet and run their mouth.

"Ted" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
Now that we have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore? Aren't you really
interested in where the channel is located and not the location of some
buoy that also happens to be trying to show you where the channel is
located? When did buoys become a destination in and of themselves
instead of merely a source of nautical information guiding us around
underwater obstructions?

Ted,

Let me ask, have you ever actually spent any time doing coastal
navigation? And if so, what navigation resources were available to you
and which ones did you use?

I used pilotage until GPS came along - a map and compass and dead
reckoning with an occasional reference to a landmark on shore confirmed my
position. I use range lights and my depth sounder to verify my location in
the channel.

See figure 13-10 on the following link.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/cgaux/Pub...tcrew/ch13.pdf

I have a directional antenna to track the Coast Guard's medium frequency
radiobeacons but have never needed to use it - never got lost.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/ftp/RADIONAV/rbeacon.txt

One can also track AM radio broadcast stations with this device if needed.

When offshore, if you are able to remember which ocean you are in, then
its not very difficult to know what direction on the compass land can be
found. I measure distance in gallons of fuel. While heading offshore,
when one third of my fuel supply is exhausted then I'm as far out to sea
as is allowed by the skipper (me). After GPS, my map and compass stay in
my emergency kit. They haven't seen the light of day in years. I have only
lost the GPS signal in two places on earth - north of the royal
observatory in Greenwich England and in the harbor west of Naples Italy.

Years ago, before GPS, a friend of mine returning from sea had an
unexpected magnetic source on his boat that affected his compass and took
him fifty miles off course. This "compass failure" almost ran him out of
fuel before he reached shore. I don't put much faith in the cry of the
geezers about the undisputed reliability of the simple magnetic compass
and the paper map. I don't believe that most of them even go boating.
They just sit on the internet and run their mouth.


By the way... I have also been in weather bad enough that my paper chart
fell off the table into the 4 inches of salt water on the floor and then
floated away into the engine compartment while my GPS stayed firmly bolted
to the wall in front of the helm. After an experience like that you might
be able to imagine why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly
sing the praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine
navigation and why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

"Ted" wrote in news:zN40g.2472$An2.2251
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys.

AT some point in the future, when the wireless technology exists where
your chartplotter will connect with the mapping agency for all the
updates, every time you turn it on (sort of like Windows Update does when
you turn your laptop on)...at that point, I would agree. But, alas, that
is far into the future as boating crawls along at a technology snails
pace.

The boys went out in the bouy tender, last Friday, and moved that bouy
out 300' farther into what USED to be the channel, before the tide
decided to make a low tide beach out of it for the kids to enjoy. This
marks the now 300' narrower channel so you don't run "Titanic" aground,
creating your own hazard to navigation.

The bouy gives immediate data to the more competent sailors. "Stay on
THAT side of me, or your gonna spend the night.", he says to me by mental
telepathy. Just as soon as the bouy boys left it in its new position,
all mariners, even those not really mariners, had its instructions to
stay clear on THAT side of it.

Your chartplotter/GPS has data in it that's at least 3 years old, by the
time the bouy's new position grinds its way through, first, the
government bureaucracy, gets printed up in a Notice to Mariners, gets
picked up by the mapping company, gets plotted on the appropriate chart,
gets charted into a C-Map ROM....then, after 2 years of procrastination
on your part trying NOT to spend all that money they want for an upgrade
to the old C-Map ROM you're using now, gets bought by you and actually
shows up in the new position on your display.

Of course, during those 3 years, the bouy boys have moved the damned bouy
12 more times as the tide keeps making changes to the low tide beach the
kids are enjoying, there at Dead Man's Bend. ANY data now available
about Dead Man's Bend on ANY C-Map chart is REAL OLD AND ALWAYS OUT OF
DATE! That's not true of that bouy you show so much disdain for. Its
warning is as instantaneous as it takes the bouy boys to move it.

Please don't tell me you navigate narrow channels with GPS chartplotters.
If you do, I wanna be FAR away from you....there in the dark. Don't
forget to leave the anchor light on when, not if, you're aground to warn
the rest of us.

Now, at some point, technology will overcome the resistance maritime
interests have to its capabilities. Just like AIS is doing now, 10 years
after a ham radio operator invented APRS, there'll come a time when the
gears will grind out a wireless data link, running right off that bouy's
batteries, maybe, but certainly from the shore station wireless data
link. Your chartplotter won't have a $400 CDROM or a $300 chart plug.
It'll have a $400 SUBSCRIPTION, which will, like Norton Internet
Security, allow you to connect to the planet's nav data clearinghouse
server, very profitably run by some overpriced contractor selling you
data your taxes created...you know, like weather data is. Before you go
to the boat, even, you can logon the laptop, or that new wireless-
equipped GPS handheld and they will automatically call the server,
updating their hard drive databases of every shoal on the planet. Your
boat's chart will look exactly like the master chart the bouy boys
updated from THEIR wireless computer aboard the bouy tender, probably
before the bouy anchor touched bottom again.

When you turn on the boat's fancy new GPS chart plotter, it'll spin up
its hard drive, logon to the nav data server, and upgrade itself with all
the latest charts, before you get the AC power cord wound up around the
dock post so you can go sailing. By the time you leave the dock, your
charts will be their charts....not their charts from 3 years ago.

Until that time....PLEASE, stay on THAT side of the bouy, not what's on
your screen!

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Ted" wrote in news:zN40g.2472$An2.2251
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys.

AT some point in the future, when the wireless technology exists where
your chartplotter will connect with the mapping agency for all the
updates, every time you turn it on (sort of like Windows Update does when
you turn your laptop on)...at that point, I would agree. But, alas, that
is far into the future as boating crawls along at a technology snails
pace.

The boys went out in the bouy tender, last Friday, and moved that bouy
out 300' farther into what USED to be the channel, before the tide
decided to make a low tide beach out of it for the kids to enjoy. This
marks the now 300' narrower channel so you don't run "Titanic" aground,
creating your own hazard to navigation.

The bouy gives immediate data to the more competent sailors. "Stay on
THAT side of me, or your gonna spend the night.", he says to me by mental
telepathy. Just as soon as the bouy boys left it in its new position,
all mariners, even those not really mariners, had its instructions to
stay clear on THAT side of it.

Your chartplotter/GPS has data in it that's at least 3 years old, by the
time the bouy's new position grinds its way through, first, the
government bureaucracy, gets printed up in a Notice to Mariners, gets
picked up by the mapping company, gets plotted on the appropriate chart,
gets charted into a C-Map ROM....then, after 2 years of procrastination
on your part trying NOT to spend all that money they want for an upgrade
to the old C-Map ROM you're using now, gets bought by you and actually
shows up in the new position on your display.

Of course, during those 3 years, the bouy boys have moved the damned bouy
12 more times as the tide keeps making changes to the low tide beach the
kids are enjoying, there at Dead Man's Bend. ANY data now available
about Dead Man's Bend on ANY C-Map chart is REAL OLD AND ALWAYS OUT OF
DATE! That's not true of that bouy you show so much disdain for. Its
warning is as instantaneous as it takes the bouy boys to move it.

Please don't tell me you navigate narrow channels with GPS chartplotters.
If you do, I wanna be FAR away from you....there in the dark. Don't
forget to leave the anchor light on when, not if, you're aground to warn
the rest of us.

Now, at some point, technology will overcome the resistance maritime
interests have to its capabilities. Just like AIS is doing now, 10 years
after a ham radio operator invented APRS, there'll come a time when the
gears will grind out a wireless data link, running right off that bouy's
batteries, maybe, but certainly from the shore station wireless data
link. Your chartplotter won't have a $400 CDROM or a $300 chart plug.
It'll have a $400 SUBSCRIPTION, which will, like Norton Internet
Security, allow you to connect to the planet's nav data clearinghouse
server, very profitably run by some overpriced contractor selling you
data your taxes created...you know, like weather data is. Before you go
to the boat, even, you can logon the laptop, or that new wireless-
equipped GPS handheld and they will automatically call the server,
updating their hard drive databases of every shoal on the planet. Your
boat's chart will look exactly like the master chart the bouy boys
updated from THEIR wireless computer aboard the bouy tender, probably
before the bouy anchor touched bottom again.

When you turn on the boat's fancy new GPS chart plotter, it'll spin up
its hard drive, logon to the nav data server, and upgrade itself with all
the latest charts, before you get the AC power cord wound up around the
dock post so you can go sailing. By the time you leave the dock, your
charts will be their charts....not their charts from 3 years ago.

Until that time....PLEASE, stay on THAT side of the bouy, not what's on
your screen!


Are you refering to the buoy before or after the bouy tender boys moved it
because it was in the wrong place?

"ted" wrote in
ink.net:

Are you refering to the buoy before or after the bouy tender boys
moved it because it was in the wrong place?



After.

Ted wrote:

snip
I don't put much faith in the cry of the
geezers about the undisputed reliability of the simple magnetic compass
and the paper map. I don't believe that most of them even go boating.
They just sit on the internet and run their mouth.


snip
..why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly
sing the praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine
navigation and why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

Thanks for the details. You seem a little fixated on older people and
people that use charts. I have nothing against either one of those
groups.

When I go to sea it is usually to deliver someone else's boat and my
focus is to do it without damaging the boat or getting lost. I usually
have at least three frames of reference available for navigation and I
use them all. But I never put my trust in any one of them exclusively.

Coastal Maine is not a good place for relying on one thing, I like the
warm fuzzy feeling I got when I have two or three things telling me that
I probably am where I think I am.

Between the navaids, the chartbook, and the GPS chart plotter, I'm the
only one that has to be right all of the time.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
I don't put much faith in the cry of the geezers about the undisputed
reliability of the simple magnetic compass and the paper map. I don't
believe that most of them even go boating. They just sit on the internet
and run their mouth.


snip
..why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly sing the
praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine navigation and
why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

Thanks for the details. You seem a little fixated on older people and
people that use charts. I have nothing against either one of those
groups.

When I go to sea it is usually to deliver someone else's boat and my focus
is to do it without damaging the boat or getting lost. I usually have at
least three frames of reference available for navigation and I use them
all. But I never put my trust in any one of them exclusively.

Jack, the subject line says "...why do we use GPS to track buoys??"
Do you use your GPS to navigate to buoys?
With how many of them have you collided?


Coastal Maine is not a good place for relying on one thing, I like the
warm fuzzy feeling I got when I have two or three things telling me that I
probably am where I think I am.

Between the navaids, the chartbook, and the GPS chart plotter, I'm the
only one that has to be right all of the time.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"ted" wrote in
ink.net:

Are you refering to the buoy before or after the bouy tender boys
moved it because it was in the wrong place?



After.

So the poor saps who just happened to be sailing by BEFORE the buoy location
was corrected must have been really screwed.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Ted" wrote in news:zN40g.2472$An2.2251
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys.

AT some point in the future, when the wireless technology exists where
your chartplotter will connect with the mapping agency for all the
updates, every time you turn it on (sort of like Windows Update does when
you turn your laptop on)...at that point, I would agree...

Better yet, users of the map data could mark locations on the water as they
arrive where the map appears to be incorrect or they could mark a new found
hazard not yet shown on the chart and that information gets uploaded back to
the mapping agency for dissemination in the form of mariner reports until
the problem can be investigated, confirmed and the map officially updated.

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

I don't put much faith in the cry of the geezers about the undisputed
reliability of the simple magnetic compass and the paper map. I don't
believe that most of them even go boating. They just sit on the internet
and run their mouth.

..why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly sing the
praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine navigation and
why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

You seem a little fixated on older people and people that use charts.

You haven't been paying attention. I'm a little impatient with geezers who
lecture the maritime world about how they believe that paper maps are the
end-all and be-all of navigation. I have listened to them rant and fuss
over the demise of paper maps for over ten years and its getting old. I use
paper maps myself but never feel the need to lecture the world about paper
maps are the greatest thing that ever will be. I have not yet seen a young
person behaving like a geezer. Its always an older person who has fallen
behind the times and feels threatened by that fact. Its also very often an
overweight older person who is no longer participating in the activity he is
lecturing about. It brings new meaning to the old saying: those who can, do,
and those who can't, teach. (or in this case, lecture)

Take notice of the subject line of this thread. Buoys clutter the chart and
provide a dangerous collision hazard on the water. We have put up with this
hazard for years because in the past we needed buoys. With the arrival of
GPS, they should be removed.

http://www.california-car-accident-l...s/pic_boat.jpg