In article , Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article WN_Yf.1391$_u1.990@pd7tw2no, "surfnturf"
wrote:

While on the topic of antennas, what do you all think about the issue of RF
exposure and the recomendation that omni directional antennas with a gain of
under 9 dB be mounted 5 meters (15 ft) above deck level?

Even the 1 meter above head level given as minimum height for the base of
the antenna seems to be ignored on many boats.

surfnturf



RF Radiation is NOT ever going to be a problem on ANY non-commercial
vessel. Period. None of the radiators that one can buy and install
ever even come close to maximum RF Radiations Power Densities considered
the Safe Levels. The same is true for most commercial Marine
installations. My only concern would be to make sure that any MF/HF
Antenna system be well insulated at any place where a person could come
in contact with it. GTO-15 certainly would do this job for wire
antennas, or a nonconductive insulating layer applied to any other
antenna section that is within reach of a humans. The worst that could
happen, should a person come in contact with the above, while
transmitting, is that they could get an RF Burn, that is going to smart

When I was in the Army, I would test my transmitter/antenna system
out by touching the antenna to get a burn and I think I learned that from others, don't
remember. If it burned, then it was OK. The antenna was a 1/4 wave vertical and transmitted
to the Northrop drone planes. I later made a separate box to have a lamp indicator
when placed near the antenna. The hing was, there was no indiction on the transmitter
if a cable connection was bad.

When I was on a Carnival cruise in 1986, I ventured up to the radio room. Took me back,
I saw a man using a bug or some kind of key, sending CW. The antenna
wire came out of the rack, up the wall, along side of which was a light bulb flashing in tune with
the CW. I thought it was pretty neat.

greg

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
In article WN_Yf.1391$_u1.990@pd7tw2no, "surfnturf"
wrote:

While on the topic of antennas, what do you all think about the issue of
RF
exposure and the recomendation that omni directional antennas with a
gain of
under 9 dB be mounted 5 meters (15 ft) above deck level?

Even the 1 meter above head level given as minimum height for the base
of
the antenna seems to be ignored on many boats.

surfnturf



RF Radiation is NOT ever going to be a problem on ANY non-commercial
vessel. Period. None of the radiators that one can buy and install
ever even come close to maximum RF Radiations Power Densities considered
the Safe Levels. The same is true for most commercial Marine
installations. My only concern would be to make sure that any MF/HF
Antenna system be well insulated at any place where a person could come
in contact with it. GTO-15 certainly would do this job for wire
antennas, or a nonconductive insulating layer applied to any other
antenna section that is within reach of a humans. The worst that could
happen, should a person come in contact with the above, while
transmitting, is that they could get an RF Burn, that is going to smart
for a few days, but heck, an operator can get that, from a MF/HF Radio
that doesn't have an adiquate RF Ground, from the Mic Hangup Button.

Old Chief Lynn, will certainly testify to the above.....

Military Vessels are a completely different can of worms, and they ALL
have proceedures, and Operational Rules that are in place to protect
operators and others who work in proximitry to the Radiating Surfaces.

Bruce in alaska

My humble opinion is that the radiation from the antenna of a 25 watt
VHF transmitter probably doesn't do a person much good. However when
considers how long the transmitting continues, it is probably nothing to
worry about. (unless you have completely run out of things to worry about)
How long do you hold the mic button down on an average cruise, anyway?

Radiation from MF/HF transmitting antennas probably poses equally
little to fear. But as Bruce points out, exposed wires and terminals can
bite! And the smoke from RF burns on your nose, ears or fingers smells bad
too.

It would impress visitors to the radio room when the operator would
hold a fully lit 40 watt fluorescent tube in his hands, with no wires
attached.

A lead pencil to draw RF arcs was much safer, and was a good indication
that something coming out of the transmitter. And was a dandy tuning aid,
too. Just tune for longest arc.

Old Chief Lynn

"surfnturf" wrote in news:WN_Yf.1391$_u1.990@pd7tw2no:

While on the topic of antennas, what do you all think about the issue
of RF exposure and the recomendation that omni directional antennas
with a gain of under 9 dB be mounted 5 meters (15 ft) above deck
level?

Even the 1 meter above head level given as minimum height for the base
of the antenna seems to be ignored on many boats.


I'm 60 years old. I got my ham license when I was 11 in 1957 because the
ham I used to pester to death to use his equipment and license figured,
rightly, that was the only way HE was ever going to get on ham radio
again without me in the way.

I've run everything from 1,500 watt HF teletype, CW, digital modes, AM,
SSB on the HF ham bands, creating fields so strong the hall light in one
house use to light up with SSB every time you talked on the mic. I used
to build HF linear amps it took 4 people to carry...(c; I've run over
80KW effective radiated power on VHF/UHF for things like bouncing signals
off the moon, long haul troposcatter where lots of power is required,
etc. Your skin got hot if you stood in front of it. I've operated an HF
mobile SSB station at 650 watts output on all the bands, in fields so
strong the dash lights in the car glowed from the wiring picking up the
intense field.

I've been around broadcast transmitters up to 100KW on FM and 25
megawatts on UHF-TV (ERP). They radiate an amazing array of RF, Xrays
from the intense voltages applied to the klystron tubes that are longer
than you are tall. I've climbed AM radio towers to replace the light
bulbs. AM radio antenna IS the tower, itself. I've been on that tower
with the transmitters running full power....5KW, 10KW. You learn quick
not to touch the OTHER side of any insulator you come to to keep from
burning your hands. I've been in the transmitters with the cabinet open
trying to figure out what's arcing at 5KV, 10KV, 25KV from a power supply
that looks like a substation. You can hear the RF "hissing" in there...
(c;

I'm 60. I had one trip to the hospital to retrieve a kidney stone back
in the 80's. I drink distilled water, now, because it HURT! I've always
been, basically, kind of ugly, but that was genetics, not RF's fault...

I'm still sailing and in good health....(c;

RF is dangerous. Too much RF from a cellphone, for instance, causes the
cellphone to occupy the channel over too wide an area, reducing company
revenues per square mile. So, we generate a public panic that cellphones
are too powerful and are causing terrible cancers over your ears. The
public sucks that up like a sponge....and loses its mind allowing the
cellphone companies to turn their power levels WAY down so the phone
range just sucks something awful. New phones run .15 watts, tops.
Cellphone companies are thrilled...revenues are way up!

If RF is deadly, then we MUST turn off all commercial transmitters,
immediately! That 100KW FM rap station down the street is killing you!

If we're running out of oil, we need to ground all airplanes, stop buses
and trains and stay home to conserve, right?

Neither will ever be implemented, of course. It's about the money...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"surfnturf" wrote in news:WN_Yf.1391$_u1.990@pd7tw2no:

While on the topic of antennas, what do you all think about the issue
of RF exposure and the recomendation that omni directional antennas
with a gain of under 9 dB be mounted 5 meters (15 ft) above deck
level?

Even the 1 meter above head level given as minimum height for the base
of the antenna seems to be ignored on many boats.


I'm 60 years old. I got my ham license when I was 11 in 1957 because the
ham I used to pester to death to use his equipment and license figured,
rightly, that was the only way HE was ever going to get on ham radio
again without me in the way.

I've run everything from 1,500 watt HF teletype, CW, digital modes, AM,
SSB on the HF ham bands, creating fields so strong the hall light in one
house use to light up with SSB every time you talked on the mic. I used
to build HF linear amps it took 4 people to carry...(c; I've run over
80KW effective radiated power on VHF/UHF for things like bouncing signals
off the moon, long haul troposcatter where lots of power is required,
etc. Your skin got hot if you stood in front of it. I've operated an HF
mobile SSB station at 650 watts output on all the bands, in fields so
strong the dash lights in the car glowed from the wiring picking up the
intense field.

I've been around broadcast transmitters up to 100KW on FM and 25
megawatts on UHF-TV (ERP). They radiate an amazing array of RF, Xrays
from the intense voltages applied to the klystron tubes that are longer
than you are tall. I've climbed AM radio towers to replace the light
bulbs. AM radio antenna IS the tower, itself. I've been on that tower
with the transmitters running full power....5KW, 10KW. You learn quick
not to touch the OTHER side of any insulator you come to to keep from
burning your hands. I've been in the transmitters with the cabinet open
trying to figure out what's arcing at 5KV, 10KV, 25KV from a power supply
that looks like a substation. You can hear the RF "hissing" in there...
(c;

I'm 60. I had one trip to the hospital to retrieve a kidney stone back
in the 80's. I drink distilled water, now, because it HURT! I've always
been, basically, kind of ugly, but that was genetics, not RF's fault...

I'm still sailing and in good health....(c;

RF is dangerous. Too much RF from a cellphone, for instance, causes the
cellphone to occupy the channel over too wide an area, reducing company
revenues per square mile. So, we generate a public panic that cellphones
are too powerful and are causing terrible cancers over your ears. The
public sucks that up like a sponge....and loses its mind allowing the
cellphone companies to turn their power levels WAY down so the phone
range just sucks something awful. New phones run .15 watts, tops.
Cellphone companies are thrilled...revenues are way up!

If RF is deadly, then we MUST turn off all commercial transmitters,
immediately! That 100KW FM rap station down the street is killing you!

If we're running out of oil, we need to ground all airplanes, stop buses
and trains and stay home to conserve, right?

Neither will ever be implemented, of course. It's about the money...


Hey, Bruce, if this is what RF did to Larry, maybe we should take a closer
look at it's harmful effects! (OK....... just joking)
Old Chief Lynn

In article ,
"Lynn Coffelt" wrote:


Hey, Bruce, if this is what RF did to Larry, maybe we should take a closer
look at it's harmful effects! (OK....... just joking)
Old Chief Lynn

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far....I have always maintined that
Marine Radars cause for physical harm, by hitting folks in the head with
rotating antenna, then from ANY preceived RF Radiation cause. I do
know a couple of Norwiegens (SquareHeads) that do have a few lumps
from mounting antennas up next to the Radar Antenna Units on some
of the bigger Crabbers and Draggers.....

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
(GregS) wrote:



When I was in the Army, I would test my transmitter/antenna system
out by touching the antenna to get a burn and I think I learned that from
others, don't
remember. If it burned, then it was OK. The antenna was a 1/4 wave vertical
and transmitted
to the Northrop drone planes. I later made a separate box to have a lamp
indicator
when placed near the antenna. The hing was, there was no indiction on the
transmitter
if a cable connection was bad.

When I was on a Carnival cruise in 1986, I ventured up to the radio room.
Took me back,
I saw a man using a bug or some kind of key, sending CW. The antenna
wire came out of the rack, up the wall, along side of which was a light bulb
flashing in tune with
the CW. I thought it was pretty neat.

greg


For SOLAS Inspected vessels an RF Indicator is part of the Required
Equipment for each Transmitter. This is a device that indicates that RF
Energy is present at the Antenna Port of the transmitter. I learned
very early in my career that an NE2 Neon Light taped to the antenna
just above the antenna tuner, would light up, when the transmitter was
in operation. These cost $.20 each, and the FCC Inspectors would accept
them, as fullfilling that requirement. For VHF's however, we always
used the Radio Shack FS1 Field Strength Meter/SWR Bridge, which used to
be $9.95, back in the day. I understand that these are now very hard to
find, and I am not sure what folks are using on SOLAS Inspected vessels
these days. Maybe Lynn knows.....


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote:
For SOLAS Inspected vessels an RF Indicator is part of the Required
Equipment for each Transmitter. This is a device that indicates that RF
Energy is present at the Antenna Port of the transmitter. I learned
very early in my career that an NE2 Neon Light taped to the antenna
just above the antenna tuner, would light up, when the transmitter was
in operation. These cost $.20 each, and the FCC Inspectors would accept
them, as fullfilling that requirement. For VHF's however, we always
used the Radio Shack FS1 Field Strength Meter/SWR Bridge, which used to
be $9.95, back in the day. I understand that these are now very hard to
find, and I am not sure what folks are using on SOLAS Inspected vessels
these days. Maybe Lynn knows.....


Bruce in alaska

RF indicators: Yes, we've put on a few Radio Shack SWR bridges as well
as some Vanco's, which came in a handy vertical case configuration. I've got
a Vanco in my 10 meter coax now.... it was put there to tune my attic
dipole. (before I got my snazzy MFJ-259)
I've never done this newly authorized contract SOLAS inspection by
myself. When I was still in the business, the FCC's field engineer did the
inspecting, and I was hired to tag along and keep discrepancies from
becoming open warfare. Of course if I was the regular servicing tech, there
weren't and discrepancies. Yoou Betcha! Wasn't Zinns, or something like
that, the nice guy that liked to go to a nice place for lunch and tell
inspection humor stories? He was my favorite inspector.
Old Chief Lynn

Bruce in Alaska wrote in news:bruceg-
:

I learned
very early in my career that an NE2 Neon Light taped to the antenna
just above the antenna tuner, would light up, when the transmitter was
in operation.

Just unplug any florescent tube from one of the cabin lights. Tape it to
the antenna about where the guests hang onto the insulated backstay. At
150 watts it's quite bright in the dark and modulated by the mic audio very
nicely.

Have a nontechie guest hold a florescent tube in his/her hand and move it
up near the antenna while you're on the air. Great fun to watch their
faces when it lights up in their hands.

Of course, it's more fun at 10KW. They don't need to be near the
antenna....(c; Just hand them the lit tube you've been holding when they
come around the corner....(c; "Here, hold this a minute, wouldya? I'm
trying to tune this transmitter and need two hands."

"Lynn Coffelt" wrote in news:e16m9n$vnv$1
@emma.aioe.org:

Wasn't Zinns, or something like
that, the nice guy that liked to go to a nice place for lunch and tell
inspection humor stories? He was my favorite inspector.


You boys needed to meet Mr Sheehan, the FCC inspector from Savannah. His
boss had to go retrieve him from a small town lockup when he barged into
the radio room of a small town sheriff's office demanding to see the
transmitter without identifying himself, properly.

Over here, we all miss Mr Sheehan....(c;

In article ,
"Lynn Coffelt" wrote:


RF indicators: Yes, we've put on a few Radio Shack SWR bridges as well
as some Vanco's, which came in a handy vertical case configuration. I've got
a Vanco in my 10 meter coax now.... it was put there to tune my attic
dipole. (before I got my snazzy MFJ-259)
I've never done this newly authorized contract SOLAS inspection by
myself. When I was still in the business, the FCC's field engineer did the
inspecting, and I was hired to tag along and keep discrepancies from
becoming open warfare. Of course if I was the regular servicing tech, there
weren't and discrepancies. Yoou Betcha! Wasn't Zinns, or something like
that, the nice guy that liked to go to a nice place for lunch and tell
inspection humor stories? He was my favorite inspector.
Old Chief Lynn


Bob Zinns was one of the best FCC Engineers that worked out of the
Seattle Field Office. I think that Pete Baliogenn, was before your time,
but he was the "*******" that always found something to RDI (Repaired
during Inspection) during any inspection. He carried a Black Book, that
we all called, the "Baliogenn Bible", that had all the non-Rule Rules in
it, and he could ALWAYS find something to bitch about. I figured out,
early on, that if Pete was coming to do an Inspection, that I needed to
leave at least one "Glaring" ommission for him to find, that was easy to
fix on the spot, and after he found it, and I fixed it, he would be alot
more reasonable about the rest of the stuff. Years later, when I joined
the FCC, as a Resident Field Agent, I did my initial training with the
Seattle Field Office, and had Gary Solsby as my Training Officer. I
still drop in on those guys, and gals when I get down that way.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @